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  1. #1
    Senior Member Maximo's Avatar
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    Claymore Ichigo/Aizen - Yin/Yang

    Im gonna just go and say it, Aizen already used Shikai, Bankai and Hollofication !!! Although, its not exactly true either, gonna explain later down bellow

    The reason why nobody noticed is obviously bcs Aizen didnt use the powers of his sword right ? However, dont you think there is something strange about Aizens sword ? Take another look .. yup, thats it - the sword is merged in with Aizen.

    What does this mean ? Dont know for sure right off the bate. However, Zanpakuto is said to be a living thing with its own power. Aizens Zanpakto merged with him bcs of the Chrysalis transformation into transcendental being (transcendental means a being who has the best qualities of shinigami and hollow but isnt either off them, or so I understand its concept)

    So now, if Aizen is "transcendental" then its highly possible that he lost his Zanpakuto .. no, rather, it merged with him and with HGQ but as a result it lost its original powers.

    Still, as we have seen - Aizen transforms further !! Its not shinigamis Shikai, Bankai nor Espadas Ressurection .. these Aizens or Ichigos were transformations of Transcendentals. They also look veeery similiar to Ichigos transformations so far - most likely why Aizen thought that Ichigo was a worthy transcendental material.
    Lets take a look .. heres Aizens transformations first :

    Spoiler!

    Now Ichigos :

    Spoiler!


    There are similiarities but also .. notice the difference ! Im not talking about cosmetics here or the details, its more of a yin/yang kind of difference. I take it that even a transcendental being cannot be a perfect balance of shinigami and hollow. It has to turn slightly into one or the other direction.

    Ichigo slightly turns into shinigami direction. Thats why he is with the shinigamis, thats why his base of transformation is shinigami putting on a mask, etc. Aizen slightly turns into hollow direction. Thats why he is with the hollows, thats why his base of transformations is hollow nature (monster like), etc. Its just like Yin - Yang !!!

    Ichigo is not a vizard, he is a full transcendental !! Just like Aizen !

    IchigoAizen

    Final question - What happens if one devours the other, like if Aizen devours Ichigo or vise versa ? The circle will be complete and a true god might be born ? Maybe the Royal King is just like that ?!
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  2. #2
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    You mentioned Aizen's Bankai. Where is it?

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  3. #3
    Senior Member Maximo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hagane, the Ice Nomad View Post
    You mentioned Aizen's Bankai. Where is it?


    As I said before, this is what you call Bankai - but it is somethig entirely else since Aizen is no longer a shinigami !! Thats the point dude, you wont see any bankai from Aizen there. Its close to Ressurection though if that pleases you
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  4. #4
    Serial Killer Next Door LeaT's Avatar
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    I don't necessarily want to rack down on you, but either you are explaining the concept of "transcedental" poorly or you don't fully understand what it means even though you claim you do.

    Ok, let's do some basic Latin.

    Trans - to cross, for example a line or a boundary
    scandere - climb. You see the same verb in a word like "ascend", but then it has "ab" as a prefix (the b disappaered in later Latin and asc is easier to pronounce), where "ab" means "down" or "below".

    So, transcendental - climb over (a boundary, a line, a limit)

    By the way you imply things, Aizen can still use the "best of shinigami powers", and why would that not include his shikai (or bankai) if he can use kido? Or are you trying to argue that he was NOT transcended when he looked like a butterfly?

    Transcendental on the other hand, the way it should be understood, means that you are above shinigami and hollow. You have acquired new and superior powers that surpass hollow and shinigami. There is no need to rely on any of those things.


    /semantics rant


    This is why I argue that Aizen is not transcended at all, he just think he is. There is a limit of what the hogukyoku can do which is dictated by rules of probability; and because Aizen is now completely ruled by the hogukyoku it can only take one out of the two possible evolutionary paths: that of hollow. Why? Because Aizen started as a shinigami, and the only way for him to acquire new powers would be to explore the powers of hollow. Ultimately, this boils down to my basic argument: that hollow and shinigami is the same but reflect two different sides of the human psyche: the id and the super-ego.

    Ichigo on the other hand, who is originally based upon a human soul, can truly transcend because he got the third component that allows him to: he is also part human. Aizen does not have this. For him that third component would be the hogukyoku, but since it is artifical as opposed to natural, what will happen is that he will also experience an artifical evolution but it will not be truly transcendental.

    Now, for your actual arguments. The reason why Aizen initially thought Ichigo to be transcedental as himself is because Ichigo is one of Aizen's creations.

    Furthermore, you have to let go of shinigami/hollow powers being underlying the evolutionary process. For a being to be transcended of shinigami and hollow, it means it can be neither of those things, thus, the evolutionary path taken has nothing to do with neither shinigami or hollow anymore. It's something new entirely. When people argue that Ichigo's new form is a perfect blend of shinigami and hollow, they are exactly arguing for the concept of Ichigo having transcended both limits.

    To clarify what I mean. Let's take a vizard as an example. A vizard is a shinigami who has evolved to acquire some new powers beyond the shinigami ones (a mask), but a vizard is still a shinigami with hollow powers. Do you understand what I mean? It's like when we study taxanomy of animals. Some birds can no longer fly and have evolved a way to quickly run while others can swim well. None of these types can fly. Yet they are still birds. But what is Ichigo? If he used to be a vizard (shinigami with hollow powers) and has evolved beyond that point, then he can no longer be a shinigami with some hollow powers. Instead, we have to speak of a new race instead of species within a race. (I know, I am nerdy...)

    Furthermore, if Aizen is becoming more hollow and thus monster-like, then what is Ichigo...? More human? On the contrary, it seems that while Aizen is becoming more humane (showing emotions), Ichigo is actually doing the opposite.

    Lastly, for your conclusion: the whole point of the Yin and Yang concept are two completely different opposing powers constantly struggling to be in balance. When balance is achieved, then TRUE power is born. This is why proponets of a perfect blend of shinigami/hollow theory argue that this is the cause why Ichigo is stronger. If one side would devour another, then it is not balance, that is overpower (which is what happened when Ichigo relied too much upon hollow Ichigo's powers, he turned into an emotional state of imbalance and it severely limited him). One side will become completely dominant and chaos will reign.
    Last edited by LeaT; 09-10-2010 at 05:08 PM.
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  5. #5
    Senior Member Maximo's Avatar
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    I am not the writer but I think if Aizen could use Hypnosis on Ichigo then he would have already. Aizen seemed desperete to finnish him off didnt he ?

    Plus, there has to be a reason why Kubo merged Aizen with his Zanpakto. Something like that is not just for "the show". I think Aizen needed the power from his Zanpakuto for Chrysalis period (when he was turning into transcendetal) so now it might got "used" up entirely ?

    From the looks of it, Aizen pretty much transceeded shinigami and hollow. It might be artifical thanks to HGQ but still. Ichigo is naturaly transceeded as you said LeaT, maybe thats why he is able to reach higher then Aizen.

    Yin Yang wasnt my "conclusion" but an observation. I just figured that Ichigo as transceeded is similiar to a concept of Yin - lot of good with a portion of bad. Aizen is similiar to Yang concept bcs he has lots of bad with a portion of good. I wasnt comparing stuff like balance or power.

    And yes, transcendental beings should be understood as a new "species" next to shinigamis and hollows. That was also my point but nobody noticed as I see D: Vizards are after all an experiment, just like Espadas - they might seem they "transcede" but instead they are just borrowing a small portion of the other sides powers.

    It may be however that Ulquiorra was something close to transcendental being as he was the only one capable of evolving much higher then the rest of Espadas - yet, in comfrontation with a real transceeded being like Ichigo he couldnt do anything.
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  6. #6
    Serial Killer Next Door LeaT's Avatar
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    1. How could Aizen possibly release his sword without Ichigo noticing? Sometimes it's not a question whether he could use it, but whether he was able to get to the point where he could use it.

    2. Maybe there isn't any deeper reason than pure aesthetics. Sometimes the most simpler answer is the most obvious. I don't see how any theory why Aizen merged with his sword would solve any of the topics we usually discuss

    3. Artifical ultimately means fake. It appears evolutionary when it is not. This is my point. There is a limited amount of evolutionary paths Aizen can take; purely transcending is not one of those.

    4. I see, but you still added the part about "devouring".

    5. I was not saying transcendental should be understood as species, but as race. There is a difference. A race consists of species. The problem is that race and species have become pretty much interchangable in many European languages. In biology, they are not. That's why vizards are a subspecies of shinigami, which is a race.

    6. Let's not go into a discussion about Ulquiorra... To me he was just a more advanced arrancar, but still an arrancar. If you want to explicitly discuss Ulquiorra, let's do that in the VL thread where such a discussion would more properly belong.
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  7. #7
    Senior Member veLocity-'s Avatar
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    Ulquiorra did not necessarily "transcede". Transcending, in the context of Bleach, is to go beyond a Shinigami and a Hollow. Becoming a Vasto Lorde/Arrancar or a Vaizard does not make a Hollow and a Shinigami a transcendent, respectively. However, in Aizen's case, he's saying that he is a transcendent but that's just Aizen's mentality. He's always wanted to become something more, note him stating that his Shinigami body was limiting his full potential.

    That being said, LeaT put it quite well, Aizen just thinks he is a transcendent as he's always wanted to be and especially now that Aizen thinks the H-cube is serving his will, he's become relatively delusional and convinced that the H-cube would not let him die. Instead, Aizen thinks that the H-cube is allowing his spiritual self to "transcend". But it is evident that Aizen has now become more Hollow like as - in my opinion - because he detests his Shinigami power.

    In that context, the Ying and Yang applies as the Hollow (whether black or white) has begun to dominate the Shinigami side.

    Ichigo, on the other hand has realised he was depending on his Hollow side too much. This is why TZangetsu lectured him and pulled out Hollow Ichigo to remind him of what is inside of his spiritual self. In a way TZ did not want to be overwhelmed and wanted to help Ichigo progress, regardless of what he said to him.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maximo View Post


    As I said before, this is what you call Bankai - but it is somethig entirely else since Aizen is no longer a shinigami !! Thats the point dude, you wont see any bankai from Aizen there. Its close to Ressurection though if that pleases you
    Right, because we CLEARLY heard him say a release command for it. Oh, wait, we DIDN'T.

    I think he still has yet to show his Bankai. Also, this Form deal has me experiencing DBZ flashbacks, specifically the Frieza arc.

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