[Theory] Sage mode requirements

[psukkar]

Lately I have been thinking about sage mode and it's origins and something interesting came to my attention when I did some extra manga reading on sage mode and the toads.

ONLY 4 shinobi have used toad sage mode that we are aware of, this is quite staggering. Naruto and Jiraiya are the sages of recent times and the previous other two sages are Ma and Pa frog and they are approx 800 YEARS OLD. So at least 800 years has past until the next two sages appeared (Naruto and Jiraiya). As you can see there's a very short list to the toad sage club. There have been a lot of shinobi that have failed in the past, all the frog stone statues at the toad mountain. Compare this to the MS sharingan users and they have had 4(madara,Izuna,Itachi and Sasuke) occurrences of it in the past 90 YEARS, although it wasn't until 90 years ago that Madara and Izuna were the first to activate the MS it never the less has a higher rate of probability of it compared to 2 sages over 800 years between Ma/Pa frog and Jiraiya/Naruto.

So far all we know about sage mode is you need large amounts of chakra as natural energy easily takes over small chakra reserves users AND guts(the will to never give up, interesting enough that's Naruto and Jiraiya's ideology of how a ninja should live). Surely there must have been shinobi in the past with those attributes and yet so many have failed. Not even many toads can use toad sage mode, only Pa and Ma frog can use it so a toad contract doesn't increase the chances either. There is also the Great Toad Sage (大ガマ仙人, Ōgama Sennin) but more on him latter.

"Sage" can also refer to an individual renowned for their great power, wisdom, or holy standing. I think the Great Toad Sage is called a sage because hes lived a long time and with age(1000+) comes wisdom, also lets not forget he can see the future in his dreams adding to his all knowing demeanor. Similarly the Sage of Six Paths also could have been called a sage for same reasons. He was the first to understand the mysteries of chakra illustrating his wisdom, which back then would have looked godlike among others. Not to mention he had great power to save the world from the Jubi and got even more power after he became its host. And finally he also was a holy man, he originally was Monk and started to preach a his own religion, Nin-shuu which later became modern ninjutsu but used for power not peace like the So6P intended.
(Naruto 446 | Read naruto chapter 446 manga online | Manga Share, Naruto 446 | Read naruto chapter 446 manga online | Manga Share)

So I'm assuming, the Great Toad Sage and the Sage of 6 paths are sages because of their wisdom/power/holiness. Other wise you'd think pa frog would mention the Great Toad Sage as one of Naruto's predecessor of sage mode. But I can be wrong, if either one of them are shown using toad sage mode in the future.

There must be a unique requirement to use toad sage mode similar to bloodline limits, only time will tell.Some people think that toad sage mode is a bloodline limit but there has been 4 toad sages all of which are NOT GENETICALLY RELATED. So bloodline limit is NOT the ANSWER to describe this rarity in the history of Naruto. Another possible theory, maybe just like how a shinobi has an affinity to a certain nature chakra element like wind, a shinobi may need an affinity to natural energy to use it with his own chakra and therefore enter sage mode. This could explain why only 4 shinobi in the history of Naruto have used toad sage mode. This actually doesn't sound so far fetched as you can have an affinity to a certain animal to use it as a summoning. Jiraiya had a very good affinity to the toads as he was able to come into contact with the toads even before signing a blood contact via the summoning technique. This could have something to with the degree of how well you are able to use natural energy. Though you could also argue this was fate as the toad sage predicted this would happen and same goes for Naruto in a way, as he too ended up being the destined child which the toad sage predicted also. The toad sage didn't predicted it would be Naruto but he did predict it would be one of Jiraiya's students.

I think this is quite interesting and I'm hoping Kishi elaborates more about Sage Mode's origins.

Here are some to other ideas Ive had about sage mode you may find interesting.

SAGE MODE, Naruto's KEY to becoming a COMPLETE SAGE

Spoiler!

I didn't want to start a new thread or anything because I see the toad sage mode being an important step for Naruto to become a complete sage like Madara(Uchiha+senju) will be with the rinnegan. Also this would be a good way for kishi to explain more about toad sage.

Madara now has the following that makes him a complete So6P.
1) So6P's power (Uchiha+senju)

• The So6P's body - Senju clan inherited.

• The So6P's Life force energy -Senju clan inherited

• The So6P's Spiritual energy - Uchiha clan inherited

• The So6P's strength of chakra - Uchiha clan Inherited (Kishi hasn't gone to the details of whats the strength of chakra exactly, will take his word for it for now. I have a theory regarding this if want to read it...http://www.narutobase.net/forums/showthread.php?t=46641)

2)So6P's eyes (Rinnegan), Uchiha Madara has the sharingan so he needs the Rinnegan. The elder son inherited them from his father but the Uchiha clan did not. This the one key difference that keeps true to the fact that the Rinnegan is extremely rare and there aren't any clans filled with Rinnegans like the Uchiha clan with the sharingan.(http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/ch...2/page012.html)

So a lot are thinking either Sasuke or Naruto could pull a Madara and between them they could get some competition for madara.

But I have 3 problems with this.
1) Naruto killing Sasuke for his eyes, simply isn't his style and would make all that painful "your friend" stuff for nothing. Keep in mind he said he won't kill sasuke which at the time was painful to hear but after learning about what madara been up too I'm glad he said that.
2) Naruto with a bloodline limit in particular eye techniques would bother the hell out of me.
3) Don't you guys think it would sweet revenge if Madara got owned by someone without a bloodline limit considering all of that Madara talk of "can't touch me" attitude.

I think Naruto ALREADY has got all the pieces to the puzzle to make a complete sage SIMILAR to Madara.

Naruto is a distant blood relative to the senju, so this means Naruto has inherited something comparable to the So6P's body and the Uzumaki clan are blessed with a long life expectancy which can be translated into strong life force energy. This was particularly obvious when Naruto used the fox's spiritual(yang) energy sealed within him and his chakra reacted with Yamato's wood jutsu the same way the so6p's yang bloodline gives life to physical forms. I'm guessing the fox's spiritual energy amplified Naruto chakra's characteristics to be more like the senju clan(they are DISTANT relatives after all) and therefore the so6P's yang bloodline limit also.

He also just got a large amount of the fox's spiritual's energy, which is also a strong spiritual energy, also Naruto is a Toad sage so he has sage eyes, obviously not the Rinnegan like the So6P but nevertheless. And finally naruto has a stronger chakra when in his toad sage mode, Pa frog stated senjutsu chakra is a stronger chakra compared to regular chakra.

So Naruto has all the comparable components of the So6P's sons shared amongst each other from the So6P.

1) A comparable So6P body as the Senju clan via his lineage with the Uzumaki clan.
2) Life force energy also comparable to the one the Senju clan inherited via his linage with the Uzumaki clan.
3) Spiritual energy thanks to the yang(spiritual) part of the fox's chakra sealed within Naruto by his father Minato(what a genius). Again also could be comparable back to the Juubi and the So6P.
4) Sage eye's via senjutsu, again not the same as So6P but sage eyes of sorts.
6) And finally sage chakra also via senjutsu which is a stronger chakra than regular chakra.

I don't think nor want Naruto to be the next Sage of Six Paths but he certainly can be a representative. Naruto is predicted to cause a great change to the Naruto world like the So6p did, but why does he have to do it old school style(So6P). Naruto is a new type of sage of his own right, in fact that would be great way to end the series whether Naruto lives or dies.

SAGE MODE + FOX MODE COMBO MODE

Spoiler!

As for combining the two modes(sage+fox modes), here's a quite plausible idea how Naruto could do it. Killerbee said to Naruto he couldn't use shadow clones while in fox mode then Naruto said how am I supposed to make rasengans now. Then killer-bee said the illusion in your head can do the the job of the extra shadow clone. So with the same deductions, Naruto could gather natural energy with the illusion while Naruto accesses the fox's chakra. We already saw Naruto have a fight against the fox within his mind and he went into sage mode. So its not out of the question. Since naruto has to trade up chakra for using the fox, sage chakra may not be something the fox would like to absorb too much of. Considering how everything that so far that has absorbed too much sage chakra and wasn't well costumed to balancing it, turned into stone.
http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/ch...4/page006.html
http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/ch...9/page013.html

SAGE MODE and NATURE TRANSFORMATIONS of chakra

Spoiler!

Before you get ahead of yourselves guys this not one those sage mode gives affinities to all chakra elements thread. This is different and focuses on the training aspect of nature transformation of chakra regardless if you have an affinity to that element or not. Also this isn't only targeted towards Naruto in particular but since he uses sage mode and a lot of us suspect he may have a 2nd chakra element he is most applicable for this theory.

So what I'm theorizing here is.

Can sage mode HELP a user LEARN nature transformations? I believe it can and here is my theory on the matter.

Sage mode has shown the ability to visualize chakra within the users mind as shown with Naruto which he located Nagato during the Konoha attack. Also Naruto was able to distinguish between chakras such as Hinata and Kakashi during the same konoha attack. Here are the pages where Naruto is visualizing his own sage chakra and tracing it back to Nagato via the chakra disruption rods to Nagato.
http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/ch...1/page013.html
http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/ch...1/page014.html

Similarly when learning nature manipulation each chakra element has its own way the user needs to visualize his own chakra to carry out the training. For example Naruto asked Asuma for help regarding wind nature chakra, and Asuma said to visualize his chakra as two parts grinding against each other making each part sharper and sharper. This is where Asuma tells Naruto about the visualizations regarding wind nature chakra.
http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/ch...7/page013.html

So can sage mode help a user visualize this for chakra elements? But how would it know you may ask? And the answer is the connection with Natural energy with all things in the environment. If Naruto entered sage mode where there are areas of lots of water or fire or wind or any of the elements the natural energy within these natural wonders may help Naruto understand how to undergo nature transformations with the help of understanding how natural energy interacts with the elements out in the environment.

I suspect it will be ma/pa/great toad frog will reveal this aspect of sage mode due to their vast experience with sage mode. Similar to kakashi who told Naruto of shadow clones other uses of learning something which he didn't try when using shadow clones all those years before hand.

SENSORY NINJA ABILITIES VS SAGE MODE SENSING ABILITIES

Spoiler!

Sensory ninja are different in my opinion and sage mode goes about things differently when it comes to sensing and wouldn't be able to what I'm saying in my theory above. So far, they haven't gone into how sensor ninja skills work but we know for sure sage mode has a visual aspect to the sensing, a mental projection may call it.

What we can tell from sensor ninjas, once they sense a certain chakra they then memorize that feeling(dark,bright, chakra amount, chakra flow etc..) and associate it to that person when they actually SEE THE PERSON after they have sensed it. That's how they identify targets with chakra, sense a chakra then see that person and memorize that correlation. For example Karin couldn't tell it was Naruto who was surrounding her, sasuke, jugo and Suigetsu with hundreds of clones, only that there were are a lot of the same chakra everywhere(this was during the itachi hunt arc). But she could locate Danzo without seeing him for Sasuke while he was fighing the raikage as she saw him enter the kage meeting before the meeting started.

Sage mode on the other hand is able to visualize what the user is sensing and able to associate that to a person without needing to see the targets beforehand. For example when Naruto returned to fight Nagato, he knew he didn't sense Kahashi's chakra in the village even though he's never sensed his chakra before, but he knew he wasn't there and the same with Hinata. So sage mode in a way is like a crystal ball scouting an area mentally visualizing what's present in the area. That's the only way for Naruto to actually know Kakashi's chakra wasn't in the village at the time among all the other villagers, Naruto was mentally searching for kakashi's chakra and as we all know he found no signs it due to the fact that Nagato killed him, but he revive him at the end of the fight. Look at the pictures of Naruto tracking down Nagato again, hes actually seeing within his MIND where the chakra is going. Quite incredible if you think about.

[fumokun]

didnt the 4th hokage use sage mode aswell?

[kuroihikari]

First, we don't know if there were only four shinobi who could use Sage mode.

Second, there's no such thing as an affinity to Natural energy. If there were, then Naruto wouldn't have had to worry about turning to stone.

Sage mode's requirements are exactly what was stated to us: Large chakra and guts. Large chakra is required so that you won't get unbalanced so quickly and turn to stone. Guts is required so that you can complete the training on how to balance it. There are also 2 other hidden requirements: That you know the way to Myoubokuzan and that the frogs would be willing to teach you. I don't think there's any reason to believe that there are other requirements aside from meeting those four.

[psukkar]

First, we don't know if there were only four shinobi who could use Sage mode.

Second, there's no such thing as an affinity to Natural energy. If there were, then Naruto wouldn't have had to worry about turning to stone.

Sage mode's requirements are exactly what was stated to us: Large chakra and guts. Large chakra is required so that you won't get unbalanced so quickly and turn to stone. Guts is required so that you can complete the training on how to balance it. There are also 2 other hidden requirements: That you know the way to Myoubokuzan and that the frogs would be willing to teach you. I don't think there's any reason to believe that there are other requirements aside from meeting those four.

You need a large amount of chakra to draw in large amounts of natural energy. If you don't draw in enough nature energy you won't enter sage mode. The ablity of balancing the two is something differernt altogether which requires skill in chakra control.

I said theory not fact with regards to nature energy affinity. And just because you have an affinity nature energy deosn't mean you wouldn't have to worry about turning into stone. For example the same way you have to train and master your elemental affinity, having an elemental affinity just makes it easier to do the training.

I agree with you about being taugh by someone who has worked out how do it increases your chances alot. But you haven't really addressed the rarity of the Toad sages throughout Naruto history. So far we haven't been told there are toad sages before Pa and Ma frog and they are approx 800 years old. Pa frog said the stone statues were the ones who have failed the training before them. And these statues are located at the toad mountain, so simply finding the toad mountain doesn't help. And whos to say you need to be at the toad mountaion to learn sage mode, only the toad oil can be found/used at the mooutain which is only used to speed up the training, it can be done without the oil and therefore outside the toad mountain.

[kuroihikari]

You need to be at Myoubokuzan to learn sage mode because the toads are there. Unless we see people with sage mode in the future, we're going to have to assume that sage mode only comes from the frogs at Myoubokuzan.

The rarity means nothing, at least for now. It could just mean that the frogs don't want to teach any random ninja a technique as powerful as sage mode, and of those that they've decided to teach, not everyone passed. Alternatively, they could not have perfected the training until Jiraiya's time there.

[StareIntoMySharingan]

it's origin was buddha, read your manga.

[kuroihikari]

You need a large amount of chakra to draw in large amounts of natural energy. If you don't draw in enough nature energy you won't enter sage mode. The ablity of balancing the two is something differernt altogether which requires skill in chakra control.

Eh, that's a cause and effect fallacy. You're reversing your cause and effect. The effect is drawing in large amounts of natural energy while the cause is you having a large amount of chakra and that you have to balance their amounts. Not the other way around.

The cause for why you need a large amount of chakra on the other hand, is an entirely different matter. The most logical explanation is that if you only have a little chakra, it's easy to make a mistake and draw in too much, especially with toad oil on.

[Hand Banana]

kuroihikari kills another thread before I could even troll it. Fuck. nice work man. I'm getting too old for this.

[psukkar]

kuroihikari kills another thread before I could even troll it. Fuck. nice work man. I'm getting too old for this.

Hey banana, you again. Lol stoping even looking at forums lol, not willing to say anything with meaning, then don't say anything at all. And how are old are u exactly? And I think you cltr V that post because Ive seen you type in other places aswell. It seems you go around posting that for the yell of it. I gotta admit its a good way to rack up the post count.

[psukkar]

it's origin was buddha, read your manga.

I meant orgins as in the Naruto world.