Kabuto's Mystery coffin

[Rokudaime Sennin ™]

Sasuke wants to destroy Naruto, because Naruto represents not only all that was historically opposed to the Uchiha, but also the conflict within Sasuke himself. He's always seen a strength in Naruto that he can't match or comprehend, throughout their battles with Orochimaru, Gaara, and Akatsuki. He needs to prove that his way of gaining strength, and his ideology, are stronger than Naruto's.

Now, neither of them may give a damn about the history of the Rikudou's heirs, but Madara does, and he lives for that legend. He's enacting his revenge against his own history of defeats vicariously through Sasuke, and sees in Naruto the perfect representation of all he admired and hated about Hashirama. For that reason, he's attempting to indoctrinate Sasuke fully into his own twisted ideals.

Unfortunately, there's always been a part of Sasuke that was nobler, braver, and more compassionate than Madara ever was, even if Sasuke and the rest of the world have tried their best to take that from him. However, Naruto's always been the one that reminded Sasuke of that, as seen from the start when Sasuke sacrificed himself (and thus his revenge) to save Naruto from Haku. And Madara cannot comprehend that part of Sasuke or Naruto, and can't predict or control it. It's the reason his plans with Nagato were foiled, and why, even now, his control over Sasuke has diminished. Perhaps that's the real reason Madara wants Naruto (and the Senju, etc) to be so completely erased: he's afraid of the Will of Fire.

Now, given how personal this has all been for Madara, it'd be somewhat surprising if Tobi ended up actually being Izuna. We don't know enough about Izuna's backstory, even if he seems likely to share his brother's hate for the Senju and lust for power. He's certainly put a lot of effort into proving that he's Madara for a guy who still wears a mask, but we've never seen any definitive proof.



One does have to wonder, though, why he gripped his arm like that when he explained the "truth" about his brother. It could be that he was lying about the voluntary offering of the eyes. It could be anger towards the death of his brother. It could even be that, in actuality, he IS Izuna, and the memory from his perspective was particularly hard, even for him, to lie about. The details of Izuna's life (and death) are shady at best.

It would add even more depth to the similarities between Tobi and Sasuke if Tobi were, in actuality, Izuna. Imagine, both worshipping their elder brothers, but taking opposite paths: Madara steals Izuna's eyes in lust for power, and pretends that he's protecting his clan from the Senju, while Itachi raises Sasuke to one day take his eyes, destroying his clan to protect the Senju. While Madara gladly sacrifices his brother, Itachi never brings himself to sacrifice his. Sasuke lives his life denying Itachi's sacrifice, and in the end is forced to accept it, while choosing a different path. Izuna chooses instead to tell the lie his brother told, and to finish the job Madara started. In the end, both are fighting to avenge their brothers, no matter the rationale.

It can't be stressed enough the relationship between both sets of Mangekyou brothers. We know all about Madara, Itachi, and Sasuke... but we still know very little about Izuna. Tobi manipulates Sasuke by using the essence of his brotherly love and life of betrayal/illusions against him, but he'll gladly tell more about the Rikudou and his heirs than he will his own flesh and blood, his own eyes. Very suspicious!

Oh, and the eye behind the mask is the same eye we saw Madara take first from Izuna in the flashback. Just putting that out there, even if theories about the mask / eye are years old and somewhat tiresome after Danzou's introduction and death have come and gone.

Again, the Uchiha are a clan shrouded in illusions. Tobi mastered the Uchiha run-no-jutsu far better than Itachi, via his teleport; he's also concealed all truths about him more effectively, thanks to his handy mask.

It's never too late for him to be Obito! Even after he dies at the end of the manga, we can still say, "I bet that was really Obito... rat bastard carried his secrets to the grave..."

whoa. buddy, you just fuckin wowed the hell outta me. that post was such a beautiful read. now I got two monster posts to respond to, LOL.

[Afro Thunda]

Sure is essays in here......

I need to take my time and read through some of these. Could be in need of some theory busting in here.

[Immortal-JyNxX]

Well I would like to point out that after the Sasuke/Danzo fight and before Naruto popped up, I said I'm starting to think Tobi was in fact Izuna. His obsession with stealing eyes doesn't sit right for someone with the EMS. It does sit right for someone who A) got his eyes taken and B) needs a way to achieve EMS without a pair of eyes from a sibling..

But of course everyone called bullshit on me. And now its making a lot more sense to everyone..

[Aga bomBa]

@ RLinfamous

Spoiler!

Sasuke wants to destroy Naruto, because Naruto represents not only all that was historically opposed to the Uchiha, but also the conflict within Sasuke himself. He's always seen a strength in Naruto that he can't match or comprehend, throughout their battles with Orochimaru, Gaara, and Akatsuki. He needs to prove that his way of gaining strength, and his ideology, are stronger than Naruto's.

Now, neither of them may give a damn about the history of the Rikudou's heirs, but Madara does, and he lives for that legend. He's enacting his revenge against his own history of defeats vicariously through Sasuke, and sees in Naruto the perfect representation of all he admired and hated about Hashirama. For that reason, he's attempting to indoctrinate Sasuke fully into his own twisted ideals.

Unfortunately, there's always been a part of Sasuke that was nobler, braver, and more compassionate than Madara ever was, even if Sasuke and the rest of the world have tried their best to take that from him. However, Naruto's always been the one that reminded Sasuke of that, as seen from the start when Sasuke sacrificed himself (and thus his revenge) to save Naruto from Haku. And Madara cannot comprehend that part of Sasuke or Naruto, and can't predict or control it. It's the reason his plans with Nagato were foiled, and why, even now, his control over Sasuke has diminished. Perhaps that's the real reason Madara wants Naruto (and the Senju, etc) to be so completely erased: he's afraid of the Will of Fire.

Now, given how personal this has all been for Madara, it'd be somewhat surprising if Tobi ended up actually being Izuna. We don't know enough about Izuna's backstory, even if he seems likely to share his brother's hate for the Senju and lust for power. He's certainly put a lot of effort into proving that he's Madara for a guy who still wears a mask, but we've never seen any definitive proof.



One does have to wonder, though, why he gripped his arm like that when he explained the "truth" about his brother. It could be that he was lying about the voluntary offering of the eyes. It could be anger towards the death of his brother. It could even be that, in actuality, he IS Izuna, and the memory from his perspective was particularly hard, even for him, to lie about. The details of Izuna's life (and death) are shady at best.

It would add even more depth to the similarities between Tobi and Sasuke if Tobi were, in actuality, Izuna. Imagine, both worshipping their elder brothers, but taking opposite paths: Madara steals Izuna's eyes in lust for power, and pretends that he's protecting his clan from the Senju, while Itachi raises Sasuke to one day take his eyes, destroying his clan to protect the Senju. While Madara gladly sacrifices his brother, Itachi never brings himself to sacrifice his. Sasuke lives his life denying Itachi's sacrifice, and in the end is forced to accept it, while choosing a different path. Izuna chooses instead to tell the lie his brother told, and to finish the job Madara started. In the end, both are fighting to avenge their brothers, no matter the rationale.

It can't be stressed enough the relationship between both sets of Mangekyou brothers. We know all about Madara, Itachi, and Sasuke... but we still know very little about Izuna. Tobi manipulates Sasuke by using the essence of his brotherly love and life of betrayal/illusions against him, but he'll gladly tell more about the Rikudou and his heirs than he will his own flesh and blood, his own eyes. Very suspicious!

Oh, and the eye behind the mask is the same eye we saw Madara take first from Izuna in the flashback. Just putting that out there, even if theories about the mask / eye are years old and somewhat tiresome after Danzou's introduction and death have come and gone.

Again, the Uchiha are a clan shrouded in illusions. Tobi mastered the Uchiha run-no-jutsu far better than Itachi, via his teleport; he's also concealed all truths about him more effectively, thanks to his handy mask.

It's never too late for him to be Obito! Even after he dies at the end of the manga, we can still say, "I bet that was really Obito... rat bastard carried his secrets to the grave..."

.. nice read indeed. grabbing his arm could also be from Izuna's perspective; painfull thought about his own sacrifice, that was for nothing ( I'm saying this if Tobi is Izuna )

But I agree with you and Rokudaime Sennin, that it the only possibility for him not being Madara, would be Izuna. As I've stated in my post earlier, I wouldn't like it all if Tobi isn't Madara or Izuna.

You can call me crazy when I say that; the way how Tobi grabbed his right arm strongly like that, is IMO because he truelly loved his brother and he's still agry about the fact that his brother sacrifice was for nothing. That was the cherry on top off everything what made him already angry. His own clansmen choosing the enemy as their leader + his brothers sacrifice, boiled up his hatred further.. ( the thing that makes the Uchiha stronger is Pure Hatred ). IF he isn't Madara, then way showing this emotions? The reason why he manipulted so easily, was because he knew that telling the truth about his brother, would made him angrier then ever, and that was he needed.




B: OR Itachi really found him the woods all by himself, what made him to be more caution about Itachi. Also the reason why Tobi couldn't do any shit while Itachi was alive, is more proof that he couldn't fool him at ALL. Tobi even said that; even in death, he never ceases to amaze me. Itachi and Nagato were the only two people who knew who he was. ( I belive that Zetzu knows him from the start, but lots of people don't belive that ). The reason why Nagato knew who he was, because Madara needed brute force in his clan and probably the Rinnegan, and the fact why Itachi got to know him, is what I've explained in point A and B. Itachi was a high level shinobi that he couldn't play with, especially not his mind. Itachi's intelligence and overall skills made him to be an obstacle for Madara and Itachi's illness was the reason why Madara got to go further with his plan.

Secondly.. the beauty for tobi being Madara, is because Madara is the CORE of Hatred, the genius of all the uchiha's from the beginning. The hatred that the current generations are living with, started to envolve the moment when nobody stood behind Madara Uchiha. Madara and Hashirama are both te instigator of the shinobi world. Recently we heared about the two sons, elder and younger,.. but in the beginning of the manga, Madara and Hashirama were the ones who brought Peace and hatred.

It wouldn't make any sense if it wasn't the real evil M..fcker who wanted to mess up the shinobi world 65 years ago. The beauty for Tobi being Madara, is what makes him to be the most epic villain in the end. So far, beside of Oro, we didn't have a villain thats PURE EVIL, PURE HATRED and a villain that had / has huge influences on the shinobi world for so many years. Someone who started the circle of hatred ( not counting elder son ) and that someone being alive, who corrupted the world and innocent people, has to be stopped by a pure hearted shinobi after 65 years.

- Izuna, well.. my first thought was that it could be his little brother. But then again; why would he be afraid of his little brother? make no sense.. so If I have to think like you do, that means that the current Tobi isn't Madara at all. And the reason he got shocked like that, was because Kabuto summoned the REAL MADARA and when people would know that, then the POWER OF TOBI what everybody is afraid off, would be gone, perish. His authority would be fcked.

- Tobi is Izuna, Madara's little brother and the reason why he got shocked like that, was because Kabuto summoned the real Madara. Again; I first thought was that it has to be Izuna, but then I read in DB 3 that Izuna died in battle and it has never been stated that Madara is dead, only that his body hasn't been FOUND. But still: a big change that it could be Izuna and that he's playing in the name of his brother out of respect.

- IN onemanga.com translations, Madara said: You bastard,.. WHERE DID you get that? what does he mean with this? Where did you get my original body ( speaking like he's madara himself ) or in Izuna's case; where did you get my brothers body... Kabuto said: It's complicated ( Kabuto mastered Edo Tensei better then the previous users, meaning that he could probably summon a soul from a death god and maybe even the original body instead of using sacrificial bodies. )


okey, for finishing this up:

I would hate the fact that tobi wouldn't be Madara. I answered above why I would think that,.. and if Tobi isn't Madara at all, then the only peron that I would appreciate would be Izuna, his little brother.

I will correct myself for saying that it's the original body of madara inside that coffin, but if Tobi isn't Madara or Izuna, then I would be very dissappointed.

[paulbee]

I don't get it.

Why can't Madara (Tobi) simply be Madara?

Why do we need to define him as someone else, whether it's Obito or Izunna? Is there anything in the Managa or Narutoverse that precludes him being who he claims to be?

The 3 people who should know his identity (Zetsu, Kisame, Nagato) all acknowledge him to be Madara. Add itachi and Origami Woman.

[Aga bomBa]

I don't get it.

Why can't Madara (Tobi) simply be Madara?

Why do we need to define him as someone else, whether it's Obito or Izunna? Is there anything in the Managa or Narutoverse that precludes him being who he claims to be?

The 3 people who should know his identity (Zetsu, Kisame, Nagato) all acknowledge him to be Madara. Add itachi and Origami Woman.

.. I know. I love how kishi makes those twists, but in this case; I would love to see Tobi as Madara himself. An example of a villain thats pure evil with only hatred inside of his heart. I want to see an end villain thats pure hatred with global destruction in his mind.

Plus I would love the fact that Madara is ALIVE and how he infected the shinobi world for soo many years with hate. But yea; like I said, if he isn't Madara, then let him be Izuna, nobody else.

[Immortal-JyNxX]

I don't get it.

Why can't Madara (Tobi) simply be Madara?

Why do we need to define him as someone else, whether it's Obito or Izunna? Is there anything in the Managa or Narutoverse that precludes him being who he claims to be?

The 3 people who should know his identity (Zetsu, Kisame, Nagato) all acknowledge him to be Madara. Add itachi and Origami Woman.

Zetsu, Kisame & Itachi wouldn't know any better. Until Kabuto calls him Madara I'm 100% sure he's not in fact Madara and the real Madara was in that coffin.

[paulbee]

Zetsu, Kisame & Itachi wouldn't know any better. Until Kabuto calls him Madara I'm 100% sure he's not in fact Madara and the real Madara was in that coffin.

I really haven't seen any evidence against him being Madara.

True he is a self serving villain, but ...if we're going to say 100% sure he's not Madara, there should at least be some evidence for it?

[Trigunflame]

Zetsu, Kisame & Itachi wouldn't know any better. Until Kabuto calls him Madara I'm 100% sure he's not in fact Madara and the real Madara was in that coffin.

I'm 100% sure that it's impossible for you, me or anyone else to be 100% sure about who or what he may be.

[Hand Banana]

Zetsu, Kisame & Itachi wouldn't know any better. Until Kabuto calls him Madara I'm 100% sure he's not in fact Madara and the real Madara was in that coffin.