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  1. #1
    Senior Member psukkar's Avatar
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    How did the 1st Hokage defeat Uchiha Madara?

    There's a lot mystery regarding this fight, so I just thought I'd share my thoughts on this fight.

    A DETAILED flashback is required to know how this fight went down. I think a movie on this these two clans would BE PREFECT.

    There are few things I noticed about this battle and the pages leading up to the page we saw (Madara x Fox) vs Hashirama.

    The thing I wondered about this fight is why did Madara even summon/call the fox to the fight?

    Based from the flashback pages it was made as through Madara and Hashirama were near equals and they have fought many times. So if in fact they were rivals in terms of power that would explain why they survived the many encounters they fought.

    So I reenacted how I think the fight went down.

    Spoiler!


    Buuj theory
    Spoiler!


    New Ideas about the first hokages powers and fight run down
    Spoiler!


    Madara statement regarding his purpose of fighting the first hokage at the valley of the end and its implications.

    Spoiler!


    Here are other scary notions of what Hashirama had to deal with, the Fox had hes FULL powers this was before the Forth sealed half of the Fox's chakra and we all know what 6-8 tails can do from Naruto. Also as stated by Itachi when you gain EMS you get a NEW technique. And based from the sharingan techniques we've seen already it's most likely another bullshit technique. Pretty astounding stuff.

    Again please remember this is just SPECULATION. Thanks to the recent information about the fox I was able to think up of decent reenactment of the fight.

    Amongst all the mystery lying around this fight one thing has been answered about the degree of control the first hokage has over the tailed beasts. The first hokage could not control the fox's mind to order it around like Madara does via the sharingan. He could only suppress it's chakra and therefore he needed it in a person to control it completely to help him and konoha in the future (Like what Naruto does for Konoha now), otherwise why would he need Mito to seal the fox in within herself if he could control the fox like Madara.
    Last edited by psukkar; 07-15-2011 at 04:47 PM. Reason: typos
    The Master's Legacy



    If a theory can't explain the mysteries of the past, it has little chance to explain the mysteries of the present and future.

  2. #2
    An arc on the uchiha senju feud would blow my mind.

    But I don't think the first had a hard time with the kyuubi. Everyone says the only 2 that could really control them were madara and the 1st. The 1st gave out tailed beasts to other villages. After that fight with madara he put the leash on the kyuubi and walked him home.

  3. #3
    shiro merciless's Avatar
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    Uhm madara gained the EMS long before the village of konoha was formed, so he already fought him/senju bunch of times with EMS

  4. #4
    Senior Member psukkar's Avatar
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    It's hard to say for sure based from the info we got in the manga.
    But it could be possible they might have fought some time after madara took he's brother's eyes and before the truce from the senju.

  5. #5
    Senior Member Afro Thunda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by psukkar View Post
    It's hard to say for sure based from the info we got in the manga.
    But it could be possible they might have fought some time after madara took he's brother's eyes and before the truce from the senju.
    It isn't hard to say based on the info from the manga. Actually, the manga makes it pretty clear that Madara (with his EMS) and the 1st fought many times before their final battle at the VoTE. It's all in chapter 398 and 399. So EMS was no secret to the 1st which could only mean that EMS provided no significant advantage to Madara in that fight. At least not any advantage that the 1st wasn't able to overcome.

    There's no secret or anything as to how the 1st beat Madara. The 1st just brought the beatdown. He had the abilities to deal with the Kyuubi as shown in the full page spread showing a glimpse of the battle. The 1st summoned trees and roots to hold the Kyuubi down. Couple that with his ability to suppress Bijuu, the Kyuubi becomes a non-factor in that fight. Then it's an old fashioned, one on one fight to the death between Madara with his EMS and Fire element (+ whatever else he was capable of), and the 1st with his Wood, Water, and Earth element (+ whatever else he could do). And based on what we know, it seems the 1st was the better fighter that day.

  6. #6
    Senior Member psukkar's Avatar
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    Eyeshield 21

    Quote Originally Posted by Afro Thunda View Post
    It isn't hard to say based on the info from the manga. Actually, the manga makes it pretty clear that Madara (with his EMS) and the 1st fought many times before their final battle at the VoTE. It's all in chapter 398 and 399. So EMS was no secret to the 1st which could only mean that EMS provided no significant advantage to Madara in that fight. At least not any advantage that the 1st wasn't able to overcome.

    There's no secret or anything as to how the 1st beat Madara. The 1st just brought the beatdown. He had the abilities to deal with the Kyuubi as shown in the full page spread showing a glimpse of the battle. The 1st summoned trees and roots to hold the Kyuubi down. Couple that with his ability to suppress Bijuu, the Kyuubi becomes a non-factor in that fight. Then it's an old fashioned, one on one fight to the death between Madara with his EMS and Fire element (+ whatever else he was capable of), and the 1st with his Wood, Water, and Earth element (+ whatever else he could do). And based on what we know, it seems the 1st was the better fighter that day.
    The manga did show they did fight many times but that was before madara took he's brothers eyes. Then all we saw after that was the truce from the senju.

    I guess it all depends how literally your willing to take the order of events shown in the Manga. Only reason I took them quite literally is because we don't have any other info apart from when he was talking to Sasuke about his past.

    Mangekyo Sharingan techniques aren't are simple matter to counter, we've seen Tyksomi and very few people broke out of it. The black flames are an absolute joke, itachi used them to beat a fire technique. Using fire to beat fire is ridiculous so those black flames are clearly not normal so I doubt the first's water moves would do anything. Sussano is one of those absolute defense/attack but I think the first could have dealt with this. Also as stated by Itachi when u gain ems you get a NEW technique. And based from the techniques we've seen already it's most likely another voodoo technique.

    This thread isn't trying to doubt the first winning, he won and I'm happy about it goes to show the sharingan can be beat. What mystifies me is what kind of powers did the first have, he must have been real BOSS, this thread is just trying to put the fight into a realistic perspective.
    Last edited by psukkar; 04-11-2010 at 02:19 PM.

  7. #7
    Senior Member Afro Thunda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by psukkar View Post
    The manga did show they did fight many times but that was before madara took he's brothers eyes. Then all we saw after that was the truce from the senju.

    I guess it all depends how literally your willing to take the order of events shown in the Manga. Only reason I took them quite literally is because we don't have any other info apart from when he was talking to Sasuke about his past.

    Mangekyo Sharingan techniques aren't are simple matter to counter, we've seen Tyksomi and very few people broke out of it. The black flames are an absolute joke, itachi used them to beat a fire technique. Using fire to beat fire is ridiculous so those black flames are clearly not normal so I doubt the first's water moves would do anything. Sussano is one of those absolute defense/attack but I think the first could have dealt with this. Also as stated by Itachi when u gain ems you get a NEW technique. And based from the techniques we've seen already it's most likely another voodoo technique.

    This thread isn't trying to doubt the first winning, he won and I'm happy about it goes to show the sharingan can be beat. What mystifies me is what kind of powers did the first have, he must have been real BOSS, this thread is just trying to put the fight into a realistic perspective.
    The info about Madara talking about his past is all you need cuz that's when he talks about when he encountered the 1st. You didn't have to take anything literally. It was all in the manga for you. Here's the pages you want to look at.

    Spoiler!

    Spoiler!

    Spoiler!

    Spoiler!


    I won't get in to what MS techniques Madara had since I don't believe he had the same techniques as Itachi and Sasuke. But if he did have the same MS techniques as them, then at least for Amaterasu, the 1st could just use his Wood element or even Earth element to defend against that. Wouldn't know how the 1st got around Susano though unless he just waited until Madara exhausted his chakra.

    I know the purpose of this thread. I even put the circumstances of the fight in a realistic (albeit, a very simplified) perspective. Also, I don't think anybody in this thread is doubting that the 1st won back then....

  8. #8
    Senior Member psukkar's Avatar
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    This may seem off topic but there could be a relation.

    We found out recently that the 2nd hokage could do space-time techs similar to the forth hokage.

    So this begs the question, do you think the first hokage knew space-time techs as well? Also, but I need someone's knowledge on this, but I recall something in a databook(I think 2) that tobi or Madara didn't have time-space techniques during that fight. So if this is true, this could be how he got the upper hand on Madara/fox.

    I think there's a element of the first hokage were not looking into too much, you guys recall the Scroll of seals, written by the first hokage(the one Naruto stole in the first chapter) well I notice there's a scroll with striking resemblance in the picture where Madara and the fox are faced off against the first, could it be the scroll of seals?
    Maybe on this scroll there's time-space techs?

    I think little by little Kishi is showing us how powerful the senju clan were.
    Last edited by psukkar; 07-16-2010 at 08:09 AM.

  9. #9
    Senior Member psukkar's Avatar
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    Kishi must show us this fight now.

    Its become very important, too much has stemmed from this fight to leave it in the unknown.

    And its looking like he used Izanagi to survive that fight. And then replaced the eye he lost, he has a treasure chest of eyes. A good question would be when he did he got all thoes eye's, during the Uchiha massacre sounds most probable.
    Last edited by psukkar; 09-17-2010 at 01:15 PM.

  10. #10
    Senior Member psukkar's Avatar
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    Madara statement regarding his purpose of fighting the first hokage at the valley of the end and its implications.

    Madara stated he fought the first hokage to obtain his DNA, I wanted to add this here in this thread because I think there's more going on here as the implications of this statement start making us question Madara and the Rinnegan.

    At want point do you think Madara knew if he took harahima's dna he would be closer to becoming the next So6P?

    Feel free to discuss your viewpoint about this matter, but here's my take on all this.


    We don't know how long after Madara left konoha did the fight with Harashima actually took place. All we know is that Madara left konoha 80+ years ago. I believe he learned about all this after he somehow survived the fight with Harasihma and here's why.

    Judging from what Madara said during the kage summit the tablet left behind by So6p it tells you everything that happened between the Jubbi and the so6p, how the tailed beasts were created and both the Senju and Uchiha are ancestors of the so6p etc.... Which needs the Rinnegan to read the whole tablet to get the whole story.

    So basically this means well at least to me if Madara's statement is correct, Madara acquired the Rinnegan sometime between he left Konoha and the fight with Harasihma to read the tablet and therefore understand if he could take Harashima's DNA and combine it with his own Uchiha DNA he would be the next so6p(And must survive by the way).

    In my opinion Madara was simply an avenger during that time of this life and just wanted kill Harashima for dethroning him, even from his own clan. Madara knew Harashima was very strong from their past engagements and Harasihma's reputation from the rest of the shinobi world and more less even, judging by how Madara depicted the times of constant battle before the village system started. But what really confuses me about this if Madara just want the DNA and didn't care if he was defeated why would he bring the fox into this battle? This another reason why I highly doubt Madara's intentions of this fight of only being the DNA. I believe Madara thought he could get the upper hand on him by bringing in the fox into the battle which he knew he could do because of what he could read from the tablet with his MS/EMS and hoped that he could kill Harasihma.

    But he lost, which further makes me believe Madara didn't know Harashima could suppress the bujj and therefore the senju and the uchiha were ancestors of the so6p. He lost and SOMEHOW SURVIVED and simply got lucky he found some remains of Harashima on the epic battlefield and sometime later via SOMEHOW getting his hands on the Rinnegan formulated a plan over the next 80 years to be ruler of the world with the Rinnegan and Harashima's DNA. Which looks like now he is well on his way in doing, only the Juubi is left for him to revive.

    That's how I see things at the moment, and the reason why is I don't believe madara's words to konan completely word for word. Because the connection with madara and the rinnegan is a COMPLETE MYSTERY. Originally the Muzikage at the kage summit speculated madara got nagato to read the tablet but this too is now challenged. We don't know what happened and that's FACT. Either way you look at it, someone is lying about what happened in the past. At the moment I believe madara isn't being truthful, which by the way this isn't the first time eg..forth hokage fight and what he told Sasuke of what happened in that fight.
    The Master's Legacy



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