View Poll Results: Rate the Chapter!
- 16. You may not vote on this poll
5 - Excellent
4 - Good
3 - Meh
2 - Badz
1 - Terribadz
01-09-2014, 12:09 AM
IIRC at some point it was revealed that the Senju was actually a clan that was a gathering of many clans (hence why it is named so). The reason they renamed themselves as a Senju was in order to fight as one, under the same bander, but after creation of Konoha, there was no longer need for that, since now they would all fight under the Konoha name and thus could have simply returned to their own original names. Some died. Some mixed. Thus we reach the current stage of the clan, which is so far only one person remaining (under the surname known as Senju, though the Senju's lineage probably survived).
Basically the Senju name lost it's meaning after creation of Konoha and thus after it, was likely only used in order to recognize those that are directly related by blood to Hashirama (brother, children, grandchildren).
Of course taking into consideration Hashirama's declaration, at the time of Madara's "death", if they had been viewed as "dangerous" and "harmful", then they might have been annihilated by Hashirama himself.
01-09-2014, 01:03 AM
The one and only
Chapter that says that? If that was the case then how did Madara know he was some how related to the Sage?
01-09-2014, 01:05 AM
Originally Posted by Zero
Senju means a thousand hands or a thousand skills. Their clan specialized in ninja who were prodigies in all forms of the ninja arts (Taijutsu, Genjustu, Ninjutsu) and that is where their clan name originates. I looked it up and the clan never disbanded under that notion. As you know, Konoha was the first gathering place of many clans in one place, and they still maintained their respective clans and surnames. But take for instance, the Uchiha, several months before the massacre. They were very well versed in the ninja arts, and specialized in Fire Style. All I'm really trying to say is the Uchiha stood out as the top clan of the village because of their strength. So much so that they were feared, and pushed into the corners of the village, from fear of what they might do.
So, you have this powerful clan, that seemed to be at the top of the food chain. It is now a proven fact they they were in fact, at a point in time, outclassed by another clan: The Senju. Theoretically speaking, if the Senju simply mixed into other clans (like every other clan does), the remaining ninja and their offspring should have stood out even more so than they did. Virtually every ninja that bore the name Uchiha stood out for their incredible natural talent. Even the most respected clan ( according to old chapters) the Hyuuga, took a backseat to the overwhelming power of the Uchiha. If you look at the rookie 11, the supposed top genin in the village ( and now some of the top Chunin and Jonin) , each of them stand out for different reasons, but none like an Itachi or a Sasuke: namely a Uchiha. The few that do are from a strict family line like Neji. If the senju's are still around, but just mixed in with other clans, they should still maintain that recognition and praise. None of who we knew of back then or even now appear to have any traits that make them equal or superior to the Uchiha (as a clan: Definitely not saying the Uchiha are completely invincible and modern day Konoha ninja would be powerless).
I know having a last name doesn't automatically make you strong ( like a young Hinata or Obito) but I know if the Uchiha were on that battlefield, they would stand out like they did in the past. I can only assume the same for the Senju. No one in the modern day leaf village is really at Senju level in terms of power. Tsunade is the only person alive that I believe has a genuine Senju life force. I don't think any member from any other clan in today's leaf village possess the raw power that the Uchiha and Senju had. Of course there are a few noteworthy people like say Kakashi, but in terms of chakra and life force, nothing suggests that this one and only clan is now nonexistent because they mixed in with other clans. All others that did, still maintained their attributes.
So to sum it up, I would still appreciate some more convincing lol
01-09-2014, 01:15 AM
The one and only
Well said. Also the forming of the Konoha, still doesn't mean a whole clan of at least 100 Senju, would disappear once the village started. I wonder if the Senju were massacred also... and maybe by Madara?
01-09-2014, 01:57 AM
Konoha was the first gathering of ALL major clans of a country in one place, that's why it was such a big deal (at least it quickly reached that level before Hokage was even chosen). It was the first time that the two strongest clans in a country joined with each other, while other small clans (or some of it's members) joining a bigger one was seemingly a common thing as can be seen with the Senju (especially how even some of the Uchiha simply joined the clan as Senju, way, way before they even joined together). Of course after the two strongest clan joined together, there was no way to oppose them, so every other major clan in the country joined them, while clans in other countries simply copied that system.
The Senju clan technically did disappear, as only one member of it technically remains under that clan name (it being made up of one person, can't be really called a clan). The Senju clan known as Senju did disappear, what remained was only the Senju family that in time died out, up to a single member remaining of the family.
It was never mentioned how or why they disappeared, but basing on what the Clan was, what Konoha is, what Hashirama decided to do and all others hints, we can guess it was most likely something along the lines of what was already mentioned.
The moment that Konoha was build, there was no need for the Senju Clan anymore, since it was essentially replaced by Konoha. The only one that still used the Senju name, were those directly related to Hashirama. That's what we know, so if there were somewhere, but not shown, then they would jump out in this war just as the Sarutobi clan pooped out.
It's also worth mentioning that Danzou's clan also seemingly disappeared as he was seemingly the last member of it. It was a major clan at the level of Sarutobi, yet it also faded away. This probably means that most clans at their core, had very little true members that shared blood. This is reasonable because it would be hard to give birth to so many ninjas from only one family, especially when they constantly had to send even young kids to battles. Even now, most of the remaining clans of Konoha seem more like big families than a clans.
In the first place, Clan is something like a gathering of people under the same banner, which whom the secrets of the clan are shared (of course the members of the Clan have other gains). Basically all the families, like for example the Haruno, or Hatake, that are simply made of a 3 person family, in the past would need to be assimilated into a bigger clan to survive (thus loosing their original surname), but now there is no need for that and they can retain their individuality, as they are gathered together under a different system now, the Hidden Ninja Village system.
In a way, you can probably compare it to how in the past, people born in the village/town Z, were called John from Z (basically the place from where they come, was acting as the surname of those times). In times it has changed, it had to change when a gathering of people in one place surpassed a certain amount (just imagine, 1/4 of people in our currents cities being named Josh from Z, lol ;P), thus they had to be given individual surnames, so that it would be easier to identify them from the rest of the people.
Seriously, there might be many reasons to why it ended this way.
All the clans and families in the village are grouped up as the "Ninja of Konoha Village", so there is no much of a reason to group people with different abilities and skills in Clans anymore (each family can now be considered a separate clan, since they united under a different system). That is also why mostly only the big clans that had their own Kekkei Genkai or distinguishable jutsu have remained. This probably means that only the people that wanted to remain within the clan, after entering Konoha, had done that, while others chose to make their own or returned to their previous ones.
@Pure, what I meant was the they simply returned to their previous surnames, the ones that they had before they were forced to join a bigger clan which they had to abandon for the the sake of unity.
BTW I remember that someone once suggested that most of the Senju abandoned their surnames for the sake of safety, but seeing as the Sarutobi clan survived normally with that surname, even though being related to the God of Shinobi 3rd Hokage Sarutobi Hiruzen, that's probably not the case.
Last edited by Zero; 01-09-2014 at 02:08 AM.
01-09-2014, 03:01 AM
Originally Posted by Zero
lol how about that, my actual name is Joshua.
But thank you for providing your insight. You, PaulBee, and RlinFamous inspired me to join this forum in the first place. Though admittedly, it's pretty much what you told me in the past if you remember lol. The only real problem I have is the power standard, and the individuality standard. Everything you just said could also be applied to the Uchiha. They were part of what made, the Village Hidden in the Leaves. They were "out-ninja'd" but they were more like rivals, because the gap in power was relatively small. So why didn't the Uchiha disband? It was Hashirama's goal for everyone to become one like they are right now, but before the war, all clans still maintained individuality. It's not like other clans don't mix of course. Our protagonist is a result of two bloodlines. No one has any idea of what happened to the Namikaze's either. I had heard that Kishimoto would address his lineage in a 2012 or 2013 interview, but right now, just like the Senju, no one actually knows where this clan disappeared too.
In life and in fiction, family lines are lost because it is up to the males to carry on a lineage. If the males produce no children, or just daughters, the family line is lost. In this case, I don't think any clan in Naruto is lost because of this. I believe that almost every clan in Naruto that is no longer, is a result of the amount of deaths the clan faced. We know this was the fate of the Uzumaki, and I believe a similar fate befell the Senju, and Namikaze clans, as well as other clans that are low in number, or those that are extinct like the Kaguya (Kimimaro) or the Yuki clan (Haku). I just can't see why the Senju would be an exception to all of these things. But there is a second standard I mentioned: The power standard.
As i stated before, the Uchiha for the most part, were naturally gifted, and therefore naturally recognized and revered throughout the world. Their raw power and ninja ability made them easily recognizable, along with their trademark, the Sharingan. No one in the leaf today is that recognizable for their power other than a very select few, who are infamous for special skills unrelated to the lost clan: Like Kakashi again, the man who copied a thousand jutsu. (Which ironically directly relates to the Uchiha lol). Not many other ninja in the leaf are known throughout the world. I believe if they truly mixed, almost every member from the original bloodline would still be very recognizable, but no one stands out like that. Tsunade for example, a known descendant, was and is recognized for her various powers, like that of a fully realized Senju. I would expect the same for most of the other descendants if they were still around.
I honestly can't believe I never questioned the fate of the Uzumaki, but it did make me question the fate of the Senju. I had assumed Naruto had given himself his last name, but we later found out why they labeled him Uzumaki over Namikaze. I really don't think Kishimoto wrote off history's most powerful clan that way.
Fianlly, here's what I believe or theorize, if you will....ahem... lol The Senju are no more, and the death of Hashirama and the Senju's demise are directly related and intertwined: An event kept top secret, like the attack on Uzushiogakure. Does everyone else feel that they just kinda blended in as fodder ninja or established characters, or that something happened?
Last edited by janfeae; 01-09-2014 at 03:48 AM.
01-09-2014, 03:13 AM
The one and only
Maybe half there clan converted to the Uzumaki Clan?
01-09-2014, 04:47 AM
In Uchiha's case they weren't even allowed to disperse and freely mix with others, as easily as other clans could, because of what Tobirama implemented - separation of all Uchiha from the village, putting them into a special district in which only Uchiha were, giving them a job that would automatically make them unlikable to the public. It didn't make it impossible, but as Orochimaru said, it certainly added fuel to the fire, by providing convenient environment for dislike (from both sides) and eventual rebellion.
The clans did indeed become bonded to some degree, an example of that might be that everyone can learn a lot the same things and there are a lot jutsu free to learn to the public. Also, teaching some secret, powerful and useful jutsu to non-clan members, would have been a unthinkable and forbidden in the past, yet now it's almost favorable to do so (since it technically strengthens the whole village, of course revealing them outside is still forbidden). Kakashi teaching his only original jutsu (that is easily at the level of a clan trademark jutsu) to Sasuke (who is from another clan), Jiraya taking random pupils, Tsunade taking random pupils, or the Jounin teaching a lot of useful things to the genins in their teams.
Of course, some clan still hold their secrets, though in most cases it seems more like it would simply be more fruitful to teach non-clan members other jutsu than the ones used by the clan, seeing as through blood relations and constant usage of a type of a jutsu, the clan gains innate proficiency in it (it can be seen in those like Aburame, Akimichi, Nara that have specialized jutsu, or how even the Sarutobi or Uchiha clan as a whole have become highly proficient in using fire-type jutsu, even if a person is of a different natural type).
Some clans have abilities or characteristic that would make other stay away from them, like the Aburame clan where each members if filled with uncountable amount of bugs... you would think that most people wouldn't want to mix them normally ?
Then there are clans that hold the Kekkei Genkai which usually can't be copied or learned. Those clans usually concentrate on maintaining their Kekkei Genkai (like the Hyuga). This is important, seeing as in the current age Uchiha, the people born with the Sharingan have become rare (that's probably why they had to rebel now while they still had people with the Sharingan), although this was said at the begining of the story and is highly probable that Kishi had revised this .
We also need to take into consideration the circumstances. While technically speaking, from the end of the clan wars to the current time, it was only around 80 years, in short it was merely 2-3 generations ago (in this case Hashirama/Tpbirama (1st) -> Children(2nd) -> Grandchildren (3rd: Tsunade, Nawaki)). This means that in 2 generations, the clan had become almost non-existent, under the official name that is (only one member remaining). Of course one has to remember that in that time there were 3 World Ninja Wars, not to mention that they risk their lives on every mission (well most of them ) as well.
We also need to remember that the Senju as a Clan hadn't anything distinguishing about them, beside the above average life force (though only few had a truly impressive one) and the amount of jutsu and different people in it. The moment Konoha was made, the only thing remaining (seeing as a lot of the jutsu became public) was life force, which only few had exceptional. On the other hand, Uzumaki had life force, red hair and heavily respected sealing jutsus. In reality there wasn't anything that could bound the Senju as a clan after Konoha was created, so I don't see any reason that they would remain as one (the missions are given to the village (and then to ninjas based on their skill) instead to the clan like it was before).
We also can't depend on the info in the Databooks anymore, seeing as Kishi made a lot of revision around the way.
From the looks of it, about half (if not more) of the Senju Clan members weren't related by blood, so that part likely stopped being known as Senju after Konoha's creation (remember, in the past, missions were given to Clans, not like to Villages now). This leaves around 50% of true Senju, around 25% of them probably died in battles around the way, around 23% have mixed with others and cased being part of Senju, thus this leaves about 2% remaining (about 1-2 families). This is a wild guess though , it's possible that those of true relation to younger son might have been a really small portion of the whole clan after all (like 5-10%). Seriously if one were to look at the pictures showing the Senju clan, one would notice that everyone is different, lol (different hair, eye color, skin tone and other things).
We also need to remember that after creation of Konoha, IIRC, not once have Tobirama discussed with Hashirama about being a head of the Senju clan anymore (at least it was not shown). This might actually mean that the clan might have simply been disbanded the moment Konoha was formed. On the other hand, if the clan still existed, they didn't have any worthy leader for quite a long time, seeing as both Hashirama and Tobirama were busy with managing the village, neither did they had any secret clan jutsu that wasn't released to the public, while those that had a special jutsu probably separated themselves anyway. This might mean that Namikaze family might be even a direct descendants of Tobirama, seeing as they possessed the Hirashin, of course it's also possible that it was released to the public, but simply there was no one that was capable of using it.
If the Nature type was somewhat hereditary, then we can make some interesting connections seeing as Shimura clan was seemingly the only wind-based clan and that wind element was rare in Konoha (as mentioned by Assuma). This would mean the Hiruzen's wife, was someone from the Shimura clan, if we take into consideration Hirashin and Wind element of Minato, this also would mean that someone from Tobirama's line married a Shimura again (perhaps creating a new surname at that time).
Seeing as hair color seems to be somewhat hereditary, we could also potentially put every White-Silver-Gray haired person under those that have descended from the Senju (this would include White Fang and Jiraya, that were recognized as exceptionally skilled ninjas, not to mention that WF being compared to the chakra beasts that the Senin were, also likely had a big pool of chakra, which Kakashi didn't inherit ).
It probably will never be explained anyway . Then again it feels a bit unfair seeing as the Uchiha clan was quite heavily explained already... Kishi really should explain the Hyugas a bit more as well
Hmmm, I don't think so, I mean almost every Uzumaki has a red hair, the rest have white (an effect of overusing their powers), so it might a bit hard to blend well with them, seeing as almost everyone looks differently in Senju . Also, I think that Uzumaki had the same breeding polices as the Hyuga... bu I'm not so sure about that ;p.
Originally Posted by Pure Logic
Last edited by Zero; 01-09-2014 at 05:08 AM.
01-09-2014, 06:16 AM
Originally Posted by Zero
I see, I see, I see lol Maybe Sasuke Sarutobi played a bigger role than his brief acknowledgement led on, but...I doubt it ha. I'm still not 100% on board, but the factor that could get me to waver is the climax. I hate to admit it, but things like the Senju and the Namizake hold no true relevancy at this point. I'm not like others who are so quick to call plothole, but the databook has lost some of its reliability. The only way I could see it coming to the light is if Madara and Hashirama get to talking (which they undoubtedly will) and I'm right about his death. I do believe that his manner of death will be revealed before the final chapter. Right now, were both theorizing because its technically a loose end. But just like the Uzumaki's, there was a time when we didn't even know it was a loose end, until the author gave it relevancy.
While I wish we could learn more about the Byakugan mutation, because he has created such a vast universe, I think these things may be forever overlooked. I'd like to learn about Minato and his past, Orochimaru, the only real major character left that doesn't have a back story yet and an explanation on why he is the way he is ( even though he did have that mysterious talk with Sasuke) If Naruto will ever learn Time and Space Jutsu or his clans Sealing Jutsu, where on earth our little Carmen Sandiego is ( Yamato lol) and a bunch of other things that will probably be answered, but I feel my question may always be up for debate, and never answered...and worst of all, completely forgotten.
I had wondered about Jiraiya and his unique appearance, and thought that maybe he could be a descendant of the sage, as goes with Minato and maybe even Kakashi, but once again, these are things we may never actually know. The research I have on the senju all lead to very gifted clan of shinobi. No particular trademark like other clans, but rather a superiority overall stemming from a fine mastery of all the arts. Here's a good collection of information for reference. http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Senju_Clan
The last thing I can't let go of in regards to the 100% conversion theory is that they were the elite of the ninja world. Unless they all retired from being ninjas for some reason, I can't see how the strongest ninja out there are no better than fodder ninja in terms of being recognized. They were and still are the strongest clan in the history books. But maybe you're right and they were born into new clans, and just never realized their true potential.
They only reason I'm so adamant is because it seems like something too big to be ignored, since he addressed the missing Uzumaki's lol How can you be so in depth about the second strongest clan, but completely rid the story of the strongest one without the tiniest explanation. It's like, if he didn't reveal the story about the Uzumaki's, the arguments for them would be one and the same. I'd ask, "Where did they go?" and people would respond by saying they were probably mixed in to other clans overtime. The only flaw is, the Uzumaki did have a few trademarks going for them, while the explanation on the Senju is vague. But! We didn't know they had trademarks either, until their story was revealed! So, the Senju may actually have had some like every other clan.
I always let it go for about half a year and then I bring it up again lol but thanks for entertaining my question guys. Just trying to keep the conversations flowing for another week.
01-09-2014, 07:41 AM
I kind of took it to be that the Senju clan upon the founding of Konoha all married off or joined the others with the intention of using their powerful Chakra and a large range of skills to strengthen all the other clans, making Konoha stronger overall. It is said that Konoha prospered like no other Village, and i think the reason for that was the Senju line dispersed into many other clans in the village.
I dont think the Uchiha clan stayed so together and closed because of anything Tobirama did, it was simply that they needed to intermarry in order to maintain the advantage of the Sharingan. As if they lost that, then the second strongest clan would have lost its most valuable weapon and essentially become fodder nin.
So i guess we dont get a chapter this week either? Since when have we had a 3 week break?
Originally Posted by [JUiCE]