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  1. #1
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    My hypothesis of how Madara gained Hashirama's Senju powers

    Here's a wacky hypothesis that i'm just throwing out there:

    Madara used the 'clones' of Hashirama (i.e. Yamato, someone with the abilities like but not of the same magnitude of the first Hokage) which Orochimaru created to obtain Senju powers. Note: The word clones is loosely used but you know what I mean.

    PROVE ME WRONG =)

  2. #2
    Senior Member psukkar's Avatar
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    you may be on to something here.

    you recall the 60 children where yamato being on of them all apparently died right. What happened to the remains, in fact why does konoha leave this guys body around. You'd think they would learn their lession with orochmaru then danzo now madara. konoha's carelessness is biting them in ass all the time in the past 100 chapters.

    He's too epic to leave around even when hes dead he involved so deeply in the plot lol.

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    That all happened long after the battle between Madara and Hashirama. Madara said that the purpose of his battle with Hashirama was to aquire his powers, I think that whatever method he used, that battle was when it happened. Madara says that he chose to focus on the future, by the sounds of things he had to risk himself to get Hashirama's powers. His loss, as well as the long term damage he sustained, was quite likely a concequence of whatever technique he used to copy Hashirama's bloodline. I highly doubt the clones had anything to do with it. Orochimaru conducted those experiements many years later, he wasn't even born when Madara was putting his plan into action.

    Quote Originally Posted by psukkar View Post
    you may be on to something here.

    you recall the 60 children where yamato being on of them all apparently died right. What happened to the remains, in fact why does konoha leave this guys body around. You'd think they would learn their lession with orochmaru then danzo now madara. konoha's carelessness is biting them in ass all the time in the past 100 chapters.

    He's too epic to leave around even when hes dead he involved so deeply in the plot lol.
    Well Danzo and Orochimaru were both high ranking Ninja within Konoha when they conducted those experiements. I would say more so than Konoha being careless, its the darkside of Konoha at work. A lot of the bad things that were done in Konoha were not out of carelessness but rather they were conciously practiced. Just as the Uchiha massacre was a concious decision made by members of the village council. Konoha, like the other villages, does what it must to remain ahead. Untilizing the special abilities of various clan members was probably viewed by many as a great service to the village. Orochimaru's experiments were probably approved to a degree, that is quite likely one of the reasons he was able to get away with those practices for as long as he did. Danzo collecting the sharingans for example, makes a lot of sense, and even if the concil did know about it they might not have disapproved. Just as other clans are desperate to steel the byakugan and Konoha puts extreme effort into keeping it exclusive. Even in the end, what Danzo did could be viewed as helping Konoha, some of the Elders probably saw it that way.

  4. #4
    Senior Member psukkar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by artifice View Post
    That all happened long after the battle between Madara and Hashirama. Madara said that the purpose of his battle with Hashirama was to aquire his powers, I think that whatever method he used, that battle was when it happened. Madara says that he chose to focus on the future, by the sounds of things he had to risk himself to get Hashirama's powers. His loss, as well as the long term damage he sustained, was quite likely a concequence of whatever technique he used to copy Hashirama's bloodline. I highly doubt the clones had anything to do with it. Orochimaru conducted those experiements many years later, he wasn't even born when Madara was putting his plan into action.
    I doubt he knew about the so6P and the two yin(sharingan)&yang(wood jutsu) bloodline limits were in fact created by the so6P at the point in time. I bet the whole picture came when nagato was around to read that tablet. I know madara makes it seem it had the rinnegan for a long time and but i really think he was talking shit to get konan thinking about nagato's location to mind read it. This isn't the first time he played on someones emotions, sasuke being his lap dog at the moment.

  5. #5
    Senior Member knife eater's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by psukkar View Post
    I doubt he knew about the so6P and the two yin(sharingan)&yang(wood jutsu) bloodline limits were in fact created by the so6P at the point in time. I bet the whole picture came when nagato was around to read that tablet. I know madara makes it seem it had the rinnegan for a long time and but i really think he was talking shit to get konan thinking about nagato's location to mind read it. This isn't the first time he played on someones emotions, sasuke being his lap dog at the moment.
    A bloodline was not copied. Cells were physically taken, otherwise there would be no Yang component to complete madara's sharingan into rinnegan. No cells to cultivate in the growing of the mazo after unsealing it from the moon, no physical basis to produce a hashirama body, a hashirama prosthetic, and no physical basis for the birth of zetsu and the many subsequent clones. The vote battle is where and when madara took the physical piece if hashirama. Afterwards he was believed dead and no further chance to encounter hashirama was likely.

    Madara was well aware of the tablet and the history from the sage onward, otherwise there would be no information or indication I
    Of the elements within the moon's eye plan.

    Orochimaru could have known anything at anytime. Nothing conclusive, however, is available for much deduction until after we are introduced to "the human who knows everything " aka "progenitor".

    I didn't realize nagato read the tablet. When does the manga reveal this? I don't think he ever did. Itachi, sasuke, madara, and likely tobi have read it to the degree their eyes allowed. Orochimaru never read it, neither kabuto. They pieced their information together from other sources.

    Back to the point, to gain hashirama's power madara likely used an exchange of injuries while clashing or used his alluded to space-time to render a space from the body.
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    First, we know that at the VOTE, Madara appeared to have died from a stab wound thru his heart. Later, we see that Edo Madara has Hashirama implant on his chest. Maybe he created a new heart from Hashirama cells.

    Why did not Hashirama destroy Madara's body after the victory? Why didn't anybody claim his MS?

    I originaly thought that Madara must have fired izanagi two times and died only after remaining completely blind. That idea is now off, because we saw him awakening rinnegan. Not using izanagi is in the line with his fighting for the future.

    He could have chopped a limb from Hashirama before dissapearing, apparently mortaly wounded.

    But, how Hashirama managed to convince everybody in his victory, if he didn't have Madara's body as evidence? If he had, somebody from the Uchiha would take Madara's eyes. Maybe someone could help with the explanation, because I'm clueless. I doubt that Kishi would leave such a inconsistency in the story.

  7. #7
    Senior Member Maximo's Avatar
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    Let me tell you what I think about how Madara gained hashiramas cells. Im gonna sum it up with Madaras history

    Battle at the Valley of the End

    Its true that it was heavily implied in the manga that Madara fought Hashirama there just to get the his cells/DNA and gain Rinnegan .. but this is what Tobi told us, NOT Madara and plus Tobi did lie more then once over the course of manga. What Im getting at is this, Madara didnt fight Hashirama over his cells.

    This is where my theory starts. I personally dont think the fight was about Senju DNA, at that time Madara had no way or means to figure out the stuff about SOT6P and Juubi bcs the only source of information was the uchiha stone tablet - now if Mangekyo was enough to uncover the whole truth then Itachi and Sasuke would have found out a long time ago, yet they didnt. This means it required Rinnegan to uncover the whole truth .. so how could Madara know that senju and uchiha are 2 halves of the Rikudou and the rest of it if he didnt have the Rinnegan by that time ?
    The Conclusion of the battle

    I think the fight was simple, to over-thrown Hashirama from Hokages seat, or maybe he just wanted to have a final spar to prove who is more worthy.

    The fight is over, Madara have lost and is mortaly wounded with a sword pierced through his chest. However, Hashirama shows compassion and understanding towards Madara. They were afterall a very fierce rivals that just like Naruto and Sasuke, can understand each other better by "exchanging fists". Hashirama thus felt sorry/pity for Madara and spared his life by using his cell regeneration jutsu on Madaras wounds. Basically, Hashiramas cells restored Madaras body.

    Just remember with how much respect Madara talks each time he mentions Hashirama.

    In return for his life, Hashirama told Madara to stay away from shinobi matters, that from that day on he was to be dead and never to re-emerge in Konoha ever again. Possibly, Hashirama may have used talk-no-jutsu on Madara to convince him that he would be a strong leader for Konoha and that he will ensure that peace will last.
    Hope is lost

    As time went by, Madara stayed hidden in the shadows but the peace that Hashirama was fighting for was to be lost. By the time Hashirama died, Madara already lost hope in mankind to maintain peace bcs not even such a fine ninja and charismatic leader like Hashirama couldnt do anything. Then the fated day happened when he awakened Rinnegan on the verge of his death. With such power at his feet, he decided to change the fate of the world that Hashirama longed for, but by his own way. He used Rinnegan on the stone tablet and learned about Juubi and SOT6P and from all this power and information he created the Moon Eye plan.
    Last edited by Maximo; 10-23-2012 at 09:01 PM.
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maximo View Post
    The fight was over, Madara lost and got mortaly wounded with a sword pierced through his chest. However, Hashirama showed compassion and understanding towards Madara, they were afterall a very fierce rivals that just like Naruto and Sasuke, can understand each other by "exchanging fists". Hashirama thus felt sorry/pity for Madara and spared his life by using his cell regeneration jutsu on Madaras wounds. Basically, Hashiramas cells restored Madaras body. In return Hashirama told Madara to stay away from shinobi matters, that from that day on he was to be dead and never to re-emerge in Konoha ever again. Possibly, Hashirama may have used talk-no-jutsu on Madara to convince him that he would be a strong leader for Konoha and that he will ensure that peace will last. ..
    Well, this theory is one hell of a candidate.

  9. #9
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maximo View Post
    Let me tell you what I think about how Madara gained hashiramas cells. Its true that it was heavily implied in the manga that Madara fought Hashirama just to get the cells and gain Rinnegan .. but this is what Tobi told us, and he is NOT Madara and he did lie more then once over the course of manga.

    What Im getting at is this, Madara didnt fight Hashirama over his cells. It was a fight to over-thrown him from Hokages seat, or maybe he just wanted to final spar with Hashirama to prove who is more worthy. Either way, Madara at that point knew nothing about SOT6P Juubi or Moon Eye plan.

    The fight was over, Madara lost and got mortaly wounded with a sword pierced through his chest. However, Hashirama showed compassion and understanding towards Madara, they were afterall a very fierce rivals that just like Naruto and Sasuke, can understand each other by "exchanging fists". Hashirama thus felt sorry/pity for Madara and spared his life by using his cell regeneration jutsu on Madaras wounds. Basically, Hashiramas cells restored Madaras body. In return Hashirama told Madara to stay away from shinobi matters, that from that day on he was to be dead and never to re-emerge in Konoha ever again. Possibly, Hashirama may have used talk-no-jutsu on Madara to convince him that he would be a strong leader for Konoha and that he will ensure that peace will last.

    As time went by, Madara stayed hidden in the shadows but the peace that Hashirama was fighting for was to be lost. By the time Hashirama died, Madara already lost hope in mankind to maintain peace bcs not even such a fine ninja and charismatic leader like Hashirama couldnt do anything with his compassion. With all that said, Madara was in no state to do anything, he was powerless .. until that fated day when he awakened Rinnegan on the verge of his death. With such power at his feet, he regained his desire to change the fate of the world. He used Rinnegan on the stone tablet and learned about Juubi and SOT6P and from all this power and information he created the Moon Eye plan. The rest of the history is shown in the current flashbacks ..
    Quote Originally Posted by bjnpav View Post
    Well, this theory is one hell of a candidate.

    Normally I would have dismissed a Theory like this, but Kishimoto has shown us recently that anything is possible and the facts change fluidly sometimes. When i say anything is possible, What I am really saying is that the experience with Tobi has persuaded me that Kishi is Trolling the fans. .

    You can't rely on what the Databook says, or what Characters in the Manga says, as your guide to what is Factual or not, because Kishi has shown that he will sometimes Throw Everything he's said previously out of the window. So with this experience, what Maximo says could in deed be the facts.

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  10. #10
    I'll be waiting, be sure. Yoru's Avatar
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    I like maximo's theory

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