View Poll Results: Naruto Chapter Rating Scale

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  • I...I love you Kishi

    5 41.67%
  • Pretty Nice

    4 33.33%
  • A fair chapter

    0 0%
  • Not too impressed

    1 8.33%
  • Kishi...Why you do dis?? >:(

    2 16.67%
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  1. #51
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    The next Naruto should be fun, and the one after that even more fun. Madra is headed toward Obito, Gaara, Sakura and Naruto are headed there too. If Madara gets there first, all hope is lost. If Gaara gets there and Madara catches up, all hope is also lost. The Only hope is for Gaara to get there while Kakashi sends them to Obito's dimension before Madara blows them all away.

    If this happens, Minato needs to go with Naruto. Sending Obito too might saboutage Madara a bit. What Will Happen next? Stay Tuned.

    I am not perfect and I defy you to prove otherwise
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  2. #52
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pure Logic View Post
    Hashirama's Death is still a mystery... we know he didn't die of Old Age, could Madara of killed him, or did Hashirama died in a war, after being overwhelmed by enimes which still doesn't make since how strong Hashirama is.... or... what if Hashirama... for the cost of his over use of his powers actually shorten his life span and he died naturally?
    Who knows ? I mean Madara himself died because of old age and yet, as an edo and a living revived person, he is young/in his prime, so it's possible that Hashirama's current form is far from his death one.



  3. #53
    Senior Member janfeae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    Who knows ? I mean Madara himself died because of old age and yet, as an edo and a living revived person, he is young/in his prime, so it's possible that Hashirama's current form is far from his death one.

    From what we have seen, Madara is the only exception, and I believe that that is the only influence Kabuto had on him. Everyone else appears to look the way they did at their time of death.


    Orochimaru summoned the kage's, but I don't think he used anything special other than edo tensei. Looking at the other 3 kage, they all appear in the state they were in before they died, so I'd say it's very safe to assume the same for Hashirama. After all, he was nowhere to be found when Hiruzen was middle-aged.


    I would wager that he died young because of a catastrophe, and I also believe his death is intertwined with the missing Senju clan.

  4. #54
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by janfeae View Post
    From what we have seen, Madara is the only exception, and I believe that that is the only influence Kabuto had on him. Everyone else appears to look the way they did at their time of death.
    Well, if Kabuto really only improved Madara's Hashirama Cells and that's the reason why he looks so young, then wouldn't there be an even bigger effect for the actual Hashirama that is filled with Hashirama Cells and his brother (he should posses some Hashi-a-bit-like-cells seeing as they are closely related) ?

    Basing on what we know, Tobirama was mortally wounded by Kin and Gin (was it when Hiruzen was still young in that flashback ?), though seeing as Hiruzen, while being around Kakashi's age, still was teaching genin as a Jounin, means that Tobirama had survived quite a few or even dozen of years after that flashback in which he chooses Hiruzen as the next Hokage... or it's a plot-hole (unless at that point Hashirama went back to the position of Hokage, in the same way as Hiruzen returned to it after Minato's death). Still, it's hard to imagine that any village would want to wage a war against someone like Hashirama (an unparalleled man that is not only stronger than a Bijuu, but can even subdue them easily).

    It would be pretty cool to see Hiruzen at his prime, though he also was gifted with a special body, one capable of wielding all 5 elements equally, just like those of the So6p and Nagato (probably because of the Rinnegan). Hmmmm, Nagato regained his vitality by sucking a bit of the 8-tails chakra, so if Edo Hiruzen got some of Hashirama's or a Bijuu's chakra, would he also turn young ?

    From the looks of it, Minato Namikaze is seemingly the only Edo Zombie that was resurrected with his power way surpassing his prime when he was alive (thanks to a giant increase in speed/stats and chakra capacity from the Kyubi-half ).



  5. #55
    Senior Member janfeae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    Well, if Kabuto really only improved Madara's Hashirama Cells and that's the reason why he looks so young, then wouldn't there be an even bigger effect for the actual Hashirama that is filled with Hashirama Cells and his brother (he should posses some Hashi-a-bit-like-cells seeing as they are closely related) ?

    Basing on what we know, Tobirama was mortally wounded by Kin and Gin (was it when Hiruzen was still young in that flashback ?), though seeing as Hiruzen, while being around Kakashi's age, still was teaching genin as a Jounin, means that Tobirama had survived quite a few or even dozen of years after that flashback in which he chooses Hiruzen as the next Hokage... or it's a plot-hole (unless at that point Hashirama went back to the position of Hokage, in the same way as Hiruzen returned to it after Minato's death). Still, it's hard to imagine that any village would want to wage a war against someone like Hashirama (an unparalleled man that is not only stronger than a Bijuu, but can even subdue them easily).

    It would be pretty cool to see Hiruzen at his prime, though he also was gifted with a special body, one capable of wielding all 5 elements equally, just like those of the So6p and Nagato (probably because of the Rinnegan). Hmmmm, Nagato regained his vitality by sucking a bit of the 8-tails chakra, so if Edo Hiruzen got some of Hashirama's or a Bijuu's chakra, would he also turn young ?

    From the looks of it, Minato Namikaze is seemingly the only Edo Zombie that was resurrected with his power way surpassing his prime when he was alive (thanks to a giant increase in speed/stats and chakra capacity from the Kyubi-half ).

    hmm..I'm not entirely sure what you mean when speaking of Hashirama's resurrection. They were his cells to begin with, so I don't see how bringing him back would make him any stronger. Everyone who stole form him obtained a lesser form of the original, and thus is why their cells can further improve. Also, as you know, Kabuto had no part in his resurrection because Hiruzen sealed them away when he fought Orochimaru back in the day. We saw with our own two eyes that Orochimaru made no such modifications to any of the Kage's bodies when they were resurrected. I fact, he tried to take power away.

    In the flashback showing Tobirama on his final mission, moments before his death, we see that he was still fairly young. http://www.mangapanda.com/93-46747-4...apter-481.html


    To help with the timeline, you need only observe Hiruzen's death, and how old Tsunade was at the time. Hashirmama was only seen with her as a very young girl. When Hiruzen died, Tsunade was exactly 50 years old, making hiruzen about 80 at absolute max. For many years Hiruzen was the only living hokage, and when he gave it over to Minato, he looked to be somewhere in his late 50's/early 60's. Minato quickly died, and Hiruzen took over once more for about 13 years more (From the first attack on the village, to the second in the chunin exams arc/ Naruto's age). There's also part 1. Orochimaru could only use an incomplete form of edo tensei, and he certainly didn't make any modifications to help them. And as you remember, Hashirama was brought back in the way he appeared in the Vally of the End. They were several times weaker back then, compared to how strong they actually were alive. They also commented on how old Saru had grown, because they didn't live to see that long, while Sarutobi lived a full life.


    Minato is also a special case. As you also know, he obtained a powerup because of something he achieved moments before his death. If he didn't die right then and there, his technique would not have appeared to be new (Supposedly. I mean it did take Naruto some time to get strong enough, but Minato took on the full thing, and was strong enough to be named Hokage at the time, so it's reasonable I suppose lol). So neither Orochimaru or Kabuto had any influence on Hashirama and his current state.



    From everything we saw, that holds true for every single ninja that was summoned by edo tensei, except for Madara himself. I don't know how he did it, but he definitely told Madara he was revived in the form he took in his prime. Before 40 or so chapters later when we learned of an Old Madara, we just assumed it was a Mokuton boost because we believed he died at the Valley of the End, which also depicts a young Madara. So we had no reason to think it was his age that had been tampered with. Now that we know more, I believe when Madara checked his body, he was checking to see if he was revived with his younger, superior body.



    So with all these things, we can surmise that Hashirama truly was brought back in the same state he was in moments before his death, and that this death had to be something amazing: Something even beyond the ability of Madara Uchiha..unless he was somhow involved, which is fairly likely. It would be strange of Madara not to have mentioned it thus far if that is the case however.

  6. #56
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    Huh ? What ? No, what I meant was that if upgrading H-cells on Madara made him young as a Zombie, then the same should be for Hashirama who is fully made of top-class Hashirama cells from the start (even without modifications) . In other words, just like with Edodara, basing on Hashirama's zombie state we can't deduce how he was or when he died. The same thing could be for Tobirama who is closely related to Hashirama, so even if not possessing such levels of vitality, he still has way above normal ones. I'm not sure what you mean by power upping, when it was reveaked that he wasn't at full power (it was Kabuto's mistake). The part that Kabuto upgraded didn't supplement the parts that were downgraded because of the Zombifications (so overall the Zombie Madara was actually weaker than the living EMS Madara, not much probably). That's why when Madara was revived, even while eyeless, thanks to the upgrade in Hashirama cells, it was mentioned that only now he is at full power. Here is the page in which Madara states that he can finally fight at full power:
    Spoiler!


    It never said that Tobirama died, only that in case he doesn't return, Hiruzen will be the 3rd Hokage, but seeing as many years later Hiruzen was a Jounin for a Genin team (of Oro, Tsunade and Jiraya) instead of a Hokage, means that Hiruzen became the Hokage after he trained Oro, Tsunade and Jiraya, which would suggest that Tobirama survived that mission and was doing his duty as Hokage up to that point (at least there is no mention of someone else taking the spot or it being empty for years). Of course, this could be all a plot-hole, since Kishi changed a lot of things from part 1 and even part 2 .

    The "time-line" is certainly butchered and broken. Even if we exclude everything that was in the Databooks, it's still pretty bad. Kishi simply sucks at time-lines, he made it in too small a scale, which didn't allow for mistakes and many thing are overlapping or contradicting that shouldn't be otherwise possible to happen.

    In reality, Minato shouldn't have the time to work on taking down the Kyubi and stealing it's chakra from it, heck he should be pretty much inhibited by it, just like he was right before his death. Kishi simply brushed it off, it happened off-screen somehow, somewhere, in another dimension perhaps. It's a bit off, but it doesn't break the story too much, though leaving it at that does stretch it a bit .

    If having High-class H-cells gives youth to a Zombie and revived person, then so should be for one that has tons of it from the start without altering, thus for Hashirama as well. In other words, if Madara's state is different from the state of death because of upgraded H-cells, so should be for one that has even more of them. Besides, it seems more likely that they are revived basing on the blood/DNA sample, but since Kabuto got most of the ninja's DNA from their dead bodies, their state is that from right before their death (basically the reason for some of the Zombie's youthfulness is not because of H-cells, but because their DNA samples are from when they were young).



  7. #57
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    I think Kabuto just Tampered with Madara's age upon revival, plus recalling that at that age he did not posses Hashirama cells, or they weren't active, all Kabuto was saying was that he made him better than at his prime, that means with Hashirama cells activated.

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  8. #58
    [̲̅ə̲̅٨̲̅٥̲̅٦̲̅] guy's Avatar
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    its probably the power the first gave saskue.. i think its saskue's wood clone

    A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.

  9. #59
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    I think Kabuto just Tampered with Madara's age upon revival, plus recalling that at that age he did not posses Hashirama cells, or they weren't active, all Kabuto was saying was that he made him better than at his prime, that means with Hashirama cells activated.
    We don't know that. It's possible that Kabuto got Madara's DNA right after he implanted the H-cells into himself, or he specifically used a younger version of Madara's DNA and had created his new H-cell from zero (seeing as Edodara was revived with the Sharingan and seemingly was slowly proceeding to the Rinnegan could also suggest that). We have to remember that if Kabuto could have easily altered the age, he would probably do that with half of his Zombies, or if Oro could do it, so it is quite likely possible that Kabuto had nothing to do with Madara's or any other Zombie's age. It also seems that Kabuto wasn't able to give every Zombie the H-cells (if he could he would probably do it), so it's possible that what Kabuto did was not add more or new, but rather alter the currently existing one into a better, more effective form. If that is the case, Sasuke having Juugo's cells implanted in the same spot that Madara had Hashirama's and also having Hashirama chakra, plus seemingly Kabuto closing on him, could give Sasuke a new boost. In a way, we still haven't seen a superior Senjutsu Doujutsu (so far the only known Senjutsu Doujutsu merely allowed to see Natural Energy with the naked eye, so they were rather minor in their power) and this could have been a nice twist.

    We still don't know what are the exact limitations of Edo Tensei. Is it downgrading every Zombie, or is it limiting their power based on how much limited is the user's own ability ? For example we clearly know that Madara, Hashirama and Tobirama were degraded, even though in both cases the caster seemingly had every intention of reviving them with full power, yet they weren't (though seemingly Kabuto was able to upgrade some of his other stats). Is it similar for every other Zombie, or were other Zombie summoned at full power because their power levels weren't even close those those 3 (even though Tobirama seemed to be close to his full power, basing on what Madara said that missing bit, might have turned the scales in their favor, perhaps Tobirama was missing more of his power than he originally thought) ?



  10. #60
    Senior Member janfeae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    Huh ? What ? No, what I meant was that if upgrading H-cells on Madara made him young as a Zombie, then the same should be for Hashirama who is fully made of top-class Hashirama cells from the start (even without modifications) . In other words, just like with Edodara, basing on Hashirama's zombie state we can't deduce how he was or when he died. The same thing could be for Tobirama who is closely related to Hashirama, so even if not possessing such levels of vitality, he still has way above normal ones. I'm not sure what you mean by power upping, when it was reveaked that he wasn't at full power (it was Kabuto's mistake). The part that Kabuto upgraded didn't supplement the parts that were downgraded because of the Zombifications (so overall the Zombie Madara was actually weaker than the living EMS Madara, not much probably). That's why when Madara was revived, even while eyeless, thanks to the upgrade in Hashirama cells, it was mentioned that only now he is at full power. Here is the page in which Madara states that he can finally fight at full power:
    Spoiler!


    It never said that Tobirama died, only that in case he doesn't return, Hiruzen will be the 3rd Hokage, but seeing as many years later Hiruzen was a Jounin for a Genin team (of Oro, Tsunade and Jiraya) instead of a Hokage, means that Hiruzen became the Hokage after he trained Oro, Tsunade and Jiraya, which would suggest that Tobirama survived that mission and was doing his duty as Hokage up to that point (at least there is no mention of someone else taking the spot or it being empty for years). Of course, this could be all a plot-hole, since Kishi changed a lot of things from part 1 and even part 2 .

    The "time-line" is certainly butchered and broken. Even if we exclude everything that was in the Databooks, it's still pretty bad. Kishi simply sucks at time-lines, he made it in too small a scale, which didn't allow for mistakes and many thing are overlapping or contradicting that shouldn't be otherwise possible to happen.

    In reality, Minato shouldn't have the time to work on taking down the Kyubi and stealing it's chakra from it, heck he should be pretty much inhibited by it, just like he was right before his death. Kishi simply brushed it off, it happened off-screen somehow, somewhere, in another dimension perhaps. It's a bit off, but it doesn't break the story too much, though leaving it at that does stretch it a bit .

    If having High-class H-cells gives youth to a Zombie and revived person, then so should be for one that has tons of it from the start without altering, thus for Hashirama as well. In other words, if Madara's state is different from the state of death because of upgraded H-cells, so should be for one that has even more of them. Besides, it seems more likely that they are revived basing on the blood/DNA sample, but since Kabuto got most of the ninja's DNA from their dead bodies, their state is that from right before their death (basically the reason for some of the Zombie's youthfulness is not because of H-cells, but because their DNA samples are from when they were young).

    It appears I did understand you the first time, but you didn't fully understand me lol Your theory is based on the assumption that Kabuto used Hashirama's cells to make Madara appear younger. This is quite likely the case, and is something I also assumed. The thing is, we don't actually know how Kabuto achieved this, and that either way, he is still using Hashirama's cells to begin with. Being reborn with your own cells, is the same as just being reborn. Theoretically, if such a thing could happen, when you come back from the dead, there should be no key differences on the inside or outside of your body, other than the obvious skin flaws, and black eyes in this case. If you were reborn with someone else's cells, then perhaps there will be some changes. In this fictional universe, we know that giving Hashirama's cells to anyone other than Hashirama himself causes dramatic changes. Hashirama stands nothing to gain from being reborn with his own cells.

    I don't like going too in depth, because when you do, you go beyond the author's intentions, but from what I see in real life, currently there is no way to tell someone's age based on their DNA alone. So I don't think having DNA from 20 years ago would make them any older or younger. It is the condition of their soul that determines their state, and the human sacrifice's body then reflects that of the rejuvenated spirit.


    You sure are right about some points of the timeline my friend, and I did state that all of them were in fact weaker and not stronger, but I think it was intentional that we never saw an older Hashirama in the village at any point during a flashback. It was also heavily implied that the decoy on Tobirama's mission would die, and since Tobirama acted as the decoy, that he died right there.

    My theory was more along the lines of what PaulBee said. None of the skills or abilities Madara has are because of Kabuto (Which Madara also stated when summoning the two meteors). Every skill he now possesses is something he obtained at one point in his previous lifetime, or obtained after he used Rinne Tensei. The difference is, Madara actually did die of old age, and not because he was KIA. So therefore, like everyone else, he would have come back as an old man. Since an old Madara who had trouble even walking would be useless on the battlefield, he did something to give him his younger body back. So because he learned all of these things before he died, no matter what state he was brought back in, he would have some sort of access to them. Kabuto knew that a VOTE Madara would be much more efficient, so he proceeded to do whatever he did, to give Madara his youth.
    Last edited by janfeae; 02-12-2014 at 03:47 AM.

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