View Poll Results: Naruto Chapter Rating Scale

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  • It's story time!! Of the OMG-OMG-OMG variety!!

    7 50.00%
  • Positively Remarkable!!

    3 21.43%
  • A Fair balance

    3 21.43%
  • Well...I don't quite know about this...

    0 0%
  • So this is the beginning...yea........... -_-

    1 7.14%
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  1. #61
    Senior Member
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    Aug 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post

    the Juubi came from the Shinzu, but it is not the Shinzu. The Shinzu tree and Juubi can exist independently of one another, and the Juubi can be split while this happens. If you look at the chapters where Madara reclaimed the Juubi, and reformed it from the Geddou, you will see the Sinzu clearly in the background.
    I think that is just a husk, it doesn't have any power, it doesn't have any spirit. The God Tree is the Juubi, without the chakra of the Bijuu, the tree is lifeless and powerless. Notice that since Obito lost the Bijuu the God Tree has been inactive it can't do anything, its just a big piece of wood.

    Madara was able to create a giant lotus that is far bigger than any Bijuu but that doesn't make it a god tree, its just a big plant that grows Zetsu's. Even if Madara grew a plant as big as the God Tree it wouldn't be the God Tree, the Juubi and Bijuu are the God Tree in different forms.

    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    If another Juubi is formed, it will not cheapen the story because, there will be a precedent, and the new Juubi will be sourced from the same being as the old Juubi. It would be like a Kege Bunshin creating another Kage Bunshin. The two may act independently, but on a deeper level they are sourced from the same person.
    I disagree, I don't see any precedent for a second Juubi. A Kage Bushin is a weak, temporary clone, it doesn't have the same power as the original and it is still under acting according the will of the original.

    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    I think a new juubi is neccessay for two reasons, Naruto has to show the Bijuus a new way, a path of cooperation, a path for True power, AND, I believe that the SO6P's prophesy implies that the Bijuus will be inside Naruto (my interpretation only).
    How would creating a second set of Bijuu's teach the current ones a new path? It would make more sense for Naruto to use the current bijuu. By him bonding with them it should be possible for him to take them from Madara. Since Naruto has a connection to all of the Bijuu and they have developed a personal bond with Naruto they will likely try to help Naruto. Madara is controlling the Bijuu by force, but as we have seen the best way to use a Bijuu is when it is cooperating with its host. As we already saw with Obito, when he was weakened he began to loose control of the Bijuu and Naruto was able to break them free. Now that Naruto has a chakra connection to all of the Bijuu he should be able to to it again but with even more efficiency than before. Also, Naruto should now have the entire Sage's bloodline, since he should be able to get Uchiha and Senju cells from Obito. With all of those things together he should have a much better chance of getting the bijuu back.

    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    While all this is going on, the Good guys need to have some solid power behind their backs in order for them to team-work against Madara. Sasuke's Rinnegan and Naruto's Nascent Juubi will cooperate together to defeat Madara, and That power inside Naruto will be needed to defeat Sasuke later, and show him that cooperation (from Sakura, from Obito, from the Bijuus on their own volition) is superior to raw power alone.
    Madara is clearly more powerful but Naruto and Sasuke have a few advantages. They are both about to get the full bloodline of the Sage, a bloodline that even Madara doesn't seem to have. I suspect that completing that bloodline will awaken powers in both of them that Madara himself doesn't have. Orochimaru said himself that all the research of his life has led him to believe that Sasuke can surpass Madara. Madara is missing a part of the equation, the very fact that he needed Kabuto to implant Hashirama's face onto him to master the Mokuton is proof of that. Sasuke will likely gain powers that Madara couldn't because he is not only getting Hashirama's cells he also got chakra directly from Hashirama. Kabuto also used knowledge from Tobirama to help heal Sasuke, that knowledge will probably improve the bond between his bloodlines even more.

    Another advantage that Naruto and Sasuke have ia that they both have more experience with Natural energy. Naruto in particular because he is a trained Sage. Madara's powers are largely stolen and copied, most of his powers aren't earned through hard work and experience the way Naruto and Sasuke's are. Madara may have far more abilities, battle experience, and power but Naruto and Sasuke had to get most of their powers the hard way and as a result they understand them in ways that Madara doesn't. Another major advantage that they have is teamwork. Madara is a beast of a man but he is still just one person he can't coordinate attacks in the way that Naruto and Sasuke can. We already saw how Naruto and Sasuke were able to coordinate their attacks and combined their abilities to create new ones of extreme power. Now that Naruto and Sasuke have had the experience of fighting against Obito and they have greater power than ever before they should be able to create techniques far more powerful than they could previously. If Naruto and Sasuke both complete their bloodlines Madara's advantage will be reduced dramatically. He will still have more battle experience and more jutsu but his only major advantage at that point will be the Juubi. Since Naruto has a personal and chakra connection to the Bijuu though, I suspect they will start to resist Madara's control. If Naruto can free the Bijuu, Madara will lose his advantage.

    Even though most of the characters have been beaten down and can't fight in a meaningful way, like they did against Obito. They are still their to offer guidance and possible create openings for Naruto and Sasuke. All of the Kages are still alive and Orochimaru and his team are still there to help Sasuke + get the Zetsu's out of the picture and perhaps learn some secrets about Madara in the process. If Yamato is the one inside Spiral Zetsu, the allies might be able to free him and he might be able to take control of the Senju statue. There are still many options for ways that the allies can help create openings for Naruto and Sasuke.

    Last but certainly not least, Naruto now has some kind of connection to Hagoromo, we still don't know what the extent of that connection is but that could help him in many ways. By learning the truth from Hagoromo himself Naruto finally knows things that even Madara hasn't learned. Naruto could use that knowledge to affect Madara. Naruto knows things about the Bijuu, Hagoromo's Sons, Hagoromo, the God Tree and the history of the world that Madara is missing. All of that information will probably be very important. As we have seen in many battles knowledge can be just as valuable as power, sometimes even more. As we saw with Itachi and Kabuto, Kabuto had designed his skill set to be perfect for defeating Itachi but he still lost in the end because Itachi was smarter and understood things that Kabuto didn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    I believe that in order to end this war of the "Brothers", Indra's Spirit has to be convinced that "Love" is the more potent force to ensures peace (into the future), and in this case, Love will also be the Key to the power that ensures peace while being the glue that prevents more wars.
    Yes, but I don't see what that has to do with Bijuu babies. Making a second Juubi would just be equaling the raw power between Naruto and Madara, it wouldn't show the value of love and cooperation. We have already seen the power of cooperation in how Naruto was able to overcome Obito with the help of all his friends and also because of his personal bond and empathy with the Bijuu themselves. Now he is learning about the past from Hagoromo himself and he has also received a connection to his past incarnation, probably in part because Hagoromo sees that Naruto is motivated by love. Madara believes in controlling the Bijuu by force while Naruto believes in gaining their help through love and cooperation. Madara doesn't have anyone who is trying to help him but himself and his single minded Zetsu's who just do as they are told. Naruto has many people giving him advice looking for ways to help him, to make him stronger. I suspect that is why he will win. I don't think it will be because he gets a Juubi of his own that makes him just as powerful as Madara. He will win because the Bijuu will rebel against Madara and try to lend their power to Naruto and all of Naruto's friends will do whatever it takes to keep him alive and help him be victorious. He will win through his cooperation with the Bijuu, with Sasuke, with his friends, his former enemies and Hagoromo.

  2. #62
    Senior Member MOTS's Avatar
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    Jul 2008
    Quote Originally Posted by zeroLT View Post
    The idea of reincarnation is being interjected into the series via the Sage. That there Chakra/Soul (I believe they are interconnected then we know currently but that is just assumption) became so powerful and there personal conflict so great, it never went away. That even now they are fighting each other for control.

    The sage says, "... anyway... everything seems in order... the time is right."

    "I am a priest who now exists as pure chakra and I have traveled this world across time to witness what has and will become of ninshuu"

    The sage exists now as pure chakra, since he has witnessed was has become of Ninshuu (Meaning he has traveled and witnessed the events that has occurred and will occur) he has come to Naruto, at the tipping point, a nexus of events if you will. That culminates in Ashura and Indra yet again fighting again via there reincarnations ultimately leading to there deaths.

    Naruto and Sasuke fulfilling there roles respectively, As Ashura and Indra continuing their fight of ideology and perspective.

    I believe the sage wants to stop the cycle of reincarnation and put his sons to rest. Knowing fully that, if he doesn't step in and attempt to stop them from fighting again, that eventually the world will be destroyed by the fight that Naruto and Sasuke have or that it will just continually lead to Ninja war after ninja war to after ninja world to the point that everything is dead.

    But he couldnt do it at an early point because he perceived that it wasn't the correct time, that the event that would occur had he stepped in too early or too late, would have led to an unfavorable outcome for the world and ninshuu.

    Hagoromo picked Naruto over Sasuke because he know that Ashura, even after all those incarnations, still loves his brother and wants to redeem him. Sasuke, still isnt convinced of anything, convinced his own path for the future is the only one.

    Naruto in these past chapters has been around connected with everyone via chakra

    Similar to how Ashura did it in the past.

    I guess what I am getting at is that, I believe in the next chapter, Hagoromo will attempt to either talk to Ashura/Naruto telling them that they can stop Sasuke/Indra and end there cycle together. And (probably) not have to kill each other and attempt the cycle again.

    Holy crap, I wasnt expecting to write all of this.... I just sort of let it flow out.
    Zero, I love this dude. This is a awesome piece you wrote and everything ties in together great. I always wondered what Naruto meant when he said they both will die if they were to fight again. The way you explained Ashura and Indra in this incident is spot on. We all know that Naruto ans Sasuke has always had a deep bond, but after reading the last chapter and your post, to me it felt like Ashura was telling Indra they both will die if they fight again more than Naruto telling Sasuke. What if the brothers chakra that is present within Naruto and Sasuke comes forth in certain instances without Naruto or Sasuke knowing?

  3. #63
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    Jul 2007
    Fargo, North Dakota USA

    I took a little time to consider your words.

    The Juubi and the Shinzu are indeed the same being in different forms, but I don't think we can simply say that and then leave it like that. To my thinking, The Shinzu is not just a Husk, anymore than The Geddou was a Husk. The Juubi emerged from the Shinzuu, and the Bijuus emerged from the Geddou, but even if the Geddou just sat there like a Statue, it still had its own life force, and was useable as a weapon. In the same way, I believe the Shizu to be alive, but lacking purpose or motivation, it does nothing, well it does absorb away chakra from ninjas, even without the Juubi inside it.

    Consider this: What was the fruit? If it hadn't been eaten, would it have eventually become another tree or another Juubi or entity? Since it is a fruit it is likely to bear the potential of another tree, in which case we would have had 2 God Trees.

    The Precedent for a second Juubi was implied by the SO6P when he and his brother sealed it up in their bodies, when they did that, we had 2 Juubis potentially. I am thinking in terms of animals like an earthworm that you can divide into two, and each part becomes a complete worm. Or with plants, you can cut off a twig on some plants, and grow a whole new tree.

    My feeling is that Had there been another Geddou Mazou, we could already have Two Juubis. All you need to make a Juubi is part of the Jakras from the nine Bijuus, and a Geddou Mazou. There is nothng to contradict this in the Manga, in fact the Manga practically says so.

    The knowledge and experience gained by the parts will then later be absorbed by the whole when Madara is defeated.

    I can see how Sasuke may get the full bloodline, through Kabuto, but I can't see it in Naruto. What I do see for Naruto is that He now could posses all nin Bijuu Chakras, plus a part of the Geddou. I doubt Naruto would accept the Rinnegan from Obiuto, and he probably wouldn't use it well anyway. I also don't think that there is enough time left over for Naruto to take the Bijuus away from Madara, and show them true power. The Opportunity to learn true power would be during the battle with Madara, and not afterward.

    Also, as I read it, Madara already had Hashirama's face on his chest before Kabuto messed with his Edo Tensei form. That's probably why he had it again after the Rinnegan brought him back.

    These are just my intuitive ideas, and perhaps a little wishfulness, but when I try to take everything I've read together as acoherent whole, it seems to me that The SO6P's prophesy goes well with the happenstance of Naruto in range of Chakra from all the Bijuus, plus part of the Geddou Mazou, plus Obito who has the knowledge, plus the SO6P being around, all of it is just too BEGGING for something dramatic. It seems to me that there is something Missing that needs to be done with all these assembled pieces.

    I am not perfect and I defy you to prove otherwise
    Growing Old Gracefully is an Oxymoron ... Mostly Moron !

  4. #64
    Senior Member zeroLT's Avatar
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    Oct 2007
    Green Hills Zone
    Quote Originally Posted by MOTS View Post
    Zero, I love this dude. This is a awesome piece you wrote and everything ties in together great. I always wondered what Naruto meant when he said they both will die if they were to fight again. The way you explained Ashura and Indra in this incident is spot on. We all know that Naruto ans Sasuke has always had a deep bond, but after reading the last chapter and your post, to me it felt like Ashura was telling Indra they both will die if they fight again more than Naruto telling Sasuke. What if the brothers chakra that is present within Naruto and Sasuke comes forth in certain instances without Naruto or Sasuke knowing?
    Well my last post on this didnt post :( so Ill just give you the abridged version. Ashura helped Naruto by helping him survive Kurama's negative chakra(at the time). It was commented that Naruto acted as little more then a skeleton for Kurama's negative chakra. It was Ashura's powerful chakra that helped him live through that. As, it explains why Mito and Kushina Uzumaki couldnt meld with Kurama. Naurto's/Ashura's own Chakra would be similar to hogoromo's chakra based on linage alone. And Since Hogoromo created the tailed beasts, his own chakra probably had a hand in it so that is why Naruto appears like Ashura and Hogoromo in Tailed beast Chakra Mode.

    Indra's influence on Sasuke, is also noted within the series.

    The power of darkness... it was the only reason Sasuke managed to survive the fight at the Kage Summit against the other Kages. It helped him unlock Sussano. Its the only one that stands out to me the most.

    My original post had more evidence... but I just dont have the time right now to rewrite and link everything again... at work XD


  5. #65
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    Jan 2009
    haven't read through all the posts yet but i wanted to share this idea: so, empathy is generally a passive thing. it lets a person "see" and understand another person, but then the knowledge influences compassion and limits the choices. if there were an active version of empathy, maybe it would act as Kushina's chains: acting in accordance with her will without present knowledge while still using the understanding to take advantage. battle-ready empathy. anyway, just a fleeting thought. also, has anyone mentioned (and i know they are just wrinkles) that the SoVIP has similar facial markings to our Orange Spark? also, way into the idea Kaguya may also be the Death God. been a while, hope this is worth something to someone dinner time

  6. #66
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    Jan 2009
    thought on the Geddou/Juubi/Shinzu relationship: since they are all the same being in different forms, i think of the Geddou as some dormant form the shinzu/juubi takes after having both lost the fruit AND had its chakra removed. sort of like when trees "die" over the winter. does everyone else carry that same idea? if so, sorry!

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