View Poll Results: Naruto Chapter Rating Scale

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  • I...I love you Kishi

    5 41.67%
  • Pretty Nice

    4 33.33%
  • A fair chapter

    0 0%
  • Not too impressed

    1 8.33%
  • Kishi...Why you do dis?? >:(

    2 16.67%
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  1. #31
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    It's almost certian that The SO6P and MAYBE His Two Sons were natural Sages. If The SO6P is a duplicte of the Juubi, and the Juubi is a Vessel of Natural Energy, then The SO6P himself too would have been a vessel of Natural Energy, basically a Sage.

    In turn, Hashirama's Sage mode is certainly different from the toads', and I believe it was something that was Natural to Hashirama. Then, if Hashirama is a mere approximation of the Younger son, then it follows that the Younger son was also a Natural Sage, however on a Higher level than Hashirama was. Surprisingly, Madara was/is not a Sage, this then leaves the possibility that the Older Son of the Sage of Six Paths was not a Sage, therefore his off spring did not become sages either.

    If my assertions are true, then one might say that Sage Energy is a Yang Effect, primarily.

    The above does not preclude Sasuke from becoming a Sage though, and even if he did, my feeling is that the Highest boost he could get would be the Older Son's Level
    If something, So6p is a duplicate of his mother that ate a fruit filled with chakra, seemingly without any NE in there, yet (chakra can become NE under certain circumstances and vice-versa), so whatever he got, was chakra, just like his mother, unless his father was from Jyuugo's clan, or something.

    Sage Mode obviously wasn't something natural to Hashirama, if it had been then he would have been rampaging or using it in some form when he was a kid, or when he obtained Mokutoun, not only after being a Hokage for some time. Also, it was stated that Sage Mode is something that can only be obtained with hard work and training, even if one has predispositions for it. Senjutsu Transformation might be inheritable, but Sage Mode will never be (not to mention that it would be strange for him to be the only one from his family to obtain 2 special, very different, powers). Hashirama might have been born with some traits that aided him in learning and mastering Sage Mode, but he certainly didn't have Sago Mode when he was born (the same likely goes for So6p's son).

    Basing on what we know, Hashirama's Sage Mode most likely comes from the Bone Forest, seeing as that place was mentioned among the 3 legendary places, almost certainly because that's where one can learn Sage Mode and so far we have only seen 3 types of Sage Modes (plus Senjutsu Transformations, but that's different).



  2. #32
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    If something, So6p is a duplicate of his mother that ate a fruit filled with chakra, seemingly without any NE in there, yet (chakra can become NE under certain circumstances and vice-versa), so whatever he got, was chakra, just like his mother, unless his father was from Jyuugo's clan, or something.

    Sage Mode obviously wasn't something natural to Hashirama, if it had been then he would have been rampaging or using it in some form when he was a kid, or when he obtained Mokutoun, not only after being a Hokage for some time. Also, it was stated that Sage Mode is something that can only be obtained with hard work and training, even if one has predispositions for it. Senjutsu Transformation might be inheritable, but Sage Mode will never be (not to mention that it would be strange for him to be the only one from his family to obtain 2 special, very different, powers). Hashirama might have been born with some traits that aided him in learning and mastering Sage Mode, but he certainly didn't have Sago Mode when he was born (the same likely goes for So6p's son).

    Basing on what we know, Hashirama's Sage Mode most likely comes from the Bone Forest, seeing as that place was mentioned among the 3 legendary places, almost certainly because that's where one can learn Sage Mode and so far we have only seen 3 types of Sage Modes (plus Senjutsu Transformations, but that's different).
    Obviously the Rinnegan's powers are not just Chakra. Being able to control all 7 Paths is only possible for a rinnegan bearer, and not for any other Chakra Weilder. Hence the SO6P who was born with the Rinnegan, was born with The unearthly attributes of the Juubi.

    I had surnised that I Hashirama was born with Sage Mode (AND MOKUTON), he may not have been able to awaken it until he was past puberty. We cannot say with certitude that Hashirama first used Mokuton and Sage mode after he had been Hokage. Kishimoto may just have not yet revealed all about Hashirama yet. Mokuto was not something Hashirama learnt, so Maybe his Sage Mode wasn't learnt either.

    Hashirama is indeed very Special and Very different from anyone in his family. It may well be that Kishimoto reveals that Hashirama's Sage Mode was from the Bone Forest, but we don't know that yet. Hashirama was certainly Genetically different somehow, his cells can do miracles, and he can heal himself from wounds without using seals. I'd say that both a Dormant gene and a Recessive gene were activated in Hashirama, this activation being so rare that Not even his Offspring who were potentially blessed with the Uzumaki Stamina and longevity could even replicate his abilities.

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  3. #33
    Senior Member janfeae's Avatar
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    Natural energy is available to everyone, and its source is not the Juubi. The Juubi is the source of all chakra, and natural Energy is just that, natural energy. Natural energy is not a special kind of chakra. Sage mode is the successful mixture of both Natural energy and one's own chakra (physical and spiritual energy).


    Naruto must stand still to take in natural energy, even if the moment is now brief thanks to Bijuu mode. People like Juugo and Hashirama require no interval of time to obtain Natural Energy. We don't know what kind of abilities Hashirama or even Madara had when they were young. The panels involving their younger versions in combat were all head to head clashes with weapons and such.


    Madara was considered to be one of the top Uchiha even back then, based on what he and his father said, and we have no idea what kind of Jutsu's he possessed. The same goes for Hashirama. We have no idea what abilities he possessed as a child. From what we know, there has been no ninja who was simply born with a sharingan. If we can't accept that he was born the way he is, he could have just as easily awakened a special sage mode, in the way Uchiha's awaken a sharingan. We are talking about Natural Energy here, but there have been known to be exceptions like Juugo. But even with him, it is available to him because of his bloodline, and bloodline traits are not always present at birth. A lot of ninja developed techniques that they did not learn from another ninja. Many ninja in their history have discovered their own techniques and utilized them in their own unique ways.


    Hashirama was a prodigy, so I wouldn't have trouble believing that he discovered natural energy one day through meditation or something. After all, as we've seen with Naruto, it is very closely related to Mokuton. It's just like how I could believe that someone like Itachi could have discovered natural energy and successfully master it with minor struggle. With most ninja, I'd stick to the information we have suggesting that obtaining Sage Mode is a very difficult feat. The only thing that brings uncertainty to the table here is Hashirama, and his very unique abilities. Many of his techniques and abilities have not been explained, like say someone like Madara.

  4. #34
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    I really think that Hashirama is unique. If he had just discovered Sage Mode by any other means other than Nature, How could Madara simply Take it from Him. Madara cannot simply just take something from someone else, if it was a skill they had learnt, yet we saw Madara absorb that ability from Hashirama.

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  5. #35
    The one and only Pure Logic's Avatar
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    While we are on the topic of Sage Mode.... Toad Sage... Dragon Sage..... Mokuton Sage "I still believe that Mokuton isn't the actual name of his Sage Mode I expect it has to do with the Slug Sage Mode" Have to do with animals... but how does that vary? I know Naruto has a contract with the toads... but if he didn't would he still be able to use Sage Mode or a generic sage mode? Sage modes have been related to animals and Juugo's clan.... I hope Kishi explains this. Also was the Sage's Body capable of generating his own Natural Chakra and that's why he was able to fight the Juubi.... "Fighting Fire with Fire" in a way?

  6. #36
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by janfeae View Post
    Natural energy is available to everyone, and its source is not the Juubi. The Juubi is the source of all chakra, and natural Energy is just that, natural energy. Natural energy is not a special kind of chakra. Sage mode is the successful mixture of both Natural energy and one's own chakra (physical and spiritual energy).


    Naruto must stand still to take in natural energy, even if the moment is now brief thanks to Bijuu mode. People like Juugo and Hashirama require no interval of time to obtain Natural Energy. We don't know what kind of abilities Hashirama or even Madara had when they were young. The panels involving their younger versions in combat were all head to head clashes with weapons and such.


    Madara was considered to be one of the top Uchiha even back then, based on what he and his father said, and we have no idea what kind of Jutsu's he possessed. The same goes for Hashirama. We have no idea what abilities he possessed as a child. From what we know, there has been no ninja who was simply born with a sharingan. If we can't accept that he was born the way he is, he could have just as easily awakened a special sage mode, in the way Uchiha's awaken a sharingan. We are talking about Natural Energy here, but there have been known to be exceptions like Juugo. But even with him, it is available to him because of his bloodline, and bloodline traits are not always present at birth. A lot of ninja developed techniques that they did not learn from another ninja. Many ninja in their history have discovered their own techniques and utilized them in their own unique ways.


    Hashirama was a prodigy, so I wouldn't have trouble believing that he discovered natural energy one day through meditation or something. After all, as we've seen with Naruto, it is very closely related to Mokuton. It's just like how I could believe that someone like Itachi could have discovered natural energy and successfully master it with minor struggle. With most ninja, I'd stick to the information we have suggesting that obtaining Sage Mode is a very difficult feat. The only thing that brings uncertainty to the table here is Hashirama, and his very unique abilities. Many of his techniques and abilities have not been explained, like say someone like Madara.
    From what was presented so far, Natural Energy is most likely a higher form of condensed chakra, hence why So6p was able to turn Jyuubi's NE into Chakra for the Bijuu and how the Bijuu made of chakra were completely turned into NE of the revived Jyuubi and then how the sealed Jyuubi's (in a Jinchuriki) NE again is transformed somehow into chakra for the user to use... plus NE already being a balanced higher form of condensed chakra would also explain why one can freely mix it with a normal chakra. Not to mention how the Shinju itself being made fully of NE was also able to create a fruit filled with only chakra, as well as absorb the chakra from ninjas and turn it back into NE...

    Not quite, Naruto doesn't really need to stand still to absorb NE, he needs to be truly still to "feel" it. That's why people like Jyuugo and CS users can absorb NE while moving, or how Jiraya could move while the toads were gathering it for him. If Naruto had found a way or gained an ability to feel NE even while moving, then he would have been able to absorb it while moving as well. It's possible that Hashirama himself, thanks to his Mokutoun, can feel NE even while moving.

    Sage Mode is something that can only be obtained through hard work and training at a special place, stated by Kabuto (and thus Oro who was unable to obtain it by himself) as a fact, though one still needs certain predisposition/traits to be able to master it. Every other utilization of NE is false and weaker, known as the Senjutsu Transformation (the CSs belongs to this group, as well as Madara stealing Senjutsu Chakra from Hashirama).

    The side-effects of NE differs by the types of Senjutsu-Transformations and Sage Modes. For example Senjutsu-Transformation of Jyuugo (and thus CS which are based on it) make one crazy/mad (we have seen this with Jyuugo many times, as well as with Sasuke in the beginning and all the imprisoned failed products who lost their minds after entering CS2), so most likely one needs a strong mind/spiritual energy to control it. In Frog's version, one needs to have a huge amounts of chakra, because the initial intake of NE is so big that it would instantly overpower and turn the user into stone (thus Itachi wouldn't have been able to master or even use SM-Type-F). Someone like Orochimaru wasn't able to master SM-Type-S, which resulted in his body transforming into that of a snake with hands (though he was still able to use senjutsu chakra to some extend, but was unable to enter SM), Jiraya proved that ha has reached a higher level of mastery (though still incomplete) than Oro with his version.

    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    I really think that Hashirama is unique. If he had just discovered Sage Mode by any other means other than Nature, How could Madara simply Take it from Him. Madara cannot simply just take something from someone else, if it was a skill they had learnt, yet we saw Madara absorb that ability from Hashirama.
    Madara didn't absorb the ability and he himself hasn't attained true SM (though it was enough to gain some of it's abilities). Madara merely absorbed the already balanced Senjutsu Chakra of Hashirama and stored it in his Hashirama Face. He didn't balance it and he didn't draw NE himself, he simply utilizes something that was already prepared, the moment it runs out of juice, his ability, which is a result of it, will also end. In similar manner the CS works, by utilizing Jyuugo's Cells and Orochimaru's Senjutsu Chakra in it, though indifference to CS, Madara can't absorb more NE, otherwise he wouldn't even need to steal it if Hashirama's Cell had that ability naturally...

    I guess one could compare what Madara did, with what Naruto is doing with his clones. Technically speaking Naruto stores an already balanced amounts of Senjutsu Chakra in an another container (his KB) and when he needs it, he simply draws the already balanced senjutsu chakra from it, by dispersing the clone. Madara did a similar thing, by drawing the remaining amount of Senjutsu Chakra (that Hashirama had left after their battle) and storing it in a part of his body that already proved capable of utilizing it, the Hashirama Face. He gained access to some of the abilities of the Sage Mode, but since most of his body still has has a standard chakra coursing through him, the transformation occurs mainly on the Hashirama Face in which it is gathered.
    Last edited by Zero; 02-07-2014 at 07:05 AM.



  7. #37
    Senior Member janfeae's Avatar
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    Well either way, Naruto can not gather it on the move, and neither could the toads. I wasn't saying that it wasn't possible, because Hashirama proved otherwise: I just meant Naruto was not quite on par with Hashirama, because of the time interval required for him to intake natural energy. Hashirama can do this almost instantly, and while on the move. The toads also sat still to gather the energy, while Jiraiya acted as a line of defense. If they knew how to gather natural energy while moving, there would be no need to try an fuse to him to constantly gather natural energy, while the ninja did the fighting.

    I think I sorta get what you're trying to say about chakra stemming from natural energy, but I still believe they are separate, which is part of why it's available to any ninja, beast, or animal. It is the successful mixing of the two that creates Sage Mode, and is the part that requires the strenuous training, and special prerequisites. The Juubi being composed of mostly natural energy proves that it predates the very rare fruit that contained the origin of all chakra. So while they certainly have similarities, I wouldn't go as far as to say that chakra is actually all around them, as opposed to it being natural energy. Sensor ninja would constantly feel chakra all around them if natural energy was just another way of saying natural chakra. Chakra already has a ying and yang, and I don't think it has room for another part lol

    I take Kabuto's words to be opinion to a very small extent. In regards to over 99.9% of all the shinobi that have ever existed, his words probably hold true. It's like saying no one could become the next Sage of the six paths. If someone said that, technically, they'd be right, and not a soul would doubt those words. There were still however, a few exceptions like Obito and Madara, and other potential candidates like the two sons, and Naruto: Very few exceptions in comparison to all the ninja who have ever existed. Its most certainly not a feat that an average or even special ninja could accomplish. Looking at Juugo alone already disproves his theory about it applying to literally every ninja who has ever existed. But I'm still not so sure Hashirama had a teacher and vigorous training like Naruto and Kabuto. After all, a lot Hashirama's techniques have not been seen since the days of Hagoromo, so there was no one around to teach him these things: Not to mention, his unique Sage Mode stems from his Mokuton which is something no one before him could use, other than the sage, and perhaps the younger son. It would seem that it certainly didn't come from a Toad, Snake, Slug, or any other ninja animal, so I think Kabuto's words lose some validity when applied to someone like Hashirama or Juugo's clan. I can almost assure anyone that the original Sage had no special training period, in which he spent a great deal of time to learn how to successfully mix natural energy, with the physical and spiritual energies of chakra.

  8. #38
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by janfeae View Post
    Well either way, Naruto can not gather it on the move, and neither could the toads. I wasn't saying that it wasn't possible, because Hashirama proved otherwise: I just meant Naruto was not quite on par with Hashirama, because of the time interval required for him to intake natural energy. Hashirama can do this almost instantly, and while on the move. The toads also sat still to gather the energy, while Jiraiya acted as a line of defense. If they knew how to gather natural energy while moving, there would be no need to try an fuse to him to constantly gather natural energy, while the ninja did the fighting.

    I think I sorta get what you're trying to say about chakra stemming from natural energy, but I still believe they are separate, which is part of why it's available to any ninja, beast, or animal. It is the successful mixing of the two that creates Sage Mode, and is the part that requires the strenuous training, and special prerequisites. The Juubi being composed of mostly natural energy proves that it predates the very rare fruit that contained the origin of all chakra. So while they certainly have similarities, I wouldn't go as far as to say that chakra is actually all around them, as opposed to it being natural energy. Sensor ninja would constantly feel chakra all around them if natural energy was just another way of saying natural chakra. Chakra already has a ying and yang, and I don't think it has room for another part lol

    I take Kabuto's words to be opinion to a very small extent. In regards to over 99.9% of all the shinobi that have ever existed, his words probably hold true. It's like saying no one could become the next Sage of the six paths. If someone said that, technically, they'd be right, and not a soul would doubt those words. There were still however, a few exceptions like Obito and Madara, and other potential candidates like the two sons, and Naruto: Very few exceptions in comparison to all the ninja who have ever existed. Its most certainly not a feat that an average or even special ninja could accomplish. Looking at Juugo alone already disproves his theory about it applying to literally every ninja who has ever existed. But I'm still not so sure Hashirama had a teacher and vigorous training like Naruto and Kabuto. After all, a lot Hashirama's techniques have not been seen since the days of Hagoromo, so there was no one around to teach him these things: Not to mention, his unique Sage Mode stems from his Mokuton which is something no one before him could use, other than the sage, and perhaps the younger son. It would seem that it certainly didn't come from a Toad, Snake, Slug, or any other ninja animal, so I think Kabuto's words lose some validity when applied to someone like Hashirama or Juugo's clan. I can almost assure anyone that the original Sage had no special training period, in which he spent a great deal of time to learn how to successfully mix natural energy, with the physical and spiritual energies of chakra.
    Well, he does stand still for a short while in one place before entering Sage Mode, so we can't really call that on the move, when he stands still in one place . I could imagine Hashirama storing his Senjutsu Chakra in his tree/roots like Naruto does with his clones (or Oro in other people ), so that he can quickly access it by touching the ground (and the roots). Unless you mean something different by saying on the move ? Well, regardless he certainly saps it quickly (perhaps the bigger is the chakra pool, the easier it is to draw greater amounts of NE ? Or he simply reached such level by training, not to mention that even if he had drawn too much, his regeneration would probably save him from any consequences).

    Jyuugo's Senjutsu Transformations and CSs are not Sage Modes, otherwise neither Orochimaru nor Kabuto would bother learning the real Sage Mode, if CS/ST was as good/the same thing as Sage Mode. The difference between CS/ST and SM, is seemingly like the difference between Sharingang and Mankegyou Sharingan (funny enough, in both cases the user gains better vision and some abilities that normally one cannot obtain).

    Also, there were many people that tried to achieve Sage Mode. Those that failed completely are dead, those that managed to survive even though failing, have become the talking ninja animals, those that have reached certain levels, were able to utilize NE to some extend and then there are those that have truly achieved Sage Mode (currently only 3 person are known ?) and yet that too can be improved.

    Paulbee was trying to link Hashirama's Sage Mode and Mokutoun as one, but perhaps it's more like the result of mastering Sage Mode, or rather the contact with NE itself might have awakened his Kekkei Genkai. According to Fukasaku, SM activates the body in an uncountable amounts of ways (the CS2 itself strengthens the Kekkei Genkais greatly), so if there was some power sleeping within a person, then that would have been awakened by the SM, or perhaps by a doze of NE. This probably means that Naruto will not awaken any power from his lineage, since if he had something it would have activated after mastering SM (there is still the Bijuu's gift anyway). So if Hashirama was searching for power and entered the forest, the contact with NE might have really awakened his powers, while the SM itself was mastered later on, after he became Hokage (seeing as Jiraya didn't have that much time to simply focus on mastering, the same would have been likely for Hashirama).
    Last edited by Zero; 02-07-2014 at 12:14 PM.



  9. #39
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    I am not neccessarily (at least not directly) linking Hashirama's Mokuton to his Sage Power. Instead I am saying that something Unique about Hashirama has allowed him to have both. I do note that others have copied/transplanted his Mokuton (like Madara and Yamato for instance), but they could not recreate his sage mode with the Mokuton.

    The reason I don't subscribe to Madara simply stealing Hashirama's stored Sage Energy, is because Hashirama Himself had no Markings (proof of sage mode as per Pa Toad), on his face at the Time Madara took his Sage Power or chakra. So he himself wasn't using sage mode at the time when Madara took his sage chakra.

    I just believe that Hashirama's Sage Mode is unique to him in the same way hs Mokuton is, A throw Back to the Younger Son . I also believe that Madara Specifically Wanted Hashirama's Sage Power, and Not just any sage Power. Why else did he not just go to the snakes or slugs, or even toads to learn sage mode, he certainly had the chakra reserve to be a sage.

    On Another Note:

    Madara is definitely a more complete sage of six paths, However I not that the ring atop his staff is an incomplete 3/4ths of a circle, and it lacks the smaller inner rings. His over-cloack ressembles Naruto and Minato's when in bijuu mode, and it has flame-ike emanations. Also Madara's Cloack's Lapel is laying down flat, not collar-like Like the SO6P, Naruto, and Minato's.
    Last edited by paulbee; 02-07-2014 at 12:52 PM.

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  10. #40
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    ^ The reason why Hashirama didn't have the markings anymore, is because he used up most of his Senjutsu Chakra and was left with more of his normal one seemingly at that point, he simply used it up, so it wasn't enough to sustain his SM, but one doesn't need to be in Sage Mode to use Senjutsu Chakra (look at Oro for example). Madara had gathered the remaining amount of it and put it in one place (it's similar to the partial CS2 transformation that Jyuugo, Sasuke and Kimimaro were able to do), that's why the marking appeared only on the H-Face and not on Madara's face. The rest of Hashirama's normal chakra had remained in his edo-body which he then passed it to Sasuke.

    We also have to remember that there seems to be different conditions for each type of Sage Mode, so Madara probably wouldn't like to risk it going out of control by taking some random Senjutsu Chakra, instead he would aim at one that already proved to be compatible. Not to mention that it seems to be more of a bonus thanks to Hashirama being zombified and utilizing the NE, than a part of his plan.

    Also, putting all of it in one place, allowed for a partial transformation (of a body part), thanks to which Madara gained the sensory abilities of Hashirama's SM (for his blind state it was certainly useful, not to mention that it allowed him to even avoid Tobirama's and Sasuke's ambush ). Other than that, he probably didn't get any other boost, since the amount of Senjutsu Chakra that he obtained from a worn out Hashirama was too little for a full SM (not to forget that neither Tobirama nor Hashirama were revived at full power). He probably only uses it for sensing purposes.

    Red, Yellow and Violet are so far the colors of the markings of the known Sage Modes. It's probably worth clarifying that the type of SM is depended on the environment in which it was obtained. Basically while connecting with Nature, the user also adapts to the environment, so he/she/it obtains characteristics of the animal most fit to live and survive in that certain environment. So far we know of 3 places in which one can master SM, the mountain of frogs, the cave of snakes and the forest of slimes. Specifically speaking the frog mountain has that special oil filled up with NE that only works in the mountain for example, which makes it one of the special places where NE is probably especially gathered.

    The first humans that found such places, likely tried to master that new type of energy after discovering the special properties of those areas, which their failure seemingly lead to creation of the talking ninja animals. Whether it is something that was founded before So6p or after him, is unknown. Of course those that managed to avoid complete failure and were turned into animals, were able to gain NE's power to some extend and also gained a better understanding of it, so when a new person showed up, or they themselves brought such a person to this place, they could show and explain how it works and the risks and conditions associated with it.



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