Tobi vs Madara

[knife eater]

Now that we have all seen edo Madara, what's his point? He is a pawn. Tobi already has rennegan, sharingan, powers and energies from both so6p lineage, sealed biiju chakra, knowledge and experience of events transpired since the fight between Madara and Hashirama. Madara is just a stepping stone for Tobi on his way to greater power; Tobi is the real deal. =p

[Gaara Kazekage]

Well, some are spreading their theory that Tobi might be "Madara" but not the original ofc, because he just got summoned, but a clone or something. But this kinda makes all the situations where mind of matter have triumphed, like Sasori, Orochimaru. Since they prove the body is useless if comparison to the soul, if Tobi is a Madara clone or something then it would be weird and colliding with the soul thing.

But I wonder why Tobi would have gotten so scared/shocked by Kabuto knowing if it won't matter, this is going to be some painful time plundering about this until the answer is shared with us.

[POW]

Based on Edo Madara's reaction its almost like he expected to be revived and if you take Tobi comments after Nagato died about how the Revival jutsu was being saved for him there was some plan involving his resurrection.

Trying to compare powers in a match up is pointless since we have no idea what they are capable of.

[Temperjoke]

What we know about Tobi:

He was responsible for the 9-Tails rampage 16 years ago.

He assisted Itachi with the Uchiha Massacre. (This is up for debate, however, as Itachi is the one who said that it was Madara Uchiha, and when Tobi explained it, it was him. Itachi had taken steps to keep Sasuke away from Tobi/Madara, it's possible that he could have lied in to Sasuke to keep him from assisting Madara/Tobi. Itachi could have been lied to about Tobi's identity too.)

He uses the Sharingan, and possesses an intimate knowledge regarding the Mangekyo Sharingan and the various techniques.

He is able to use Izanagi, which requires "the powers of both the Uchiha and Senju" (http://www.mangareader.net/93-57473-...apter-510.html)

Tobi has called himself Madara Uchiha at several points.

The 4th Hokage thought that he might be Madara Uchiha.

Tobi didn't always wear a mask. Kisame has seen him before without it, and immediately recognized him when Tobi took off his mask. Kisame also called him Madara, but Kisame could have been lied to regarding Tobi's identity.

[mo916]

Well, if the masked man was always Tobi, this means that Madara was not behind the attack of the nine - tailed fox 16 years ago. therefore, the uchiha clan was falsely blamed for it. This tobi basically framed the Uchiha clan.

Also, whats surprising is that even Itachi was fooled by Tobi, the smartest character in the series.

[Rlinfamous]

I still think Tobi is some sort of Madara clone. The question is whether he's been loyally awaiting the return of the original Madara, or has his own ambition. It does seem like he intended to revive Madara with the Rinne-tensei, but the fact is Tobi now has far more power than Madara ever did, unless he's got some HUGE weakness that Madara could exploit.

So what are Tobi's plans for Edo Madara? What does Edo Madara possess that allows Kabuto to use him to blackmail Tobi? Does Edo Madara have both his eyes, or does he possess only his left eye, while Tobi possesses the right eye? For what purpose did the original Madara die/kill himself if he were alive long enough after his battle with Hashirama to know about Nagato?

It's possible that Tobi/Madara had plans to combine, and operate similarly to white/black zetsu. It's possible Tobi is a very advanced Zetsu clone of the original Madara. Tobi, who seems to have Madara's memories, insists that the battle against Hashirama was to obtain a perfect body; perhaps he's simply the "body" that Madara intended to join with, when the time was right. Whatever the case, Tobi has been completely obsessed with becoming a perfect Rikudou.

[Aga bomBa]

okey, let the games begin..

1. Madara talking about Nagato and Tobi saying that he " gave " Nagato the rinnegan, is very close connected. Lets put the little pieces together;

- Madara quoted: " So it finally happened,.. it would appear that little brat Nagato has grown ".

Meaning: Madara had already planned this too happen. Nagato was Madara's link, for bringing him back in the future and KNEW that he couldn't win the battle against Hashirama. THAT'S WHY Madara's intention of fighting Hashirama, was to steal some of 1st. Hokage's DNA, for making the White- Zetzu ( Tobi has clarrified this to Konan, right before she died ).

Tobi saying to Zetzu,.. that Rinne Tensei was meant to him, clarrifies that he speaks as one: Madara and Tobi being ONE, or Tobi is Madara's legacy / little brother, but don't know about that yet. This even makes it harder for us, for understanding what and who Zetzu really is; is it a creation of Madara? Madara had to know him, before his battle with 1st. Hokage.

2. It's pretty obvious now, that we cant under-estimate the knownledge / intelligence of Itachi Uchiha. Him saying that Tobi = Madara, but a shell of his former self is CORRECT and Itachi had to gain important information for knowing that Tobi really is Madara. Let's see:
Madara showed only his left eye, and TOBI is showing from day one, only his left eye.

- I had a crazy idea, back in the days.. that Madara sealed half of his soul / power into his eyes, because he knew that he couldn't own 1st. Hokage. Madara's body was never been found, meaning that TOBI is still Madara, but like Itachi said: a shell of his former self. That's why Tobi is for almost 3/4 of white- zetzu ( his body WAS heavily damaged ) and lived for so long, because A: madara was born with having the strongest chakra of his clan and B: White-zetzu is a chakra source.

I mean: Madara was the first one to awaken EMS.. and who says that he used his extra doujutsu against Hashirama? Lets say that Madara's EMS is his wharping, getting solid jutsu. IF HE HAD USED this technique against 1st. Hokage, then his body wouldn't be that much damaged, right>? Madara probably never used his teleportation, because THAT was his way of disappearing with letting the rest of the world think, that he's dead.

Madara confronted Kisame and Itachi with LONG HAIR.. so it means that his original body is still intact, but he somehow sealed his soul in two parts. Lets face it: Death God ate 1/3 of Oro's soul, Minato sealed half of Kyuubi, Muu splitting himself into two, etc.. it's not that crazy if someone of Madara's calibur, plans this all out.

Madara wanted to be brought back, with Rinne Tensei. Madara knew about So6p + Juubi, history of elder/younger son.. Madara knew what was needed, for being the ultimate shinobi: exactly what Tobi is trying to be. Madara KNEW zetzu before he fought 1st. Hokage and that's why his fight against Hashirama, was pure aimed to steal some of his DNA, just to have the necessary power for controlling Rinnegan + being Juubi's jinchirikuu, Izanagi etc.

[almara]

honestly, there are still way too many variables to make any real assumptions, this is what we know for certain tho: tobi isnt a "real" human as we saw his arm bleeding some weird fluid that apparently wasnt blood, so it could easily be a clone or a creation infused with madara's personality and the edo summoned was the actual madara who died. the theory about "tobi" being a clone of madara or something similar is certainly a valid one, but as i mentioned earlier, it is too soon to know for sure and at this point anything can be true.

personally, with the current info, i think that tobi is infact madara's brother and most of this has been done in order for madara to be resurrected and tobi is merely a created body that might have been created by zetsu for the purpose and has gotten longivity through the senju blood or it is merely a split clone like the one Muu did and resurrecting madara is in order for "tobi" to get his full power that he had while fighting the 1st.

[knife eater]

Well, for the sake of the thread I didn't mean to give the impression I was setting up a shinobi battle between Tobi and Madara but instead who is more likely to be the proper villian and most substantial to the end-game. To me it is as if Madara is wowing us now by getting into the scene but his role is ultimately to be the final piece for Tobi to finally fully power up (if not by merging ala Zetsu then by some sort of weird consuming method). Also, if there was indeed to be a shinobi battle between the two then hands down Tobi. That "former shell" has quite alot of current power and advantageous tools.

[Rlinfamous]

We need to know how Madara died, Who Tobi is, Why Tobi is doing what he's doing, and what the two of them intended to do when Madara was revived. We will also learn how Madara survived his battle with Hashirama, What Tobi/Madara's relation to Nagato is, and Who Zetsu is. Finally, these revelations will explain what Kabuto intended to do with Edo Madara,Why this blackmails Tobi, and What technique Kabuto is keeping up his sleeve in addition to Edo Madara (which gave him confidence to win out even over Tobi's Rinnegan/Sharingan combo).

Hopefully we also learn what Itachi plans to do about Kabuto, and What Tobi's plan for Sasuke is. Ultimately, Sasuke/Itachi are the major wild cards here in the power struggle between Kabuto and Madara; we know that Kabuto and Tobi both want Sasuke alive, but Itachi is coming after Kabuto, and Sasuke is coming after everyone.