Naruto 522 Discussion / 523 Predictions

[Rlinfamous]

Kishi's given several examples of war's corrosive effect throughout his manga, Rlinfamous. At this stage of the story, there weren't any real pressing issues between neighboring countries that would cause the type of war you've eluded to (the Sasuke issue with the Cloud country was really the closest example).

Point is, Nagato wanted to prepare Naruto for that kind of war. He kept saying, "Pain and hatred that you can't do anything with, that's what war is" and "That is what you must be prepared to face." The whole point of Naruto having to come up with an "answer" to hatred/war breeding further hatred/war is moot if the war isn't REALLY a legit war to begin with.

Yes, Kishi gave plenty of examples of Shinobi fighting other Shinobi, where there wasn't a clear-cut "good guys vs. bad guys", but simply opposing sides. That's what Jiraiya, Yondaime, Kakashi, Tsunade, and all the other adults in the Naruto universe had to struggle with. That's why people like Danzou and Raikage don't believe in childish, idealistic answers. That's why Nagato resorted to insane measures such as using ultimate terror to force people into living peacefully.

It was alluded to many times that Naruto would have to face this kind of hatred eventually, but it seems like that only means he's got to beat Sasuke. As far as winning the war goes, it's shallow. They just have to take down the army of bad guys, and the good guys win. It's so shallow compared to the other Great Ninja Wars we've seen clips from. It's not like I'm not interested in seeing the fights ahead, and whatnot, but that's all they are. Fights. There's no real ideal behind them, there's no passion. It's just mindless clones and zombies going up against "good guys." And these Zombies (most of whom committed suicide in some way or another to begin with!) are one-by-one turning good again and asking people to kill them. Figures.

Oh yeah, and these good guys were militarily opposed to one another in wars full of hatred and passion only decades ago. Funny how Naruto's "answer" was supposed to unite the Shinobi world and bring true peace, and they united so easily. Yeah, Gaara gave a cliche speech and made everything better. Yeah, they don't have much choice at the moment if they want to stop Madara. But am I really the only one who finds the direction this has gone to be a bit too shallow compared to what we were getting set up for? I mean, Madara is so blatantly evil, the manga's finally found an villain who WON'T be redeemed and commit suicide. Despite this, he's "take over the world" scheme just isn't a very interesting or compelling motive compared to Pain, Orochimaru, or even Sasuke (at least Sasuke just wants vengeance against everything, he's not some lame supervillain wannabe).

I wait impatiently every week for releases. I frequent these boards more often than I should. I love this manga. But on this issue, I feel I have to be a bit critical: the premise of this war just doesn't deliver. I still look forward to seeing how Naruto confronts hatred with Sasuke, and all, but when I see Kishi throwing around statements like "Now, for the first time, they will experience: War!" after all the hype Nagato gave us, and then see something as bland as Zetsu Clones getting steamrolled, I'm just not feeling the tension. How are the kids supposed to feel bad about "killing" evil plants or zombies? Yeah, they see their own comrades die, but the hatred they feel won't be directed at enemies who suffer the same pain, or feel fear/anxiety. It has no meaning in terms of the image of "war" Kishi built up so Painstakingly.

They're supposed to hesitate to land a killing blow. They're supposed to feel regret, or come to terms with "kill or be killed"... at this point, the "killing" taking place isn't real. Are Naruto and Sasuke really going to end this manga with only one kill each (the mutual killing of Madara when they inevitably team up)? Does that really give them credentials to preach to people like Nagato, Raikage, Danzou, and the rest of the hardened generations of Shinobi about what the solutions to dealing with hatred and loss really are?

Perhaps I'm looking at this the wrong way (and here's where some people will doubtlessly say "ya think???"). Perhaps Naruto's hands staying clean for this long is exactly what allows him to preach to hardened killers. Perhaps it's a sign that he's truly found a path to peace, even if he's clearly attempted to land killing blows on several Shinobi, and has only been saved from doing so by plot devices. Perhaps he's destined to slay zombies/vegetables for all eternity, and all the bad guys will off themselves so that the good guys remain positive role models for the teenagers who read this, and everyone can go to bed at night with happy visions of cartoon wars with no moral ambiguity. However, I had hoped for a more compelling depiction of war after the all the hype throughout the manga, and it seems Naruto's generation (and thus the audience) have gotten the shaft as far as "Great Ninja Wars" go.

[Monte.Teacher]

At this point of the story, I have to agree with you. But I do expect that some twist and turns will make this war more realistic. As we all know, betrayal and treachery are all parts of war. Who knows, maybe one of the hidden villages had a secret deal with Madara and just waiting for the right moment to move. Madara is good at manipulating people and feeding false information.He might have tricked some people in the alliance to side with him. We'll just wait and see and hope the Kish will move the plot into another direction than this black and white kinda of war.

[FenixMarco]

@Rlinfamous
It may seem shallow now I doubt it's going remain like that,you know Madara been f*cking around with the ninja villages for decades now. I wouldn't be surprised if one of the ally leaders is working under him to seek the same unstoppable power Madara is going for. I don't know there is just to many ideal differentiations between a lot of characters to just see it ending like what we been given right now in the start of the war. Simple good vs evil like you said isn't going to fuel the hype he's been building up and give the scenario/experience for Naruto to achieve his goal along with other characters.I wouldn't throw in my cards just yet, you might get almost exactly what you said sooner than later. I will say this before the war started it felt like the manga was being rushed right before Naruto performed that "Flash step" on the turtle island, to the start of the war. So right now we're getting our flashy action packed portions, guessing later it gets more into the plot/new revealed plot behind the war, corruption will make it interesting and is inevitable at this point, especially with Kabuto. Can't remember this for sure but during the Ally leaders meeting weren't their pass flaws/betrayal's revealed from one another? Anyways I don't think your viewing it wrong a lot of what you said makes perfect sense to why you are disappointed just saying let it grow a bit more before expecting a sequoia.

[Zero]

You are sayin that the war will end after Tobidara lose... I'm not sure about it. The most important question is, what will hapen with the power(bijuu) left by him, will it be destroyed, or struggled over ? The real war may start after elemination of the greatest threat that is Tobi. If he is eleminated, then there is no reaseon for the aliance anymore.

[Moork]

Naruto has already faced that type of hatred with Gaara and Pain, and will indeed face it again with Sasuke. With regards to THIS current war it clearly won't be the case because of Madara. I don't understand why that's an issue within the context of this story, or must automatically be less compelling.

Madara has declared war on everyone, so naturally everyone will put aside their grudges for the sake of their cumulative survival. In the face of a powerful common foe, yesterday's enemies are today's allies. Clearly such a foe never presented itself in the prior Great Ninja Wars. Madara's been planning his WAR for decades: he'd always intended to fight against the world to achieve his ultimate objective.

In this case the world decided to join forces to counter him. Why does that mean the underlying theme of this manga, conquering the hatred born from this Ninja System as Jiraiya and Minato put it, is suddenly null and void because of this current war? I don't get your train of logic, Rlin.

Perhaps you think a TRUE war is the only way to fully test Naruto's conviction to conquer hatred...? If that's actually the case then your disappointment starts making more sense, but you'll have to explain WHY that must be the case.

Recall the prophecy from the Old Toad Sage:
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v41/c376/13.html

Now, taking the opinions Jiraiya and Minato had with respect to the Ninja System, I don't see why Naruto must fullfill his destiny via a massive war. In fact Kishi has never shown HOW Naruto will fullfill his destiny, only how each subsequent experience (both good and ill) has slowly shaped his character and mindset into the type of man who could ultimately change the world.

[POW]

what ever happen to ninja villages hiding there dead so other ppl can find there can steal from them.. how did kabuto know where to find all of them ninja to take there blood

Akatsuki had spies in many countries and Kabuto used to be one of those spies he in fact has spent his whole life as a spy. This is probably how he knew his way around a lot of other countries.

[Rlinfamous]

Naruto has already faced that type of hatred with Gaara and Pain, and will indeed face it again with Sasuke. With regards to THIS current war it clearly won't be the case because of Madara. I don't understand why that's an issue within the context of this story, or must automatically be less compelling.

Madara has declared war on everyone, so naturally everyone will put aside their grudges for the sake of their cumulative survival. In the face of a powerful common foe, yesterday's enemies are today's allies. Clearly such a foe never presented itself in the prior Great Ninja Wars. Madara's been planning his WAR for decades: he'd always intended to fight against the world to achieve his ultimate objective.

In this case the world decided to join forces to counter him. Why does that mean the underlying theme of this manga, conquering the hatred born from this Ninja System as Jiraiya and Minato put it, is suddenly null and void because of this current war? I don't get your train of logic, Rlin.

Perhaps you think a TRUE war is the only way to fully test Naruto's conviction to conquer hatred...? If that's actually the case then your disappointment starts making more sense, but you'll have to explain WHY that must be the case.

Recall the prophecy from the Old Toad Sage:
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v41/c376/13.html

Now, taking the opinions Jiraiya and Minato had with respect to the Ninja System, I don't see why Naruto must fullfill his destiny via a massive war. In fact Kishi has never shown HOW Naruto will fullfill his destiny, only how each subsequent experience (both good and ill) has slowly shaped his character and mindset into the type of man who could ultimately change the world.

Hatred in the Shinobi world is born from sides fighting for their individual beliefs, and suffering losses because of this fighting. Loved ones being killed in war is what causes this pain. Everyone, from Jiraiya, to Zabuza, to Chiyo, to Nagato, have suffered from this pain. And every one of those people entrusted Naruto with finding a better alternative to it. That's Naruto's greatest mission now: to break the chain of hatred.

I'm just saying this new "war" is too easy. It's not two sides, each fighting for their own ideals or loved ones. There's no "chain of hatred" to break in this war. Madara has no loved ones. He doesn't love. He readily admits that all he cares about is hatred and vengeance, and he's blatantly evil. As for his servants, they're zombies or mindless clones, and there's no reason to hesitate to kill them. No one suffers when they die, no one is going to avenge them. There won't be any war orphans or devastated villages or war-torn countries on their side. It's clear-cut good vs. evil, and the point of the Pain Arc was that good and evil weren't so clear-cut.

In other wars, Jiraiya, Minato, and Kakashi all killed their enemies, who were living, breathing Shinobi, with homes and families and beliefs of their own. That's what lead to the chain of hatred. The "justice" Konoha preached, and its form of "peace", equated to murder and suffering for other villages. That's what lead to the villages acting in self-interest, such as the Cloud kidnapping Hyugas/Kushina to try and strengthen its own power, or the Sand trying to ally itself with Orochimaru to take down the Leaf. That's what hatred is, and it's a result of real war.

Again, let me re-state. Naruto only has to win over Sasuke. That's the only "chain of hatred" he needs to break, and Sasuke's already shown signs of cracking (plus he hasn't even killed anyone, though not for lack of trying). Once this happens, Naruto and Sasuke will team up to take down Madara. On the outside, that might look like their "love and friendship" overcoming Madara's "power and hatred", and the whole Younger Brother vs. Elder Brother conflict appears to be resolved in the Younger's favor. However, in reality, it just means that they were stronger than Madara. And as for the rest of the Shinobi world, and its "chain of hatred", I don't think this will even be addressed.

Odds are, Madara dies, the war ends, Naruto gets to feel good about himself, and all the bitterness and hatred these warring clans held for decades upon decades will be forgotten. And that's such a cop-out. Seriously, the united shinobi army against Madara's evil clone zombies is just a total cop-out, and while I'm sure I'll be hanging on the edge of my seat until the end, I'm really not interested in the mindless, preachy segments anymore. All the moral dilemmas that Kishi set up have lost all credibility in my eyes.

Yes, Naruto has overcome hatred before in this manga with Zabuza/Gaara/Nagato/Sasuke (I'm already counting Sasuke). However, he was entrusted with finding an answer that would do this for the entire hate-filled Shinobi world, not just one or two people he can relate to (being Jinchuuriki/Jiraiya's students/teammates). And I just don't see that happening when Naruto's own battles are always so morally one-sided.

[Monte.Teacher]

There is one big element in the story that wasn't focused on yet. The Shinobi villages rely on the daimyos or feudal lord for funding and support. The hidden villages are basically serving them. The villages couldn't even go to war or forged an alliance unless their respective feudal lords agree. During the kage selection, it was the daimyos who in the end decide who would be the next kage. And in the last Naruto movie, we saw Tsunade answering to a Fuedal Lord. Naruto is far from being over. This element could be further explored for future plots. Who has much to gain after each war? The daimyos of course. The kages are simply leaders of the military arm of a country. The political leaders are the one really running a country. The government system in Naruto is basically feudalism, which could be an oligarchy. I can see Naruto confronting these feudal lords in the future. If kishi wants to discuss war and peace, the he also have to talk about the political structure in Naruto. But then again, Naruto is not Gundam. We'll see.

[Moork]

Odds are, Madara dies, the war ends, Naruto gets to feel good about himself, [B}and all the bitterness and hatred these warring clans held for decades upon decades will be forgotten.[/B] And that's such a cop-out. Seriously, the united shinobi army against Madara's evil clone zombies is just a total cop-out, and while I'm sure I'll be hanging on the edge of my seat until the end, I'm really not interested in the mindless, preachy segments anymore. All the moral dilemmas that Kishi set up have lost all credibility in my eyes.

I see your position, but this is where we differ.

I don't the believe outcome of this war will be the culmination of Naruto's quest to conquer hatred within the Ninja System. It is certainly a major event, and Madara is indeed the major villain as far as I can tell, but the SYSTEM won't change once he's dead.

Initially I envisioned this manga ending with Naruto sacrificing himself to save Konoha, but after the last several arcs (specifically the Pain arc) I changed my position. Now, I see Naruto eventually becoming a leader who chooses to completely reform the entire Ninja system. Which means the story will go on well into his adulthood.

Madara's death (likely by Naruto's hand, with help) will provide the opportunity of achieving worldwide fame (like Hashirama when he created Konoha), and confronting/defeating Sasuke will add to this. From that position, Naruto will began carrying out his destiny of changing the entire system. Truly battling the roots of hatred embedded in his world. And during this period he'll confront others who wish to maintain the system, sometimes for very legitimate reasons. Those future conflicts will mirror what you're alluding to, what you believed this 4th Great War should have been.

Anyway, that's my interpretation of where this manga's heading. This war with Madara isn't the climax. The battle with Sasuke won't be the climax. It will be Naruto versus the "world" protecting the current Ninja System.

We'll see if I'm right. Perhaps I'm giving Kishi too much credit...?

[Moork]

There is one big element in the story that wasn't focused on yet. The Shinobi villages rely on the daimyos or feudal lord for funding and support. The hidden villages are basically serving them. The villages couldn't even go to war or forged an alliance unless their respective feudal lords agree. During the kage selection, it was the daimyos who in the end decide who would be the next kage. And in the last Naruto movie, we saw Tsunade answering to a Fuedal Lord. Naruto is far from being over. This element could be further explored for future plots. Who has much to gain after each war? The daimyos of course. The kages are simply leaders of the military arm of a country. The political leaders are the one really running a country. The government system in Naruto is basically feudalism, which could be an oligarchy. I can see Naruto confronting these feudal lords in the future. If kishi wants to discuss war and peace, the he also have to talk about the political structure in Naruto. But then again, Naruto is not Gundam. We'll see.

Good point about the Feudal Lords, Monte. I agree.