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12-06-2010, 05:54 PM
Hrmm, this page?
That definitely means Kakashi learned Rasengan before developing Chidori/acquiring the Sharingan, so I'd have to concede that. Still doesn't make any of what I said about why Sasuke/Kakashi stick with Chidori any less valid. And Rasengan was still a more complete jutsu, even without elemental recompostion, then Chidori was when Kakashi invented it, hence Minato's disapproval of the Chidori. So I don't see why Kakashi developed a new jutsu simply because he couldn't take Rasengan any further (it was good enough for Minato/Jiraiya), unless some of my reasoning behind Chidori's benefits is true for Kakashi.
It feels like there's some inconsistency between Kakashi/Minato's attitude towards the Chidori in the Gaiden arc and Kakashi's attitude towards Rasengan in the Rasenshuriken Training arc. In the Gaiden, it's Chidori that is incomplete. In Naruto's Rasenshuriken training arc, it's the Rasengan that's incomplete, because it lacks elemental affinity. And now in Naruto's new Kyuubi training arc, the Rasengan is considered incomplete once more, for entirely different reasons: it is now because the Rasengan was originally intended to mimic the Bijuu's attack.
It's possible that the Rasengan being incomplete is what allows Naruto to create so many of his own upgrades to it. I guess the Chidori also being incomplete is what allows Sasuke to make so many variants. The fact that Naruto gains more benefit from being able to pump more chakra into a jutsu than he does from being able to add elemental affinity to a jutsu just emphasizes the difference in Naruto/Sasuke's styles.
12-06-2010, 06:36 PM
No, Rin is right. Kakashi didn't learn Rasengan, because Minato never let him learn it. The truth is that even with normal eyes a skilled ninja can copy rasengan(it has no element or seals) and Kakashi is a skillled one. It's a fact. Remember what Jiraya first did with the rasengan ? He simply showed Naruto by using on some random guy. If it was impossible to learn how this jutsu work whit only seeing then Jiraya wouldn't even show at that time. The fact that Minato was shocked that Kakashi invented a similar jutsu backs it up.
So yes, Rinfamous, you are right as he never learned it, but you are wrong saying that he used the sharingan(look my previous and afro's posts) to copy it.
Rasengan never was complete. Taht's exactly why Kakashi needed to invent the chidori, though he made it after uncomplete jutsu, so his own wasn't perfect as well.
12-06-2010, 06:39 PM
Eh, I think that definition of "copy" implies learning from example. I was dead wrong about Kakashi copying Rasengan with his Sharingan, and the manga's inconsistent attitude towards which jutsu are "incomplete" and for what reasons doesn't help anything.
12-06-2010, 06:50 PM
The creator of the jutsu says if it's complete. It just means that he reached with it the level he whanted to. Seeing that rasengan was supposed to be a copy of the bijuu dama, you can guess that he was still far from over.
On the other hand a complete jutsu may mean that the jutsu give you only positive results. You could say that all forbidden jutsus are incomplete. The resenshuriken wasn't complete at the time of Kakuzu fight because it hurt the user.
In the end it doesn't matter if the jutsu is complete or not as long as it can be usable, even the incomplete chidori is already a very good jutsu, with good enough distraction it can be a killer move.
12-06-2010, 08:20 PM
That's true. I just think that Kishi throws around the terms "complete" or "incomplete" based on whatever power-ups he wants his characters to receive (Chidori + Sharingan, Rasengan + Wind Element, Rasengan + Bijuu Chakra, Rasenshuriken + Sage Mode)... it gets a little annoying.
When Sasuke first learned Chidori, or especially when Naruto first learned Rasengan, both of them were portrayed as powerful finishing moves, in and of themselves.
And when Naruto began to learn wind element, Kakashi strongly implied that Minato had always intended to add his own elemental affinity to the jutsu. Now that we know that clearly wasn't the case, it makes Rasenshuriken look like a rather strange direction for Naruto to have gone with the jutsu, considering the true intent was something entirely different.
Here's to hoping Sage Mode isn't entirely outclassed by Kyuubi Mode, and Rasenshuriken isn't entirely outclassed by Bijuu-Bomb Rasengan. It'd be a shame if the two powers Naruto achieved on his own, without relying on the Kyuubi, were thrown out. Unless Naruto fights primarily in Sage Mode, and uses the Kyuubi as a trump card the same way Sasuke uses Susano'o, I don't see how Naruto will incorporate his old, trademark abilities.
That is, of course, unless Naruto somehow combines Kyuubi Mode/Sage Mode (yes, every discussion about Naruto comes back to this), and we will TRULY see him use Rasenshuriken (completed, as in one-handed), Bijuu-Bomb Rasengan (complete, as in the full power of the Kyuubi's big attack), Sage Mode (complete, as in longer duration + easy to recharge), Kyuubi Mode (complete, as in no risk of Kyuubi draining all of Naruto's chakra / able to use Kagebunshins). I guess that would be the ultimate way to "complete" Naruto's moveset. I really hope we see him able to use all of these abilities without any drawback, because I'm sure Sasuke's going to be one crazy powerhouse when he's able to spam his MS abilities with nearly no drawbacks. I stand by my position that Sasuke will continue his trend of being able to spam more and more high-level doujutsu without running out of chakra, despite supposedly not having Bijuu-level stamina.
12-06-2010, 08:53 PM
Hehe, I'm just a geek for fantasizing about Naruto power-ups. I like to imagine how Naruto could overcome the annoying limits of his jutsu and be a true powerhouse. Some of it might happen, most of it probably won't. But I don't think it should offend anyone if I like to waste my hours typing out massive walls of text on the subject; you don't have to read them.
With regards to me needing to sleep, don't I know it. Unfortunately, I only have brief breaks between classes during the day, which doesn't give adequate time to nap, but gives me enough time for other activities I find constructive, meaningful, or enjoyable. In this case, writing long, theoretical, often unsubstantiated essays on Naruto forums that maybe five people will read and hopefully one person finds the time to respond to. And I don't see this as anything anyone needs to take issue with.
Now, if you think I was too harsh on Kishi's ninja-physics or storytelling when I targeted his use of "complete/incomplete" regarding jutsu, I can understand why you'd accuse me as being over-analytical or critical. However, there are constructive and inoffensive ways for you to point these things. Feel free to fill in gaps in my logic or understanding; Afro corrected my misreading of Kakashi's statements regarding the Rasengan, and at no point did he call me out on my "bullshit" analysis of the technique, regardless of the fact that I was indeed incorrect.
12-06-2010, 09:22 PM
Well, I wouldn't call you over-analytical or critical, as none of the jutsu whe know were called complete and then proven to be not. Besides, it's good to critic and be talkative about naruto as this forum is exactly for that purpose ;D . But still, contemplating on the meaning of "completed" jutsu may seem overboard as there may be better topics/things to discuss ;P, especially as that part isn't too important (Beside the possibility of creating a stronger version (wich allways exist BTW ;d ).
12-07-2010, 10:49 AM
That sounds good for me
Originally Posted by Rlinfamous
The thing what I thought was, Sasuke was so impressed by the Rasengan on the roof of the hospital that I thought if he could copy it so easily with his Sharingan than he would have done so. But like you said it seems there is a benefit behind Chidori or a drawback of using Rasengan for Sasuke and Kakashi.
12-07-2010, 02:51 PM
I think it's simply a case of them just preferring the Chidori over the Rasengan. At least that would be the case for Kakashi. Sasuke would more than likely rather die than use Naruto's signature technique.
Originally Posted by feat
12-08-2010, 11:24 AM
- Let me explain firstly the reason why Minato warned Kakashi not to use Chidori and stated it was incomplete is because it is a close combat stabbing technique that required the user to run at their target at blazing fast speeds. So fast in fact that they could not react in time to deal with an enemy counter attack.
Originally Posted by Rlinfamous
That is without a Sharingan as one of the benefits of having a Sharingan is the ability to predict motion so that is what made Chidori complete. His ability to predict and maneuver past any counter measures with his Sharingan.
- The reason why Kakashi does not use the Rasengan is fairly obvious it is because basic Rasengan can damage but is not an instant killing technique. Its a jutsu thats destructive power is based on the amount of Stamina ie Chakra one pumps into it and Kakashi lacks stamina. No one has ever been killed from a basic Rasengan take a good look.
Naruto - Rasengan's Kabuto he lives
Minato - Rasengan's Madara he lives
Konohamru - Rasengan's Pains Hell Realm He walks away
This is partly why Naruto spent much time during the time skip developing his Oodama Rasengan as that has enough chakra to make it a killing Technique. This is why Kakashi says Rasengan is incomplete as the addition of elemental energy it becomes a true finishing move it was intended to be.