How did the 1st Hokage defeat Uchiha Madara?

[psukkar]

There's a lot mystery regarding this fight, so I just thought I'd share my thoughts on this fight.

A DETAILED flashback is required to know how this fight went down. I think a movie on this these two clans would BE PREFECT.

There are few things I noticed about this battle and the pages leading up to the page we saw (Madara x Fox) vs Hashirama.

The thing I wondered about this fight is why did Madara even summon/call the fox to the fight?

Based from the flashback pages it was made as through Madara and Hashirama were near equals and they have fought many times. So if in fact they were rivals in terms of power that would explain why they survived the many encounters they fought.

So I reenacted how I think the fight went down.

Spoiler!

Madara as a last ditch effort fought Hashirama with the EMS for the first time.

He somehow was losing the fight most likely due to Hashirama's stamina as he inherited his body's perfection from the So6P AND his VAST knowledge of techniques(The Third hokage actually talks a little about this at very start of the manga).

So to try and win the fight even after the element of surprise (EMS) failed he called/summoned the Fox. Now I believe at this point it was a fight between Hashirama and the nine tails as Madara surely would have been exhausted by then.

For those who don't understand how I came up the conclusion how Hashirama hasn't seen the EMS before this fight was from the order of events shown in the manga.
1) It was first shown Madara and Hashirama have fought many times.
2) Madara mentions the fights with Hashirama got him famous and the Uchiha clan's enemies grew from the encounters with the Senju clan. So Madara took he's brothers eyes to obtain EMS for the clan's protection or for himself, either case it doesn't matter.
3) The Senju clan made a truce, and the Uchiha accepted.
4) Hashirama becomes the the First hokage.
5) Madara revolts and challenges(THE FIGHT) Hashirama for the leaf village position.

He can't have had EMS before he took his brother's eyes(2).
Although they could have fought before the truce(3) and after he took his brother's eyes(2).
Also when Madara stated Hashirama gave away the bujj as peace offerings to the other villages he was shown to be wearing the Hokage gown. So this only could have happened after he became hokage(4) and either BEFORE OR AFTER the fight with Madara(5). ONLY A DETAILED FLASHBACK/GAIDEN/MOVIE CAN TELL US FOR SURE when these events actually happened.

But the most amazing thing you could say from this fight is HOW THE **** did Hashirama subdue the FOX. Now I know a lot of you are gonna say "but Hashirama could control the bujj" but Madara already was manipulating the Fox to do his biding so Hashirama would have had to attack Madara, stop him then suppress the Fox. The reason I think Hashirama would had to deal with Madara first then the fox is because of this. When the fox was under the hypnotic control from the sharingan, I was assuming Hashirama would suppress the fox's chakra like how yamato did for Naruto in 4 tail mode. But this would not stop the mind control from the sharingan would it. From the recent chapter(490) we found out the fox has his power split up into two, mind and chakra. The sharingan would control the mind portion and therefore order the fox around, while Hashirama would only suppress the chakra part. So for Hashirama to get rid of the fox completely from the battlefield he would have had to stop the mind control from Madara by attacking Madara, then he be able to get rid of the fox from the battlefield.

So to sum up the fight, it when like this;

1) Madara (EMS) vs Hashirama ... Madara then says oh shit hes still wining.
2) Madara controls Fox vs Hashirama .... Hashirama SOMEHOW subdues the fox.
3) Hashirama knocks out Madara to stop the link between Madara and the fox.
4) Hashirama suppresses the Fox, Fox leaves.
5) Hashirama somehow with his bullshit stamina lands the final blows to an already exhausted Madara.
6) Hashirama believes Madara is dead and SOMEHOW more bullshit occurs where Madara survived the WHOLE ORDEAL.

Buuj theory

Spoiler!

The other theory popping around this fight is that Hashirama used bujjs himself and would certainly complain lot. But I'm not really convinced Hashirama used any at all. When Madara was talking about this fight(to Sasuke) and about Hashirama's abilities he would have mentioned he used multiple tailed beasts against him. There's no reason for Madara to hold back on the truth like that, it would only make him look A LOT weaker compared to Hashirama. The whole reason he wanted to go against the leaf village was to prove to the world the Uchiha were equals with the Senju(As Hashirama was chosen to be Hokage) and by lying like that it would stand against his principles and beliefs back then. Madara also said Hashirama was the only person he admired, so by saying Hashirama simply used multiple bujjs to defeat him would take away from Hashirama's stature as a shinobi. So basically he could have just have easily said Hashirama used multiple tailed beasts and no one would known the truth anyway. But he didn't.

New Ideas about the first hokages powers and fight run down

Spoiler!

I just thought I mention new speculations mentioned by other guys/myself in this thread, saves you from reading every page of the latest ideas of how this fight went down courtesy of the events shown of how the forth hokage managed to stop the nine tail fox.

We found out recently Mito sealed the fox within the herself, how or when is unknown. Maybe this happened during the fight similar to the forth hokage's encounter. This at the very least takes the fox out the equation leaving the first hokage and Madara to duke it out. I highly doubt Mito wouldn't have been then able to fight using the fox then and there after the sealing. Why you ask? Look how long it took Naruto to control the fox, to think Mito would have been able to do it then and there then start fighting seems way to far fetched. I guess a flashback like the one we got for forth hokage would tell us for sure. Which by the way I think will come because it would add to the story as we would find out how Madara survived, if tobi really ends up being Madara that is. http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/500/5

Another possibility is the first hokage completely halted/paralyzed the fox similar to that seal Yamato placed on Naruto as he entered 6-tail form but obviously a lot more powerful and disabled the fox from intervening with the battle and then it was sealed within Mito.

Once the fox is out of the picture this still leaves another challenge, Madara. Originally we thought time-space techs were only used by the Forth hokage, then saw Tobi(most advanced one to date) use them and now we know that the 2nd hokage can use similar time-space techniques as well. So this begs the question, do you think the first hokage knew space-time techs as well?

There's a element of the first hokage were not looking into too much, you guys recall the Scroll of seals, written by the first hokage(the one Naruto stole in the first chapter) well I notice there's a scroll with striking resemblance in the picture where Madara and the fox are faced off against the first, could it be the scroll of seals?
Maybe on this scroll there's time-space techs or for that matter other ridiculous techniques that make the shraingan techniques look average?

I think little by little Kishi is showing us how powerful the Senju clan were back in there Glory days.

Madara statement regarding his purpose of fighting the first hokage at the valley of the end and its implications.

Spoiler!

Madara stated he fought the first hokage to obtain his DNA, I wanted to add this here in this thread because I think there's more going on here as the implications of this statement start making us question Madara and the Rinnegan.

At want point do you think Madara knew if he took harahima's dna he would be closer to becoming the next So6P?

Feel free to discuss your viewpoint about this matter, but here's my take on all this.


We don't know how long after Madara left konoha did the fight with Harashima actually took place. All we know is that Madara left konoha 80+ years ago. I believe he learned about all this after he somehow survived the fight with Harasihma and here's why.

Judging from what Madara said during the kage summit the tablet left behind by So6p it tells you everything that happened between the Jubbi and the so6p, how the tailed beasts were created and both the Senju and Uchiha are ancestors of the so6p etc.... Which needs the Rinnegan to read the whole tablet to get the whole story.

So basically this means well at least to me if Madara's statement is correct, Madara acquired the Rinnegan sometime between he left Konoha and the fight with Harasihma to read the tablet and therefore understand if he could take Harashima's DNA and combine it with his own Uchiha DNA he would be the next so6p(And must survive by the way).

In my opinion Madara was simply an avenger during that time of this life and just wanted kill Harashima for dethroning him, even from his own clan. Madara knew Harashima was very strong from their past engagements and Harasihma's reputation from the rest of the shinobi world and more less even, judging by how Madara depicted the times of constant battle before the village system started. But what really confuses me about this if Madara just want the DNA and didn't care if he was defeated why would he bring the fox into this battle? This another reason why I highly doubt Madara's intentions of this fight of only being the DNA. I believe Madara thought he could get the upper hand on him by bringing in the fox into the battle which he knew he could do because of what he could read from the tablet with his MS/EMS and hoped that he could kill Harasihma.

But he lost, which further makes me believe Madara didn't know Harashima could suppress the bujj and therefore the senju and the uchiha were ancestors of the so6p. He lost and SOMEHOW SURVIVED and simply got lucky he found some remains of Harashima on the epic battlefield and sometime later via SOMEHOW getting his hands on the Rinnegan formulated a plan over the next 80 years to be ruler of the world with the Rinnegan and Harashima's DNA. Which looks like now he is well on his way in doing, only the Juubi is left for him to revive.

That's how I see things at the moment, and the reason why is I don't believe madara's words to konan completely word for word. Because the connection with madara and the rinnegan is a COMPLETE MYSTERY. Originally the Muzikage at the kage summit speculated madara got nagato to read the tablet but this too is now challenged. We don't know what happened and that's FACT. Either way you look at it, someone is lying about what happened in the past. At the moment I believe madara isn't being truthful, which by the way this isn't the first time eg..forth hokage fight and what he told Sasuke of what happened in that fight.

Here are other scary notions of what Hashirama had to deal with, the Fox had hes FULL powers this was before the Forth sealed half of the Fox's chakra and we all know what 6-8 tails can do from Naruto. Also as stated by Itachi when you gain EMS you get a NEW technique. And based from the sharingan techniques we've seen already it's most likely another bullshit technique. Pretty astounding stuff.

Again please remember this is just SPECULATION. Thanks to the recent information about the fox I was able to think up of decent reenactment of the fight.

Amongst all the mystery lying around this fight one thing has been answered about the degree of control the first hokage has over the tailed beasts. The first hokage could not control the fox's mind to order it around like Madara does via the sharingan. He could only suppress it's chakra and therefore he needed it in a person to control it completely to help him and konoha in the future (Like what Naruto does for Konoha now), otherwise why would he need Mito to seal the fox in within herself if he could control the fox like Madara.

[lunchroomclassic]

An arc on the uchiha senju feud would blow my mind.

But I don't think the first had a hard time with the kyuubi. Everyone says the only 2 that could really control them were madara and the 1st. The 1st gave out tailed beasts to other villages. After that fight with madara he put the leash on the kyuubi and walked him home.

[merciless]

Uhm madara gained the EMS long before the village of konoha was formed, so he already fought him/senju bunch of times with EMS

[psukkar]

It's hard to say for sure based from the info we got in the manga.
But it could be possible they might have fought some time after madara took he's brother's eyes and before the truce from the senju.

[Afro Thunda]

It's hard to say for sure based from the info we got in the manga.
But it could be possible they might have fought some time after madara took he's brother's eyes and before the truce from the senju.

It isn't hard to say based on the info from the manga. Actually, the manga makes it pretty clear that Madara (with his EMS) and the 1st fought many times before their final battle at the VoTE. It's all in chapter 398 and 399. So EMS was no secret to the 1st which could only mean that EMS provided no significant advantage to Madara in that fight. At least not any advantage that the 1st wasn't able to overcome.

There's no secret or anything as to how the 1st beat Madara. The 1st just brought the beatdown. He had the abilities to deal with the Kyuubi as shown in the full page spread showing a glimpse of the battle. The 1st summoned trees and roots to hold the Kyuubi down. Couple that with his ability to suppress Bijuu, the Kyuubi becomes a non-factor in that fight. Then it's an old fashioned, one on one fight to the death between Madara with his EMS and Fire element (+ whatever else he was capable of), and the 1st with his Wood, Water, and Earth element (+ whatever else he could do). And based on what we know, it seems the 1st was the better fighter that day.

[Stev3child]

Its not that complicated as Afro has stated. It's most likely that Madara lost his composure due to the emotional backlash of having what you considered your family abandon you for your enemy, and he probably lost his momentum in battle after his Kyuubi rampage was foiled. Those 2 factors plus the fact that Hashirama and Madara were evenly matched, could have easily tipped the scale to the First's favor.

[Phixion]

Didn't they mention that the 1st had control over the tailed beasts 1 to 8? And he later distributed those over the multiple countries/villages. Iirc this was the case, so he could easily beat the 9 tails with this.

[Raymond Agustin]

Didn't they mention that the 1st had control over the tailed beasts 1 to 8? And he later distributed those over the multiple countries/villages. Iirc this was the case, so he could easily beat the 9 tails with this.

Ah, I read that he kept 2 of the Tail Beast under his disposal to maintain order of the Ninja World and to stop future Wars.

It's not really clear how he did it though lol.

[Afro Thunda]

Didn't they mention that the 1st had control over the tailed beasts 1 to 8? And he later distributed those over the multiple countries/villages. Iirc this was the case, so he could easily beat the 9 tails with this.

It was left ambiguous as to exactly how many Bijuu the 1st had under his control before he distributed them across the Narutoverse. But using simple math, he had at least 5 for sure under his control back then. We just don't know if the 1st distributed them before or after the fight with Madara. I'm gonna assume they were handed out before the fight occurred though. If Madara was smart back then, that would have been the best time to initiate an attack on Konoha.

Ah, I read that he kept 2 of the Tail Beast under his disposal to maintain order of the Ninja World and to stop future Wars.

It's not really clear how he did it though lol.

I don't think it was stated anywhere in the manga that the 1st kept 2 Bijuu under his control. But I would assume that he would have at least kept the Kyuubi for Konoha (if the Kyuubi was one of the Bijuu he had in his possession).

[psukkar]

It isn't hard to say based on the info from the manga. Actually, the manga makes it pretty clear that Madara (with his EMS) and the 1st fought many times before their final battle at the VoTE. It's all in chapter 398 and 399. So EMS was no secret to the 1st which could only mean that EMS provided no significant advantage to Madara in that fight. At least not any advantage that the 1st wasn't able to overcome.

There's no secret or anything as to how the 1st beat Madara. The 1st just brought the beatdown. He had the abilities to deal with the Kyuubi as shown in the full page spread showing a glimpse of the battle. The 1st summoned trees and roots to hold the Kyuubi down. Couple that with his ability to suppress Bijuu, the Kyuubi becomes a non-factor in that fight. Then it's an old fashioned, one on one fight to the death between Madara with his EMS and Fire element (+ whatever else he was capable of), and the 1st with his Wood, Water, and Earth element (+ whatever else he could do). And based on what we know, it seems the 1st was the better fighter that day.

The manga did show they did fight many times but that was before madara took he's brothers eyes. Then all we saw after that was the truce from the senju.

I guess it all depends how literally your willing to take the order of events shown in the Manga. Only reason I took them quite literally is because we don't have any other info apart from when he was talking to Sasuke about his past.

Mangekyo Sharingan techniques aren't are simple matter to counter, we've seen Tyksomi and very few people broke out of it. The black flames are an absolute joke, itachi used them to beat a fire technique. Using fire to beat fire is ridiculous so those black flames are clearly not normal so I doubt the first's water moves would do anything. Sussano is one of those absolute defense/attack but I think the first could have dealt with this. Also as stated by Itachi when u gain ems you get a NEW technique. And based from the techniques we've seen already it's most likely another voodoo technique.

This thread isn't trying to doubt the first winning, he won and I'm happy about it goes to show the sharingan can be beat. What mystifies me is what kind of powers did the first have, he must have been real BOSS, this thread is just trying to put the fight into a realistic perspective.