Nagato, Son of Madara?

[Execution]

Let me begin by stating that I came up with this theory after a question I had originally posted on the Naruto Ask a Question thread and is a direct result of the rather thought provoking reply's that I received. Therefore I shall begin by giving accreditation and reference them properly.

Original post

Spoiler!

Towards the beginning of the manga we are introduced to two unique eye kekkei genkai's the Sharingan and the Byakugan (then much later the Rinnegan if it can be even considered a kekkei genkai). During this part of the manga we are told that the Sharingan is said to be derived from the Hyuuga's Byakugan, later with the introduction of the SO6P we learn that the sages eyes were granted to the sages eldest son who founded the Uchiha clan whilst the younger brother who inherited his physical capabilities went on to found the Senju clan. Perhaps I missed something, but the given info leaves only a huge inconsistency with the origin of Dojutsu.

Q1: Where do you think the Byakugan came from anyway? The Sage is only said to have had two sons. (Could the Sharingan and Byakugan possibly be malformed deviations of the Rinnegan?)

Q2: If the eldest son Inherited the sages eyes why do the Uchiha not possess the Rinnegan?

Q3: Why do you think that Kishi originally alluded that the Sharingan originated from the Hyuuga?

Reply's

Spoiler!

There are some who theorize that the Rinnegan is a mutation from the Byakugan. Since the Sharingan came from the Spiritual half of the Rinnegan (the Elder Brother's line), the Sharingan could still be said to come from the Byakugan.

The original Rikudou possessing the Byakugan before achieving the Rinnegan makes some sense; since he was the first to discover the true nature of chakra, it makes sense that he may also have originally possessed the Byakugan, which allows greater understanding of the body's own chakra network.

The Uchiha lack the Physical energies of the Rikudou, which probably means they also never could possess the full Rinnegan. The Rikudou, and every subsequent Rikudou, has possessed Senju/Uzumaki Physical Energies (The First Rikudou simply possessed them from the start, Madara transplanted Hashirama's cells to gain these, and Nagato was an Uzumaki). I think the Rikudou only passed down the Spiritual component of his eyes to the Uchiha, which is why the Sharingan specializes in Genjutsu, space/time and perception of techniques.

The main thing is that I consider the Rinnegan to be representative of the "whole" Rikudou, his physical and spiritual energies. The same could be said for his "perfect" Izanagi, which created the Bijuu permanently and altered reality itself, not just his own personal reality like Danzou's weaker version. The occular power of the Rikudou may have been passed down to the Uchiha, but it was necessarily watered down because their bodies couldn't handle the complete power of the Rinnegan.

That's my understanding/theorycrafting.

Spoiler!

A1: The way I see it is that the SO6P started with the Rinnegan. He then gave half his power to each son, since you need both parts(the two is Senju and Uchiha, physical and spiritual) the Older couldn't get the whole Rinnegan so he got a sort of mix between Byakugan and Sharingan but based on the theory that the Sharingan evolved from the Byakugan it was more of a Byakugan than anything else. Somewhere down the line someone appeared with a different type of eye than the Byakugan and that is what we now today call the Sharingan.

A2: Guess I said most of it in A1.

A3: Now this is what baffles me. There is so much focus on Senju and Uchiha being the Older and the younger's sons descendants, but if it's correct that the Sharingan is only a mutation or branch out from the Byakugan then the Hyuga is a much better fit to play the part as the Older brother and the "bad guys". Why did Kishi do this? Maybe, and this is a big maybe, he wanted to show us that the Byakugan isn't some pussy dojutsu compared to the Sharingan, it's just that he want's to focus on the Sharingan because the members there are much more similar to the Older brother than the Hyuga. Or if you look at it this way, the Sharingan is the result of evolution, to adapt better and to increase the chances to survive nature grants you new ability's, and even tho SOME say that the Byakugan is stronger it's just stronger in some ways. Byakugan vs Sharingan? Byakugan wins. Byakugan vs MS? MS wins. Byakugan vs EMS? You already know the answer.

Maybe we have yet to see why, and with both Madara and Sasuke now getting ready for their final battles we might get to know. For Madara it will be his last fight in his very long life(if Tobi is Madara). Maybe even Itachi might shine some light at the matter, but I think that will only happen if he meets Madara or Sasuke and not if he meets Kabuto.

It seems that the general consensus is that the reason the Uchiha do not possess the Rinnegan and possess the Sharingan instead is because they lack the other half of the sage's power which was gifted to the Senju instead.

Yet if this were true then how did Nagato develop the Rinnegan? Sure he has some relation to the SO6P due to the fact that he is an Uzumaki, and they being distant relatives of the Senju means that he does possess Senju DNA, however he would still ultimately lack the Uchiha half, because they are the only ones that gained the sages Dojutsu capabilities.

This is where my theory Begins

Spoiler!

One could say that Madara was lying or that he simply did something to Nagato's eyes when he was a child, but why would Madara lie about something as trivial as this if he was going to take the eyes anyway I don't see a reason for him to gloat about something he didn't do, and if Madara possessed the Rinnegan beforehand why not simply keep it for himself?

And then there is this

Spoiler!

This clearly show's that prior to Nagato's parents dying the Rinnegan had not been awakened yet. So how could Madara claim to have given Nagato the Rinnegan without transplanting it, and even know that he possessed the potential to gain it in the first place? The only logical answer I have been able to come up with is that he could possibly be the illegitimate child of Madara Uchiha himself.

Under these circumstances it seems logical that Nagato (being an Uzumaki) could have been born with the Rinnegan by possessing both Senju and Uchiha blood. Also Madara would have been aware of Nagato long before anyone and be able to appropriately claim that he gave Nagato his Rinnegan. As for claiming it was his this could well be in Madara's nature as he claimed his own brothers eyes for his own long ago, and it is still unknown if this was done under willing circumstances.

I think it's possible that the Rinnegan could awaken much like MS by needing a tragedy to occur. Therefore I think it's possible that Madara could have placed Nagato with a surrogate family only to have them killed later for the purpose of awakening the Rinnegan. (It's possible that he could have tricked them into believing the child was theirs by using Genjutsu, or controlled them like he did the former Mizukage Yagura.)

I think this theory provides a plausible explanation of how the Rinnegan could have been brought back into the Narutoverse after the sage divided his powers between his sons. Though I look forward to any input.

[mo916]

good theory, but how does being born of the uzumaki clan make you have senju blood? The uzumaki clan was a separate clan altogether, in another village.

Although, it does make sense for Madara to have given Nagato the rinnengan because perhaps he was waiting to see if he could repair his sharingan first?

[Execution]

Perhaps I should have included this

Spoiler!

It is said that before Konohagakure was even founded the Senju and Uzumaki clans were already related by blood. Which is also the reason why the Jonin of Konoha wear the symbol of Uzushiogakure the Uzumaki's native land.


I might be willing to admit the possibility of Madara transplanting the Rinnegan into Nagato, but the Rinnegan eyes haven't been seen in the Narutoverse since the SO6P, and there is also the fact that Nagato had to awaken it himself while other eyes that have been transplanted so far have retained their former status (after all Kakashi wouldn't be able to use Obito's Sharingan, and Madara would have had to awaken the Rinnegan himself otherwise).

I also wonder how madara would even know if the eye he was giving Nagato was the Rinnegan without it being awakened yet.

[thorofasgard13]

Madara could possibly have given Nagato an un-awakened sharingan, then waited to see what would happen with the mix of Uzumaki blood.

[Execution]

That Might be possible though I don't think we have ever seen anyone implant an eye that has not been activated yet. For all we know unawakened eyes may be worthless without the proper genetics, which even if Nagato could activate it under these circumstances he would still ultimately lack.

I don't think that even having Senju blood would completely rid Nagato of the strain of using Dojutsu without possessing the spiritual energies inherited by the Uchiha. Nagato was able to use Rinnegan jutsu without strain as if his body was born with the innate capability to use them. Sure he wasn't as strong as the SO6P, but you really can't compare them the SO6P had way more experience and understanding than Nagato and was the jinchuriki of the Jyubi.

[Rlinfamous]

There have been a lot of theories as to how Nagato gained the necessary "Spiritual Energies" (Uchiha powers) to compliment his Uzumaki "Physical Energies" and gain the Rinnegan. The theories vary as to whether Nagato needs only the energies or a pair of upgradable eyes (Sharingan). Whichever is true, the idea is that he'd need substantial Spiritual Energies (Mangekyou/Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan) to awaken the Rinnegan, and must himself possess exceptional Physical Energies (Hashirama/Naruto-level body, basically).

It's possible that Madara didn't tamper with Nagato's actual eyes, and merely created the circumstances to allow Nagato to awaken his dormant, potential Rinnegan. If this were true, and grief alone was enough, not energies, then any "exceptional" Uzumaki could awaken the Rinnegan, just as "exceptional" Uchiha have awakened the Mangekyou Sharingan.

That said, we've seen Spiritual Energies transferred via Mangekyou before. Itachi placed some of his eye techniques (Mangekyou-level ones) in Sasuke before Sasuke ever obtained the MS himself. He also placed a foreign Mangekyou and a Spiritual Crow in Naruto. So it's possible that Madara could simply "transplant" his energies into Nagato. It'd certainly be easier than the reverse, transplanting Nagato's cells into an Uchiha, and Madara went that far to gain Hashirama's cells.

It's possible Madara actually did transplant eyes into Nagato (Genjutsu him to sleep, etc). It seems a little unlikely that sort of thing would go unnoticed, though. I also don't want to jump to the conclusion that Madara was Nagato's father, even though it's entirely possible (Genjutsu Nagato's mom to sleep, etc). I don't think Kishi would go for the Sharingan Date Rape in his Shounen Manga.

Another theory of mine is that the "Upgrades" in eye techniques actually precede the user obtaining the Spiritual Energies actually required to use the techniques. In other words, one must have substantial Spiritual Energies to gain the MS, but once they do gain it, they are upgraded to a whole new level. That's why only those with exceptionally trained/powerful Sharingan are able to awaken the MS, and why Madara didn't need to activate his MS to control the Kyuubi; his basic Sharingan was powerful enough.

If this were true, though, it could mean that Nagato had the strength to awaken the Rinnegan, and was then simply "upgraded" to the necessary Spiritual level of the eyes after he'd already achieved them.

I compare it to Saiyan power-ups... they need to be a certain level of strength to get to the next level of Super Saiyan, but then they actually do level up and achieve something far greater. I know it's a different manga, but that's the logic I've seen behind the eye power-ups. Just like only certain Saiyans can become Super Saiyans, only certain, gifted descendants of the Rikudou (Uzumaki/Senju/Uchiha) can obtain his eyes. The only question is how far each clan can go on their own, and how much of the power they must steal/transfer from the other clans.

[Execution]

There have been a lot of theories as to how Nagato gained the necessary "Spiritual Energies" (Uchiha powers) to compliment his Uzumaki "Physical Energies" and gain the Rinnegan. The theories vary as to whether Nagato needs only the energies or a pair of upgradable eyes (Sharingan). Whichever is true, the idea is that he'd need substantial Spiritual Energies (Mangekyou/Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan) to awaken the Rinnegan, and must himself possess exceptional Physical Energies (Hashirama/Naruto-level body, basically).

It's possible that Madara didn't tamper with Nagato's actual eyes, and merely created the circumstances to allow Nagato to awaken his dormant, potential Rinnegan. If this were true, and grief alone was enough, not energies, then any "exceptional" Uzumaki could awaken the Rinnegan, just as "exceptional" Uchiha have awakened the Mangekyou Sharingan.

The only Issue I have with this is that the Senju did not recieve the sages dojutsu capabilities and have shown no sign of possessing any dojutsu so without some Uchiha or Hyuga in his background naruto wouldn't be capable of dojutsu.

That said, we've seen Spiritual Energies transferred via Mangekyou before. Itachi placed some of his eye techniques (Mangekyou-level ones) in Sasuke before Sasuke ever obtained the MS himself. He also placed a foreign Mangekyou and a Spiritual Crow in Naruto. So it's possible that Madara could simply "transplant" his energies into Nagato. It'd certainly be easier than the reverse, transplanting Nagato's cells into an Uchiha, and Madara went that far to gain Hashirama's cells.

I agree that it's possible to transfer spiritual energies to someone, but the energies still originated from the donor and not the individual who needs them to perform the dojutsu so once the have exhausted them by using dojutsu I don't see them being able to make more by themselves unless their body is designed for that purpose. This is where chakra plays a role in making up for those missing energies and drains the users chakra instead.

This theory only works under the premise that spiritual energies from an outside source can fuel a persons dojutsu without having to be replenished.

Also even if it was a MS technique that Itachi implanted into Sasuke it wasn't Sasuke's own Mangekyo that used Amaterasu it was clearly Itachi's.

Spoiler!

It's possible Madara actually did transplant eyes into Nagato (Genjutsu him to sleep, etc). It seems a little unlikely that sort of thing would go unnoticed, though. I also don't want to jump to the conclusion that Madara was Nagato's father, even though it's entirely possible (Genjutsu Nagato's mom to sleep, etc). I don't think Kishi would go for the Sharingan Date Rape in his Shounen Manga.

lol who needs roofies when you have Sharingan

I do see what you're getting at censorship, appealing to a younger audience etc., but I think that if applied in a subtle manner it could be alright. He could simply disguise himself as someone else then the lines between Consensual and Non-consensual become slightly more vague. I'm sure that Kishi wouldn't go into explicit detail either way.

In all honesty I don't think it has to be Madara but I think that someone must possess both Senju and Uchiha genetics in order to form the Rinnegan properly. The Senju and Uchiha have always had some sort of animosity towards one another which might explain why the Rinnegan didn't show up until a time of peace between them and the Senju. It may have been another Uchiha/Uzumaki couple entirely who Madara had killed to awaken the Rinnegan considering that this was before the massacre though I doubt many left the village since Sasuke and Madara are considered to be the only Uchiha left alive which is why Madara is still my prime candidate.

Top left panel

Spoiler!

Another theory of mine is that the "Upgrades" in eye techniques actually precede the user obtaining the Spiritual Energies actually required to use the techniques. In other words, one must have substantial Spiritual Energies to gain the MS, but once they do gain it, they are upgraded to a whole new level. That's why only those with exceptionally trained/powerful Sharingan are able to awaken the MS, and why Madara didn't need to activate his MS to control the Kyuubi; his basic Sharingan was powerful enough.

If this were true, though, it could mean that Nagato had the strength to awaken the Rinnegan, and was then simply "upgraded" to the necessary Spiritual level of the eyes after he'd already achieved them.

I compare it to Saiyan power-ups... they need to be a certain level of strength to get to the next level of Super Saiyan, but then they actually do level up and achieve something far greater. I know it's a different manga, but that's the logic I've seen behind the eye power-ups. Just like only certain Saiyans can become Super Saiyans, only certain, gifted descendants of the Rikudou (Uzumaki/Senju/Uchiha) can obtain his eyes. The only question is how far each clan can go on their own, and how much of the power they must steal/transfer from the other clans.

I agree that the eye can be made stronger, yet still regarding non-Uchiha the Chakra drain is still far to great to be able to use the techniques in succession like Nagato did fighting both the Leaf Village and Naruto (Kakashi can still only use MS 3 times a day). The spiritual energies do play a massive role in Dojutsu combat effectiveness.

[Rlinfamous]

With regards to chakra drain via Sharingan/Rinnegan, I agree it's usually too much for a non-Uchiha. However, someone with exceptional Physical Energies (such as Hashirama or Naruto) can also handle the strain, perhaps even better than the Uchiha themselves. That's why Danzou equipped himself with those genes, allowing him to control 10 Sharingan and a Mangekyou Sharingan. It allows Shisui's jutsu to be used more than just once every 10 Years, which would normally be the limitation for even an Uchiha. Madara himself implemented Hashirama's cells before taking on the Rinnegan.

Basically what I'm getting at is an exceptional Senju/Uzumaki, even without possessing the powerful Uchiha Spiritual Energies, could probably still handle the stress of a transplanted Rinnegan/Sharingan.

But yeah, hopefully Kishi reveals the mystery behind Nagato's Rinnegan soon... I hoped that would come out when Nagato confronted Naruto, but all that we got out of Nagato was a lame fight scene and lazy dialogue. At least Itachi was more interesting.

[mo916]

Perhaps I should have included this

Spoiler!

It is said that before Konohagakure was even founded the Senju and Uzumaki clans were already related by blood. Which is also the reason why the Jonin of Konoha wear the symbol of Uzushiogakure the Uzumaki's native land.


I might be willing to admit the possibility of Madara transplanting the Rinnegan into Nagato, but the Rinnegan eyes haven't been seen in the Narutoverse since the SO6P, and there is also the fact that Nagato had to awaken it himself while other eyes that have been transplanted so far have retained their former status (after all Kakashi wouldn't be able to use Obito's Sharingan, and Madara would have had to awaken the Rinnegan himself otherwise).

I also wonder how madara would even know if the eye he was giving Nagato was the Rinnegan without it being awakened yet.

oops, forgot about Kushian saying that -.-

Dont get me wrong, i support your theory, its just that as evil as Madara is, i can't imagine him screwing a girl, lol.