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  1. #21
    The one and only Pure Logic's Avatar
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    Everyone is pitiful compared to Madara, he's way too overpowered, even the 5 Kages + An Army + Tailed Beast + Naruto + Sasuke + 4 Edo Hokages can compete with him. I have my doubts that Hashirama actually defeated him at all. I also wonder the skill level of the Sage and his children, and how they would compete with Madara himself.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by POW View Post
    I imagine because he would rather use his sensor ability than rely on 1 sharingan. That makes sense because Sage mode sensing is better than the sharingan as you can sense things in all directions. Madara was even able to sense Sasuke's eye shape via his sensor ability.
    That doesn't make any sense. Why would he have to close his eyes to use the Sage mode sensing? No other character in the series has to close their eyes to use it. Even with Sage mode sensing Madara should totally be able to use his eyes at the same time.

    Quote Originally Posted by POW View Post
    Obito's MS ability does not give him access to Susnaoo so that wouldn't apply anyways.

    It must mean the eye Madara took was someone who had the potential for Susanoo
    Maybe so, but that still wouldn't explain why his eyes would be closed. Even if he did have a sharingan with a Mangekyou that had belonged to someone with the Susanoo (which we know is very rare already) it doesn't explain why he would have his eyes closed while using it. The only reason that I can think of would be shock value when it is actually revealed but even that seems

    Also, if Madara had Susanoo all along why didn't he use it to block Gaara's Sand attack to begin with? The whole situation just doesn't add up.

    Quote Originally Posted by POW View Post
    I think Kishi has been hanging with Kubo before he wrote this chapter. It would have made more sense for Madara to use Mokutan to break out of that prison with that deep forest jutsu rather than susanoo.
    Definitely, there are tons of explanations that would have been better. He now has Sage mode and the Mokuton so its not like Madara is short on other powers. Its really bizarre that he used Susanoo without any explanation. I am really hoping he explains himself but considering none of the characters even mentioned it after it happened, I wouldn't be surprised if Kishi doesn't address it at all. It certainly wouldn't be the first time a Shounen manga had a massive inconsistency that was never explained. Normally Kishi does a pretty good job of explaining this sort of thing though so hopefully I am wrong and he has some reason for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Temperjoke View Post
    Well, Madara using Susanoo without his eyes lends support to my thought that he was using the Rinnegan abilities in the previous chapter.
    Except that the way Madara's power behaved was not like the Rinnegan power petra path. The Rinnegan's Petra Path creates a barrier that absorbs the technique.
    http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/551/2

    In the case of Madara, Amaterasu hit his body and even burned off his armor and his clothing, it seems like his skin absorbed it.
    http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/657/5

    Also when Nagato got hit by Amatarasu he had to use Shinra Tensei to push the flames away from his body, but his body still took substantial damage. There was no evidence that his skin could absorb the flames the way Madara was able to.
    http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/550/14

    So it seems to me like the behavior of the technique is different, which I think is explained by it being a body technique not an eye technique.

    Quote Originally Posted by Temperjoke View Post
    Sage mode could allow Madara to endure the pounding that the Tailed beasts just gave him, in theory, but I gotta say, as big a fan of Madara as I am, I think the author went too far this time. As for the instant arm replacement, since both Madara and Zetsu have Hashirama cells, it probably enhances their compatibility and healing.
    Yeah, that made sense to me. As we saw with Naruto, he could endure a ton of physical damage while in Sage mode. Madara now has Sage mode + Hashirama's healing ability + apparent ability to absorb attacks through his skin. So With all of that power combined it makes sense that he could take a beating. We also saw how Obito was able to block powerful attacks with his bare hands because of the Zetsu body. Even with all that durability + Susanoo, the tailed beast were able to shatter his defenses and deliver some significant damage so that was alright.

    The Susanoo without eyes thing definitely needs to be explained though.

  3. #23
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    It definitely seems like a plot-hole, after all neither Orochimaru nor Raikage had used Hand-Seals when they didn't have access to both of their hands... yet Madara uses eye-jutsus without eyes... let's hope that it gets explained in the future. Then again, Kekkei Genkai are tricky, since Haku had used one handed Hand-Seals while using his kekkei genkai, so perhaps Madara can also do something similar, thus using Susanoo without any eyes (when both of Madara's Rinnegans shattered, in both eyes there was blank black empty space) ?



  4. #24
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    @ Artifice,

    Both the Amaterasu absorption and Susanoo without eyes are probably just advanced Uchiha and advanced Senju power.

    Madara could absorb Chakras of all kinds including Amaterasu by means of Hashirama's Senju Sage power. Hashirama's Tree dragon sucks out chakra, in the same way, Hashirama could possibly suck out chakra directly, so what happened to Amaterasu could either be Madara absorbing the Amaterasu Chakra into himself, OR it could be him just suppressing Amaterasu the same way that Sasuke did to save Karin. It could also be both.

    As for the Susanoo, I'll repost:

    "..Maybe so, but to actually use Rinnegan and Sharingan abilities without either type of eye, I suppose there is a theory for this, but it would be sketchy. We could say that the Yin Chakra in the Uchiha eye may be in abundant enough quantity in a highly gifted Uchiha like Madara, such that his Optica Nerves which are inside the Brain, have enough of the Chakra to be able to manifest Uchiha Mangekyou Techniques. In other words, Sasuke too should be able to pull out Susanoo even if he loses his eyes..."

    Recall Tobirama's explanation about Uchiha eyes, the Mangekyou eye Chakra is in the Optic nerve too, not the eyes alone. He lost his eyes, but he still has his optic nerves.




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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    @ Artifice,

    Both the Amaterasu absorption and Susanoo without eyes are probably just advanced Uchiha and advanced Senju power.

    Madara could absorb Chakras of all kinds including Amaterasu by means of Hashirama's Senju Sage power. Hashirama's Tree dragon sucks out chakra, in the same way, Hashirama could possibly suck out chakra directly, so what happened to Amaterasu could either be Madara absorbing the Amaterasu Chakra into himself, OR it could be him just suppressing Amaterasu the same way that Sasuke did to save Karin. It could also be both.

    As for the Susanoo, I'll repost:

    "..Maybe so, but to actually use Rinnegan and Sharingan abilities without either type of eye, I suppose there is a theory for this, but it would be sketchy. We could say that the Yin Chakra in the Uchiha eye may be in abundant enough quantity in a highly gifted Uchiha like Madara, such that his Optica Nerves which are inside the Brain, have enough of the Chakra to be able to manifest Uchiha Mangekyou Techniques. In other words, Sasuke too should be able to pull out Susanoo even if he loses his eyes..."

    Recall Tobirama's explanation about Uchiha eyes, the Mangekyou eye Chakra is in the Optic nerve too, not the eyes alone. He lost his eyes, but he still has his optic nerves.
    Spoiler!
    That still sounds like a cop out to me. Madara being able to absorb techniques through his body makes sense because he still has both bloodlines in his "body". It is a technique that is clearly related to his "body" (the Sages body) or at least a lesser version of it. In the case of Susanoo it has clearly been defined as an Eye technique. Not only that, it is Madara's signature eye technique (he hasn't been shown using any other Mangekyou techniques at all. For Madara to use his signature Mangekyou technique without the Mangekyou defeats the purpose of him having the Mangekyou at all. I am not saying your wrong, I am just saying that its stupid. Why even bother having the eyes if he doesn't need the eyes to use their most prominent techniques? As it stands there seems to be no apparent reason for him to have the Sharingan at all which is a major part of his character. If its true, its just bad writing. It removes the consequence and reward of loosing or gaining the eyes. I guess he still needs the Sharingan for genjutsu and stuff but so what, the regular sharingan offers that. The bottom line is, that the only Mangekyou power Madara was ever shown using is Susanoo and now he doesn't even need the Mangekyou to perform it? Give me a break.

  6. #26
    Scanlator POW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by boyceteoh View Post
    In the previous chapter, I don't understand why Hashirama was immobilized when Madara was revived. Anyone?
    The black rods where created by Madara to be chakra antennas. This is how Nagato & Obito where able to use corpses as the 6 paths via the Rinnegan. Madara is simply using his chakra to immobilize Hashirama. I imagine the life force of living person is greater than that of a Edo tensei as well.




    Quote Originally Posted by Temperjoke View Post
    Well, Madara using Susanoo without his eyes lends support to my thought that he was using the Rinnegan abilities in the previous chapter. Sage mode could allow Madara to endure the pounding that the Tailed beasts just gave him, in theory, but I gotta say, as big a fan of Madara as I am, I think the author went too far this time. As for the instant arm replacement, since both Madara and Zetsu have Hashirama cells, it probably enhances their compatibility and healing.

    I think Hashirama healing power can restore any damage Madara took but I get the feeling he enjoys getting beat up and cut (like Kenpachi from Bleach) as its part of the thrill of battle.

    When Madara got caught in the sand pyramid trap I had a thought black zetsu would reach him and give him the rinnegan Obito was using and thats how he busted out. However that doesnt seem to be the case.


    I think something else is going on like maybe he placed sharingans in the Hashirama face.


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  7. #27
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by artifice View Post
    That still sounds like a cop out to me. Madara being able to absorb techniques through his body makes sense because he still has both bloodlines in his "body". It is a technique that is clearly related to his "body" (the Sages body) or at least a lesser version of it. In the case of Susanoo it has clearly been defined as an Eye technique. Not only that, it is Madara's signature eye technique (he hasn't been shown using any other Mangekyou techniques at all. For Madara to use his signature Mangekyou technique without the Mangekyou defeats the purpose of him having the Mangekyou at all. I am not saying your wrong, I am just saying that its stupid. Why even bother having the eyes if he doesn't need the eyes to use their most prominent techniques? As it stands there seems to be no apparent reason for him to have the Sharingan at all which is a major part of his character. If its true, its just bad writing. It removes the consequence and reward of loosing or gaining the eyes. I guess he still needs the Sharingan for genjutsu and stuff but so what, the regular sharingan offers that. The bottom line is, that the only Mangekyou power Madara was ever shown using is Susanoo and now he doesn't even need the Mangekyou to perform it? Give me a break.
    Well it could be a cop out or it could be a new revelation about the origins and abilities of the Sharingan. Like it or not Tobirama established that the Mangekyou Chakra originates inside the Brain, Not the Eyes.

    It could be as simple as that you need both eyes to awaken Susanoo, but once shaped and awakened, the power source is not in the eyes. This is different from Amaterasu that needs to be focused through the eyes.

    In fact thinking about it, there is no reason why you need eyes for Susanoo. It is a technique that surrounds the body itself, an adept should be able to use Susanoo with his eyes closed, afterall it is simply Chakra that surrounds the body like Naruto's Kurama Mode.

    I won't be too fast calling it a cop out because Kishi was not in a difficult situation. Madara could have used Mokuton to get out of the Sand Pyramid, but he instead chose susanoo. I am certain Kishi did it on purpose to further expand our insight into Sharingan Powers.

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  8. #28
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    ^Paul, even if we assume that he creates bullets (chakra/power for Susanoo) in his brain, he still should need the gun (eyes) to shoot it, right ? Plus, what was then the point of taking others eyes (like the normal Sharingan he had when he was old, since it seems more like his brother partially forced him to take his own eyes), if he never needed them then ? Doesn't this means that the risk of using Izanagi and Izanami becomes pointless ?

    On the other hand, Madara's remark about him being able to use Sasuke's EMS, might have something to do with it. Perhaps he somehow projected his own Susanoo using Sasuke's eyes that were looking at him (Rinnegan style shared vision kind of thing ?), after all, Naratuo already managed to jump back to the fight, yet Sasuke didn't (his Susanoo could have been useful along the Bijuu). Maybe there was something implanted in them after all.



  9. #29
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    @Zero,

    Naruto doesn't require his eyes to "gun" Kurama's Chakra for him to be able to use Kurama- Bijuu mode, so why should Madara require a "gun" for his Susanoo Chakra Mode?

    The Two modes are essentially the same, except that an Uchiha carries his power source in his brain Naturally whereas a jinchuriki takes power from the tailed beast.

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    Growing Old Gracefully is an Oxymoron ... Mostly Moron !

  10. #30
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    The Gun aspect is an important part of forming techniques (shooting) and techniques are used by utilizing chakra as energy source. En eye-jutsu is a jutsu that is used with/through eyes, while most normal jutsu, are used through hand-seals. The eye pattern itself might be like a seal pattern tattoo (like the summoning one) that one needs to cast some jutsu.

    So we have a bullet (chakra of certain types, properties etc.), a gun (through what is the jutsu coming/being used) and then the jutsu itself (the shooting process).

    In the same way as Orochimaru and Raikage couldn't use jutsu that revolved around hand-seals (when they couldn't use both of their hands), in the same way Madara shouldn't be able to use jutsu that revolve around eyes, without having any eyes at all...

    Then again, after the Databook proved to be a false source of information, not once was Susanoo called a doujutsu (I think ?) in the manga, only that one first needs to awaken 2 MS's doujutsu, in order to obtain Susanoo (so technically speaking it might really be something that awakens in their bodies thanks to other things awakening in their eyes).

    Naruto himself uses his own (special) body (and the seal?) as a medium (gun) to shoot (mold into a technique) the Bijuu mode. On the other hand, it seemed that Uchiha used their (special) eyes to use their doujtusu, so if Susanoo is a Doujutsu, then it can only be used through eyes. In similar manner, Madara needs a living body to become a Jinchuriki.



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