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  1. #51
    Senior Member Greed-sama's Avatar
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    Isn't the Moon's Eye Plan called the Infinite Tsukuyomi?
    My name is Corey and I am an asshole. I get excessively drunk at inappropriate times, disregard social norms, indulge in every whim, ignore the consequences of my actions, mock idiots and posers, sleep with random women, and just generally act like a raging dick head. I contribute to society in no way what so ever

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  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    So, you are saying that Shisui was a lying and manipulating bastard at heart (basing on his MS jutsu that is) ?
    Well he was a liar and manipulative, he needed to be in order be be a good double agent just like Itachi. His motives were good though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    To me it seems more about what they have been excelling at since birth. You know:
    - Shisui excelling at Genjutsu obtained Genjutsu-type MS abilities,
    - Itachi excelling near equally at both Genjutsu and Ninjutsu got a Genjtsu-type and Ninjutsu-type ability,
    - Sasuke excelling at Ninjutsu, got only Ninjutsu abilities,
    - Obito excelling at Ninjutsu, also got Ninjutsu (space-time) abilities.

    Basically, the talents that they are born with, are emphasized by their MS jutsu.
    That's quite possible. Shape manipulation does seem to be one of Sasuke's strong points, so his Enton seems to fit that fairly well. Sasuke has also always used primarily Taijutsu and Ninjutsu and his Mangekyou seems to reflect that skill set. Since we have only seen one MS technique from all of the characters aside from Sasuke and Itachi its difficult to judge for sure though. The techniques that we have seen do seem to be related to the user's experiences though. For example, Obito's master was Minato, who's signature techniques are time space techniques so it is interesting that Obito's MS technique is also time space related. It is almost as though the MS abilities give the user what they need or desire in some way. Sasuke wanted to be like Itachi and his techniques are very similar to Itachi's but they also fit closer to his own fighting style. Shisui was a double agent and Kotoamatsukami is the ultimate tool of deception. Obito wanted to be Hokage and probably to be like Minato who was his master, I don't think it is a coincidence that his Mangekyou ability is a time space technique that rivals Minato's.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    @artifice, actually it is suggested that Kakashi has quite a bit of Senju blood (at a few occasions at that), though he has the one from Tobirama's side rather than from Hashirama's. At the very least, Kakashi had activated his MS almost 20 years ago and have been actively using it for more than 1-3 year now (who knows how much he was using it during the time-skip ?), which means that his MS survived in a good condition much, much longer than that of Sasuke's and Itachi's (remember, the eye-sight deteriorates after the MS is awakened, even if the MS isn't used). For the long run, Kakashi had utilized his MS much more than Sasuke or Itachi theirs (Sasuke's didn't withstand even half a year, while Itachi's was able to hold out almost a decade, while rarely using it).
    That's what I find confusing though. If Kakashi has Senju blood then why is chakra drain his biggest problem? Also, Kakashi almost never used his Mangekyou until very recently. As far as we know he didn't even discover that he had it until after the time skip, he is never shown using it and he didn't seem to even know about it when he faced Itachi (before the time skip). Eye sight deterioration seems to be a result of how often the user uses its power not how long they have had it. It took Itachi about a decade to lose his eyesight because he used his Mangekyou sparingly. Sasuke almost lost his eyesight after less than a year because he spammed in almost non-stop. Kakashi in the entire series has only used his mangekyou, maybe 15 to 20 times at most? Twice against Deidara, I believe 3 times against Pain, 2 times against Sasuke, I think 2 times during the bijuu fight (I would have to verify but its close to that), and then about a half dozen times while fighting Obito (but at that time he had Naruto to help him with the Kyuubi chakra). Kakashi definitely didn't use his Mangekyou that much, it probably just seems like a lot because his use of it has been spread throughout the series. When you actually count it up though, he really doesn't use it very much at all probably less than 10 times without the Kyuubi chakra

    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    Can Kakashi use the double Mangekyou ability of Susanoo (assuming that Obito's eyes can awaken it) ? Well, yes, but only if he has the support from the Naruto-Kyubi chakra, or it is used in conjuncture with someone else (like what Sasuke and Juugo did ?).
    That seems like more trouble than its worth though if he can only use his eyes when he has someone else around to help him. Kakashi would probably be better off without the Mangekyou in that case.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    The weapons that the Complete True Susanoo uses, are based on the type and the jutsu that were awakened by their eyes. For example:
    - Sasuke's 2 MS ability revolve around casting and manipulating the black flames, so of course, his CTS's weapons also revolve around it, by creating black flames in one hand and shooting them from the bow-shield form another,
    - Itachi's one MS ability revolved around imprisoning someone in a genjutsu in which he could freely manipulate the concept of time, thus his Sword also have similar abilities, while the Shield is able to repel all matter, in similar manner as Amaterasu is able to burn all matter.

    Then we have Madara's CTS, whose 2 swords are capable of extreme physical damage, easily destroying mountains in one swing, or perhaps, was it wind pressure or a kamaitachi created from it ? This might mean, that both of his 2 MS jutsu, revolve around enhancing or doing something to the physical body, perhaps having something with Taijutsu, thus creating swords of incomparable raw power.
    That's a reasonable theory but I still find it a bit odd that Itachi's weapons seem to be a lot better than the others. Madara's weapons seem to be the worst. Honestly, Madara's swords being able to cut through a mountain are nothing special considering the size of his Susanoo. Madara's Susanoo is at least 600 feet tall. It towers over the Meteors he summoned and it is at least bijuu size. The bijuu are all easily able to destroy mountains with Bijuu bombs and cause tornado's and typhoons with their tails. Creatures that are that size have strength to go along with it. Even a regular person can easily destroy an ant hill or blow away insects just by huffing and puffing or swinging their arms really fast. Madara's weapons seem relatively normal, just like average Taijutsu on a giant scale. If Sasuke was hundreds of feet tall I am sure he could easily slash through mountains just by swinging his sword.

    Spoiler!


    As you can see here. Madara's body isn't even as big as his Susanoo's eye. At that size power feats like cutting through a mountain are nothing special at all. With the Sword of Tetsuka Itachi was able to to dice up Orochimaru's Hydra easily and it towered over his Susanoo (Itachi's susanoo is maybe 30 ft)?. If it was scaled up to the size of Madara's Susanoo (which is at least 10 times that size) it would be on a totally different level because it has the Sealing technique on top of raw destructive power. Even if it just had the Sword of Tetsuka it would still be better, add the Yata Mirror and it is on different level. Madara's Susanoo has no apparent magical abilities, its just raw attack and defense.

    Spoiler!


    Sasuke's Enton arrows are pretty decent but they are basically just combining two Mangekyou techniques. Also, for someone who has Amaterasu the Enton arrow is still nothing special. I really don't see any advantage of Enton arrow over Amaterasu (aside from it possibly having more piercing power but even that is questionable since there are no feats to back it up). The long range of Sasuke's arrows is also nothing special because as we have seen the Sword of Tetsuka can stretch very far (although how far it can go is unclear).

    The way I see it is, if all three versions of Susanoo were to fight at the armored level (without legs). Itachi's Susanoo would win easily. The Yata Mirror would reflect all of Sasuke and Madara's Susanoo's long range attacks and the Sword of Tetsuka could simply seal them. We have already seen that a Susanoo Sword can pierce Susanoo's body as Tsunade used Madara's to do so. That means that only Itachi's Susanoo would be capable of blocking attacks from Susanoo Swords (with the Yata Mirror) and his sword is the only sword with magical sealing abilities. The Sword of Tetsuka and the Yata Mirror are clearly in a different class because they have magical abilities. Sasuke and Madara's Susanoo weapons are just big chakra weapons. My question remains why is that? I can only assume that it is because his weapons are not a natural part of Susanoo but rather ancient divine weapons that he obtained elsewhere and then equipped to his Susanoo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    It's also worth mentioning that Itachi said that along Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi, Sasanoo had awakened as the third and final jutsu within his eyes (on that same day):
    Spoiler!

    this basically confirms, that Susanoo is indeed a jutsu that comes directly from the MS eyes (it doesn't simply awaken from them, it awakens in them), thus it means that Madara had to use some other eyes or his own somehow to cast it, otherwise it is a plot-hole.
    Yeah I am still holding my breathe to see how Kishimoto is going to get himself out of that one. As you say based on the rules that have already established it seems pretty obvious that eyes should be required to use Susanoo. So hopefully Kishimmoto has thought this through.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greed-sama View Post
    Isn't the Moon's Eye Plan called the Infinite Tsukuyomi?
    The infinite Tsukuyomi is a part of the Moon's Eye Plan. The Juubi might be able to cast infinite Tsukuyomi without the moon but reflecting it onto the moon is the only way to be sure that it will be seen by everyone in the world. As big as the Juubi is, the moon is obviously much bigger and its pretty difficult to go through life without looking at the moon ever. So I assume Madara deciding to cast the Infinite Tsukuyomi on the moon was just his way of insuring that everyone would get caught in it.

  4. #54
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    Well, there are a few ways how Madara could have used the Susanoo without eyes, but if we were to take into consideration what he was saying in the previous chapter, perhaps he really did do the exact same thing that Itachi had done ? Remember the time that Itachi had implanted Amaterasu into Sasuke's eyes, even though his own eyes were already at their limit ? Remember what Madara was saying about being able to use Sasuke's eyes ? I think that he might have really done the same thing, implanting his own jutsu into Sasuke's eyes, so that it would have automatically activated under given conditions ? Though it would imply the Susanoo can be casted on any visible target just like Amaterasu.

    One has to wonder if one even needs to implant the MS jutsu into a Sharingan, perhaps normal eyes would also do (the eyes transform themselves into the caster's eyes anyway), or none at all ? In that case, the eyes of the Hashirama Face on Madara's body, might have been enough for one-shot spell of Susanoo, or he might have left a marker/tattoo with it somewhere on his body before his fake Edo eyes gave out ?

    If Madara was able to use Susanoo for a prolonged time or more times, I believe that he would have used it sooner (like against the sand bullets), since it really seemed like a one-shot jutsu left just in case.

    The time that he was shown bitting his own arm to the blood, might have been in preparation of that, since it wasn't explained why he even did that...


  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    Well, there are a few ways how Madara could have used the Susanoo without eyes, but if we were to take into consideration what he was saying in the previous chapter, perhaps he really did do the exact same thing that Itachi had done ? Remember the time that Itachi had implanted Amaterasu into Sasuke's eyes, even though his own eyes were already at their limit ? Remember what Madara was saying about being able to use Sasuke's eyes ? I think that he might have really done the same thing, implanting his own jutsu into Sasuke's eyes, so that it would have automatically activated under given conditions ? Though it would imply the Susanoo can be casted on any visible target just like Amaterasu.
    I think the idea of him using Sasuke's eyes seems a little far fetched since he was still generating Susanoo around his own body. When Itachi impanted Amaterasu it still came out of Sasuke's eyes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    One has to wonder if one even needs to implant the MS jutsu into a Sharingan, perhaps normal eyes would also do (the eyes transform themselves into the caster's eyes anyway), or none at all ?
    That sounds like a major stretch to me. That would basically be along the same lines as Madara being able to keep Susanoo without Eyes. Its just too much of a leap. Itachi being able to implant Amaterasu in Sasuke's eyes seemed feasibly because Sasuke is similar to Itachi, already had a sharingan, and because Itachi transferred the power into his eyes with his blood. Also it was specifically responding to another Sharingan. There were a lot of specific elements in that situation that lined up. If a Uchiha could just hex anyone's eyes to use Mangekyou powers at ideal moments in time it just seems like too much of a hack. If that were possible Madara could just hex all his Zetsu's and have them all unleash Mangekyou techniques whenever a tough ninja shows up. It creates way too many crazy possibilities if Madara could simply seal mangekyou techniques into any set of eyes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    In that case, the eyes of the Hashirama Face on Madara's body, might have been enough for one-shot spell of Susanoo, or he might have left a marker/tattoo with it somewhere on his body before his fake Edo eyes gave out ?
    I was thinking that it would be interesting if Madara had another sharingan implanted into the eyes of the Hashirama head on his chest but that also seems far fetched considering he got that face implanted by Kabuto. Clearly Kabuto wouldn't have had a set of Mangekyou around to use. I could see that happening down the road, with Madara pulling a Danzo and augmenting his body with multiple sharingan's but at the moment it doesn't seem likely.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    If Madara was able to use Susanoo for a prolonged time or more times, I believe that he would have used it sooner (like against the sand bullets), since it really seemed like a one-shot jutsu left just in case.
    I agree, I mentioned something similar in an earlier post. Madara had always counter projectile attack with Susanoo before so the fact that he waited to use Susanoo seems strange.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    The time that he was shown bitting his own arm to the blood, might have been in preparation of that, since it wasn't explained why he even did that...
    That's a good point. It was strange that he did that without any explanation. We have seen that a lot of techniques involve blood so that could definitely be related somehow. Its too vague to be sure of anything though. It was one of those moments that could be nothing or it could be an important detail. When Itachi put his blood into Sasuke's eye I thought it was just symbolic but it turned out to be an important technique. So Madara cutting himself could definitely be significant.

  6. #56
    Yesss... Rlinfamous's Avatar
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    I wonder if, using the Rinnegan and the black rods, Madara will use Hashirama to fight the Alliance.

  7. #57
    Scanlator POW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by janfeae View Post
    I may not have the explanation, but I do know one thing. Kishimoto sat down and drew this chapter, while keeping Madara's eyelids shut until the very last page. I don't think it was a blunder at all. I'm sure in the time it took him to draw Susanoo, and to review his drawings, he was aware that Madara's eyes were not in his sockets. There were times when we've called plothole in the past, and a few chapters, to 200+ chapters later, we were proven wrong.

    Have faith in the creator, and his writing ability. Things have been a little shaky here and there over the course of the past few months, but believe in the man responsible for this story. Question everything, but assume nothing my friends.

    Yeah I don't doubt that Kishi may have an explanation up his sleeve and it may have been purposely confusing us so he could reveal something big. Every other character seemed confused by Madara as well....

    - If the idea is that one only needs to awaken the MS to obtain Susnoo and it is the manifestation of their mental energies. The 2nd Hokage did explain that the Sharingan is the result of an alteration of energy in the uchiha brains reflected in their eyes. Thus the source is their mind.

    In my mind the reason why Amaterasu or Tsukuyomi are linked to Susanoo is because of what they represent.

    - Amaterasu is the ultimate fire technique that seems to alter the ying/yang ratio of fire element turning it black similar to a like a bijuu bomb.

    - Tsukuyomi Is one of the ultimate genjutsu that represents the spiritual world and darkness thus requires very powerful mental energies to perform


    Thus both are required to be able use Susanoo which requires incredible strong mental energies to project ones chakra and the skill to shape & manipulate them. Even the not fully formed Susanoo looks like its made flames.


    However tying it all back maybe it's because Madara has sage sensor abilties that can act as eyes to see that he can utilize Susanoo even without eyes. However I think there is drawback to using Susanoo without eyes....it's the same as using it with only a basic MS versus an EMS.


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  8. #58
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    I personally have no problem with eyeless Susanoo, once it has already been awakened. I can imagin that Sasuke or Itachi could summon or have summoned up their respective Susanoos even with their eyes closed.

    It dawns on me that perhaps Tsukuyomi is the only technique that requires eyes after being awakened, because as a visual Genjutsu, the caster has to make visual eye to eye contact with the victim, same with rudimentary Amaterasu. However Sasuke has been able to create Amaterasu weapons for his Susanoo, without the requirement for aiming with his eyes.

    So let me revisit a previous thought. The Chakra for MS comes from the brain of an Uchiha. Once awakened, Susanoo and Amaterasu (to a limited extent), can be summoned Around the body of the Uchiha casting it. Then Since Susanoo does not require focusing of the eyes, there should be a way for the Uchiha Casting Susanoo to surround himself with Susanoo even when he closes his eyes. If he can do it with eyes closed, he should also be able to do it blind. All it requires is Awakening, and Mastery.

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  9. #59
    The one and only Pure Logic's Avatar
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    The eyes reflect the power, they are not the power? Well then if that were the case then why does Nagato and Kakashi have the power? Are they keys to unlock people's inner power? Basically what I'm trying to say is... Are the Senju the doorway, and the Uchiha are the key to the future?

  10. #60
    Yesss... Rlinfamous's Avatar
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    I think Madara may be linked to at least Obito's eye via Zetsu. The chapter "Shift" has a nice split panel where Edo Madara's right Rinnegan eye (the same eye possessed by Black Zetsu) is seen right as Obito is forced to perform Rinne Tensei. It's as if, rather than Black Zetsu, it was Madara who forced Obito to preform Rinne Tensei. Perhaps there isn't even a difference, since Black Zetsu is a fragment of Madara's Will and shares a telepathic link. In essence, Madara may be able to access the powers of both Rinnegan if the Black Zetsu eye is effectively already transplanted (although I'm sure Madara would prefer to personally transplant it and would gain a benefit from doing so).

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