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  1. #41
    Master of Bludging ChaosMaster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FenixMarco View Post
    Zoro utilize CoO and CoA during Daz fight, why his "breath" seems so different its because of the fact some other members mention. The uniqueness of haki being used by different people, the variations. It's not even that far off, during Skypiea arc the Priests used CoO like Zoro did in Alabasta. They dodged usopps projectiles, Zoro's long range slashs (which are objects like rocks and trees you mentioned) and not living things attacking.
    You are using a wrong comparison here. With the things you were talking about, that being Zoro's long range slashes and Usoppus' porojectiles, what they were "observing" wasn't the objects/attacks. What they were "observing" was Usoppu and Zoro's intent. Put it this way then, how come Enel, the guy who taught the preist CoA/Mantra and has a DF ability which amplifies it, why couldn't he predict where Luffy's punches were, when Luffy himself didn't know (Gomu Gomu Octopus)? Likewise, why couldn't he hit Luffy when Luffy used "Gomu Gomu no Baka"? These are 2 fundamentally different things, we have been shown that. No one knew where the rocks were going to fall. The building was just destroyed. So how did Zoro observe it? Likewise, how does CoA allow him to control the sharpness/bluntness of his blades? I mean making it able to counter DF is one thing. Making him understand the steels "breath" and counter it, or understand leaves "breath" and change to not being able to cut it. This is a totally different ability to Haki.


    Quote Originally Posted by FenixMarco View Post
    AGAIN, your wrong. Here's the obvious reasons why.

    1. Everyone in One Piece has Haki.
    2. It takes great deal of training to wield it.
    3. Who the f*ck do you think Mihawk is?
    Mihawk may or may not have it. I'm with Cross on this one. I wouldn't be surprised if he could use haki, but again, he hasn't shown it. If I'm right about the "breath" thing, then he prob would be using that instead. His called Hawk Eye, which leads me to believe he has a Zoan Hawk DF, but no evidence, and I'm not here to argue that. But what that means is that he has very sharp eyes. Which prob means he doens't need CoO. Haki maybe in everyone, but it's up to them if they wish to use/learn it or not. Mihawk could have learnt it, but if there was a special skill for swordsmen out there, then he wouldn't have need bothered. Not to mention Mihawks attacks have been similar to Zoro's flying slashes. Zoro clearly couldn't use Haki when he first started using his cannon technique.

    This is kinda like back when people said Zoro used Haki back on Shabondy, when the bounty hunters can up to him. Clearly it wasn't, as no one fainted. From all the cases of CoC being used, we see people/animal fainting with crazed looks on their face (squirly eyes or foam from mouth). These guys just fell back on their backs in fear. We are both making assumptions, so it's time we considered from both sides views.

  2. #42
    Senior Member cross777's Avatar
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    agree with you there.
    Quote Originally Posted by arisart View Post
    Lol, I bet you argue too much with cross. It's not really healthy you know.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Death View Post
    Hey stick to the topic, quit asking nonsense question about other series or if cross777 is thunder luffy which by the way have different IP addresses.... Next person that goes off topic will be infracted...
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  3. #43

    One Piece

    Quote Originally Posted by cross777 View Post
    also fair points. but lets look at this one a more individual level. and let me explain what i mean by skill

    in zoros case. he looses his eye. he still has his skill and the ability to use that skill. because what zoro is a three swords style swords men. with one eye he still has that. but take away his arm and that takes away his style and in a way his skill. because he can not use that any more and if you take away one of his arms that makes him a one sword swordsmen. he would still be a powerful swords men but nothing like he was when he has his three sword or even two sword style.

    same with vista who used a two sword style. take away his eye, sure that would hinder some one, but he would still have the style and the ability to use the skill that makes him that powerful. take away his arm and he losses that.

    you get what im saying. what i meant by skill was what you are able to do you know. because if you loose the ability to use that skill you essentially loose some or all of that skill. thats what i meant. still, you did have good points to.

    So you mean style and capability, not skill...
    Well then on style, that's just Zolo's choice. No 1 knows what would happen if he lost an arm.
    But Judging by how much he is willing to give up, to reach his goals, I think his specific Santoryu style is easily 1 of those things. IF you notice, he now really has more 2, or 1 sword techniques than for the 3-sword techniques. And his style has never been the biggest deal for him, More like that's more his reputation, than a necessity.



    Quote Originally Posted by cross777 View Post
    but one the croc thing no mihawk did not use haki and joz did.
    joz did not catch him by surprise
    Spoiler!

    and we know that a well developed logia DF losses that weakness of being caught by surprise as we have seen including in the war. when flamingo loped crocs head off or when smoker got cut from behind. so croc was not surprised and it would not matter if he was.

    no again i never said mihawk can't use haki im saying we just have never seen him use it.
    @ the underlined part, we actually don't know. Both Smoker and Croc could have just been intangible @ those times beforehand, and you realize it would take longer for you to read those panels and the subsequent, next page than it would for the actual action to happen. Just saying, Wouldn't assume that does or does not constitute as "surprise" enough to land a blow on the intangible logias.


    Quote Originally Posted by ChaosMaster View Post
    The words Buggy said afther the "Gomu Gomu no Human Shield" prob shows that they don't really know each other. I believe it was along the lines of "You must be Hawk Eye Mihawk" as if he was questioning it.

    I wouldn't be surprised if Mihawk knew haki. But like I said, I'm hoping that there is a level above for Swordsmen. That "Breath" thing wasn't explained out clearly. Why could he cut only what he wanted, yet do no damage to what he didn't? From what we've seen, Haki CoA creates a layer around the body/weapon, which makes it effective against DF users. If the opposing DF user also has haki COA, the layers of haki will cancel each other out. This is totally different to the concept that Zoro showed.

    As for CoO, it allows the user to predict the moves and intent of objects, but we've only been show it on animate things, that being people and animals. There hasn't been a case where it's shown to observe inanimate things, like rocks or trees or even steel. I mean, what in what way would CoO allow the user to know the composition of the objects? How would observing something allow Zoro to control the sharpness or bluntness of his blade? So basically, this "new power" that Oda seeming can't introduce has actually been introduced already. It won't be a new thing.
    Agreed on the bolded statement.

    Don't think Cancel out is the right term. More like they clash and do nothing. Canceling each other out would mean they pretty much go right back to before they were using haki.

    @ the last paragraph, if you're referring to when I said:

    But why wait so long to introduce or explain something new?
    And If it was that unique, then you're still cool with Zolo essentially, suddenly learning how to really master this unique thing, technically within this latter part of the latter half of the manga, while every1 else would have taken basically the whole serious or most of it to master their own things?
    I meant that Haki was slowly trickled into the fabric of the OPU. Now after a point basically explained to be about halfway through, a lot has been explained about it. Not necessarily completely but a fair amount explained. It has been shown to be able to be trained in, and Luffy, in many ways the focus of the manga, (while not necessarily mastering it), has learned to include it into and improve himself in conjunction with all that he has learned. On the other hand (if Zolo had this special unique ability, equal to, or making haki mastering unnecessary for Zolo), do you really think after not explaining the ability or exactly what it applies to in Zolo's arsenal this whole time, (which would indicate that he wouldn't do so until the latter half of the latter half of the manga), that he would do so and then basically have to have Zolo master W.e. his special ability exactly is @ basically the same time? After the 2 years Luffy needed to train just to get a handle on something not so unique in the OPU?
    You think Zolo will basically explain to himself a special ability as a basis for his "type of power", and then pretty much subsequently automatically master it? Look @ how long it took to really be able to use that "slicing into anything ability no matter the position"?
    That doesn't seem to be that realistic from what we know from the manga. Just think, some more, or something about it would have @ least been explained after this long if Zolo had his own "power source/style".

  4. #44
    Senior Member FenixMarco's Avatar
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    One Piece

    Quote Originally Posted by ChaosMaster View Post
    You are using a wrong comparison here. With the things you were talking about, that being Zoro's long range slashes and Usoppus' porojectiles, what they were "observing" wasn't the objects/attacks. What they were "observing" was Usoppu and Zoro's intent. Put it this way then, how come Enel, the guy who taught the preist CoA/Mantra and has a DF ability which amplifies it, why couldn't he predict where Luffy's punches were, when Luffy himself didn't know (Gomu Gomu Octopus)? Likewise, why couldn't he hit Luffy when Luffy used "Gomu Gomu no Baka"? These are 2 fundamentally different things, we have been shown that. No one knew where the rocks were going to fall. The building was just destroyed. So how did Zoro observe it? Likewise, how does CoA allow him to control the sharpness/bluntness of his blades? I mean making it able to counter DF is one thing. Making him understand the steels "breath" and counter it, or understand leaves "breath" and change to not being able to cut it. This is a totally different ability to Haki.
    Alright good point on Usopp and Zoro's. Working on a long post to answer the rest, a lot words used have the same meanings as Rayleigh's explanation, as well a lot of translators use different terms all branching together with similar outcomes. I can't just convince you guys without manga material as well without translations with valid sources, so yo it won't be quick.But Chaos your giving me questions to cover. But for Enel he is a perfect example of how Haki isn't a typical generic ability. What we got from Rayleigh were the basics the stepping stones of Haki. The specific differences with other people wielding it is what I think is going to answer the rest. Because let's face it if Haki just stood the same for every user throughout that rest of the series that is boring. See how it makes sense Oda will put more time in effort on what he's already ADDED to the story instead of adding another new power?



    Quote Originally Posted by ChaosMaster View Post
    Mihawk may or may not have it. I'm with Cross on this one. I wouldn't be surprised if he could use haki, but again, he hasn't shown it. If I'm right about the "breath" thing, then he prob would be using that instead. His called Hawk Eye, which leads me to believe he has a Zoan Hawk DF, but no evidence, and I'm not here to argue that. But what that means is that he has very sharp eyes. Which prob means he doens't need CoO. Haki maybe in everyone, but it's up to them if they wish to use/learn it or not. Mihawk could have learnt it, but if there was a special skill for swordsmen out there, then he wouldn't have need bothered. Not to mention Mihawks attacks have been similar to Zoro's flying slashes. Zoro clearly couldn't use Haki when he first started using his cannon technique.

    This is kinda like back when people said Zoro used Haki back on Shabondy, when the bounty hunters can up to him. Clearly it wasn't, as no one fainted. From all the cases of CoC being used, we see people/animal fainting with crazed looks on their face (squirly eyes or foam from mouth). These guys just fell back on their backs in fear. We are both making assumptions, so it's time we considered from both sides views.
    Or the more likely case Haki has a different variation for swordsmen? If Mihawk is as sharp as said to be he probably wields his own trained/learned version of haki. Also CoC is the only haki that has a effect we can tell the character was using haki. All the other ones we can't unless a character says it or the intangible/unbreakable DF user is actually injured.

    This is my overall question, why do you guys think it's not haki involved when that is clearly how the story is shaping up to be? It makes no sense for Rayleigh's explanation at all if it ends up that way, now will need 3 explanations: Devil Fruits, Haki, and unknown power, how will this 3rd power mix in between Devil Fruits and Haki, especially Haki a power that has been split 3 ways and shown to be utilized differently by people. Bottom line it can't fit.

  5. #45
    Senior Member Airicks's Avatar
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    Eh, lol Zoro didn't use Haki on Daz, he learn to cut steal - its a special way to cut it as we know, since he tried the same technique on that giraffe on EL , when the giraffe stopped using that hardening technique he said "even if you can cut steel I dont have to use the guard" (or something to that effect)

    As for the part when the building was cut up and falling on him, Idk it could have been but I assumed it was his reflexes hyped up.

    I don't think Zoro's ever been shown to have Haki, If I remember correctly he did make some guys pass out from giving them crazy eyes, though I assume it was because they were afraid (cant remember the chapter, just vaguely remember it drawing my attention and thinking how bad ass Zoro was)
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  6. #46
    Senior Member cross777's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Airicks View Post
    Eh, lol Zoro didn't use Haki on Daz, he learn to cut steal - its a special way to cut it as we know, since he tried the same technique on that giraffe on EL , when the giraffe stopped using that hardening technique he said "even if you can cut steel I dont have to use the guard" (or something to that effect)

    As for the part when the building was cut up and falling on him, Idk it could have been but I assumed it was his reflexes hyped up.

    I don't think Zoro's ever been shown to have Haki, If I remember correctly he did make some guys pass out from giving them crazy eyes, though I assume it was because they were afraid (cant remember the chapter, just vaguely remember it drawing my attention and thinking how bad ass Zoro was)
    he did make that cross dresser pass out but he was crushing her/his head. but i agree with you on this zoro just upped his game against daz.
    Quote Originally Posted by arisart View Post
    Lol, I bet you argue too much with cross. It's not really healthy you know.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Death View Post
    Hey stick to the topic, quit asking nonsense question about other series or if cross777 is thunder luffy which by the way have different IP addresses.... Next person that goes off topic will be infracted...
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Airicks View Post
    Eh, lol Zoro didn't use Haki on Daz, he learn to cut steal - its a special way to cut it as we know, since he tried the same technique on that giraffe on EL , when the giraffe stopped using that hardening technique he said "even if you can cut steel I dont have to use the guard" (or something to that effect)

    As for the part when the building was cut up and falling on him, Idk it could have been but I assumed it was his reflexes hyped up.

    I don't think Zoro's ever been shown to have Haki, If I remember correctly he did make some guys pass out from giving them crazy eyes, though I assume it was because they were afraid (cant remember the chapter, just vaguely remember it drawing my attention and thinking how bad ass Zoro was)
    Confused, on the bold statement, who said it was?

    Quote Originally Posted by cross777 View Post
    he did make that cross dresser pass out but he was crushing her/his head. but i agree with you on this zoro just upped his game against daz.
    So you see only those couple instances during EL where that "demonic" presence was shown is the indication, to you, that Zolo has some "other source" to his "special power"?

  8. #48
    Senior Member cross777's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SCarred Luffy Lvl:Z View Post
    So you see only those couple instances during EL where that "demonic" presence was shown is the indication, to you, that Zolo has some "other source" to his "special power"?
    yeah i mean i do not think its haki. i think its some thing else. i mean even the explanation we got does not cover zoro's darker powers. i mean i think its something more specific to him. now could he use haki on top of that sure that a possibility. but i definitely think that his darker power are something else other than haki.
    Quote Originally Posted by arisart View Post
    Lol, I bet you argue too much with cross. It's not really healthy you know.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Death View Post
    Hey stick to the topic, quit asking nonsense question about other series or if cross777 is thunder luffy which by the way have different IP addresses.... Next person that goes off topic will be infracted...
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  9. #49
    Senior Member FenixMarco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SCarred Luffy Lvl:Z View Post
    Confused, on the bold statement, who said it was?
    I did. And fuck Airicks just found a b*tch of a loophole.

  10. #50
    Master of Bludging ChaosMaster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SCarred Luffy Lvl:Z View Post
    I meant that Haki was slowly trickled into the fabric of the OPU. Now after a point basically explained to be about halfway through, a lot has been explained about it. Not necessarily completely but a fair amount explained. It has been shown to be able to be trained in, and Luffy, in many ways the focus of the manga, (while not necessarily mastering it), has learned to include it into and improve himself in conjunction with all that he has learned. On the other hand (if Zolo had this special unique ability, equal to, or making haki mastering unnecessary for Zolo), do you really think after not explaining the ability or exactly what it applies to in Zolo's arsenal this whole time, (which would indicate that he wouldn't do so until the latter half of the latter half of the manga), that he would do so and then basically have to have Zolo master W.e. his special ability exactly is @ basically the same time? After the 2 years Luffy needed to train just to get a handle on something not so unique in the OPU?
    You think Zolo will basically explain to himself a special ability as a basis for his "type of power", and then pretty much subsequently automatically master it? Look @ how long it took to really be able to use that "slicing into anything ability no matter the position"?
    That doesn't seem to be that realistic from what we know from the manga. Just think, some more, or something about it would have @ least been explained after this long if Zolo had his own "power source/style".

    Quote Originally Posted by FenixMarco View Post
    Alright good point on Usopp and Zoro's. Working on a long post to answer the rest, a lot words used have the same meanings as Rayleigh's explanation, as well a lot of translators use different terms all branching together with similar outcomes. I can't just convince you guys without manga material as well without translations with valid sources, so yo it won't be quick.But Chaos your giving me questions to cover. But for Enel he is a perfect example of how Haki isn't a typical generic ability. What we got from Rayleigh were the basics the stepping stones of Haki. The specific differences with other people wielding it is what I think is going to answer the rest. Because let's face it if Haki just stood the same for every user throughout that rest of the series that is boring. See how it makes sense Oda will put more time in effort on what he's already ADDED to the story instead of adding another new power?
    Quote Originally Posted by FenixMarco View Post
    Or the more likely case Haki has a different variation for swordsmen? If Mihawk is as sharp as said to be he probably wields his own trained/learned version of haki. Also CoC is the only haki that has a effect we can tell the character was using haki. All the other ones we can't unless a character says it or the intangible/unbreakable DF user is actually injured.

    This is my overall question, why do you guys think it's not haki involved when that is clearly how the story is shaping up to be? It makes no sense for Rayleigh's explanation at all if it ends up that way, now will need 3 explanations: Devil Fruits, Haki, and unknown power, how will this 3rd power mix in between Devil Fruits and Haki, especially Haki a power that has been split 3 ways and shown to be utilized differently by people. Bottom line it can't fit.

    Indeed that power could be a variation of Haki. In that sense I might be able to agree, even though it's still a far stretch. About Zoro having this "special power" alone, it's not just him. His master did say that Swordsmen of the highest level have achieved this skill. It's nothing new. And we also don't know if Mihawk can use this ability. If this is a skill of the highest degree for Swordsmen, then wouldn't Mihawk be able to use this skill too? Zoro did train under Mihawk, so he would have had a teacher to teach him, much like Luffy with Haki.

    As for Zoro explaining this power, who knows. The rest of the crew haven't shown what happen during that 2 year time skip. Only Luffy has had his shown. Surely, you don't think that they've shown all that they can do already, do you? It's up to Oda to decide if he wishes to show what their improvements are. But from past experiences, other than Luffy, their skills usually arn't explained. Take Gear Second as an example. Oda gave us a clear explanation (via Lucci) on how it worked, and it's risks. No explanation was ever given on Zoro's Asura 9 blade attack, nor Sanji's flame jambo kick thing. Just because there's no explanation, doesn't mean it can't exist.

    As I said, why was there a reason for Mihawk to be categorized in a special category. I mean none of the other Shichibukai are named "worlds greatest" something. If using swords was a matter of brute strength and haki, then there's no real reason for it to be seperated.

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