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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    He couldn't pull out the rods himself, for the same reason why Jiraya couldn't pull out the ones from his own body (the only one to do that so far was Naruto and he simply unleashed the bijuu back then). Remember, the rods disrupt the flow of chakra, so using jutsu or even moving is extremely limited (not to mention that since those rods are made by and from Madara, when they are used by Madara himself, those are probably even more powerful than when those are used by other characters).
    Thanks for the response. Still kind of weird because Hashirama looked like he was doing fine in the previous chapter - he still confident of winning. Then, when Madara got revived, he suddenly could not move.

    It is also strange that with Hashirama's capability, how could Madara get those rods into him the 1st place.

  2. #42
    The Heropon! Sirxxx's Avatar
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    My point is.... his eyes are not destroyed so the connection is still there. Just look how Obito and Kakashi could see out of each other eyes, there is a connection via charka. That's my guess. As long as his eyes remind in one piece, he's still able to use them...
    That's actually a really good point: Maybe as long as the eyes exist, one is able to do eye techniques. Hell, friggin Itachi (via Naruto) pulled off a Koto Amatsukamikaze(?) eye technique because an eye still existed from a shinobi who was long dead. I suppose it's certainly possible.

    Speaking of plot: Did we ever answer how Nagato found 12 extra Rinnegan (Christmas bonus pack?) to do his six days of Pain? How did he split the techniques from one another. Were the dead bodies just using imitation Rinnegans? Sorry if this is something I should already know.

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  3. #43
    Yesss... Rlinfamous's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sirxxx View Post


    That's actually a really good point: Maybe as long as the eyes exist, one is able to do eye techniques. Hell, friggin Itachi (via Naruto) pulled off a Koto Amatsukamikaze(?) eye technique because an eye still existed from a shinobi who was long dead. I suppose it's certainly possible.

    Speaking of plot: Did we ever answer how Nagato found 12 extra Rinnegan (Christmas bonus pack?) to do his six days of Pain? How did he split the techniques from one another. Were the dead bodies just using imitation Rinnegans? Sorry if this is something I should already know.
    Well, a few points:

    1. Itachi didn't manually activate Shisui's eye within Naruto. Shisui's eye was pre-programmed to activate in response to Itachi's Mangekyou. The intent was for it to automatically respond to Sasuke once Sasuke transplanted Itachi's eyes. So it's not quite the same as remote activation.

    2. I don't believe Nagato actually implanted the Rinnegan for his Paths. I believe that, upon becoming "Paths", they reflect Nagato's Rinnegan and act as proxies for his Jutsu. That's why no one could retrieve Rinnegan from the individual Paths.

    3. I agree with your point that, as long as the eyes exist, they can be used together. I think it's likely Madara can activate the Rinnegan that Black Zetsu is controlling (through Obito). Perhaps he could also use it in conjunction with his other Rinnegan, simply because they are "linked" like Kakashi and Obito's Sharingan... however, I find this latter part less likely, because both eyes ought to be in control of *someone* to be triggered. Even the Shisui eye was transplanted in Itachi's crow technique, pre-programmed by Itachi's will.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by boyceteoh View Post
    Thanks for the response. Still kind of weird because Hashirama looked like he was doing fine in the previous chapter - he still confident of winning. Then, when Madara got revived, he suddenly could not move.

    It is also strange that with Hashirama's capability, how could Madara get those rods into him the 1st place.
    I don't thinks its surprising. We have to remember that Madara is not the same as he was when he fought Hashirama all those years ago. The current Madara is on a much higher level. When Madara fought Hashirama before he didn't have the Wood Release or the Rinnegan or any of the other physical upgrades that came from transplanting Hashirama's cells. He didn't even have the black rods technique when he fought Hashirama in the past. Madara also lived long after Hashirama's death and probably learned a number of new tricks. Madara has been confident from the beginning, he even referred to fighting Hashirama as "playing". Madara has clearly surpassed Hashirama.

  5. #45
    Senior Member kallateroll's Avatar
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    Alright, I think sasuke, itachi, and Madara were the fallen Uchiha explained by Nidaime. Thoses three use the black flame i guess hell. I think they all can use tskyoumi, guidance out of hell. Im not sure of susano, maybe a weapon to fight out of hell or blindness. Itachi Physical blindness, madara spiritual blindness for adding harishama cell and not believing in himself, Sasuke natural blindness for not seeing through his ancestor massacre or through who Itachi really was and more.
    Obito and Sishui were the belove done the did take that route. Both had the power to evade, protect, and maybe even punish. Also their mangenkou did not take the path to Amatsura, Tskyoumi, or Susano.

    an interesting Sharigan abilities for Sasuke if he return to the good spiritually would a time countdown move. In other word he have five minute into the future, if he kill you five minute ahead time then from that second time will countdown from the current time prior to the five minute. The opponent vulnerable to all type of injury and battle scar.
    Last edited by Arbitrary; 12-15-2013 at 12:43 AM.

  6. #46
    Yesss... Rlinfamous's Avatar
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    I agree with the theory that an Uchiha's MS type is based on their personality or "spirit."

  7. #47
    Senior Member janfeae's Avatar
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    Hmm, well it is true that people like Danzo used the sharingan's of Uchiha who were long dead, but my gripe with that is Danzo's arm. Why do such a thing to your arm, when you can use a sharingan's power without them being physically connected to you?

    With that, in theory, couldn't Obito have awakened a Susanoo too? Or even Kakashi for that matter. The other eye was always intact. If we go with the, "They can be used because the eyes still exist in a physical plane" theory, why didn't Obito, a full blooded Uchiha, awaken Suasnoo at some point? After all, one of Madara's eyes was in ninja when he activated it. You need one eye for each MS technique, but both to use Susanoo. I'm sure it's correct in regards to having to have both eyes unscathed in order for it to work, but I think that theory opens up the possibility to legitimate plot-holes: While in this actual case, we just have a lack of information.

  8. #48
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    Pretty sure we'll see an Obito/Kakashi Susano'o. Seems foreshadowed by the repeated emphasis that the Sharingan is strongest as a pair.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rlinfamous View Post
    I agree with the theory that an Uchiha's MS type is based on their personality or "spirit."
    It's interesting, I originally assumed that Sasuke and Itachi's Mangekyou abilities were identical but aside from Amaterasu I guess their other abilities are different. Sasuke is able to use Enton with his right eye and casts Amaterasu with his left. He has shown no ability to use Tsukuyomi, although he does seem to be able to use Genjutsu that is above the standard sharingan level (as we saw when he fought Danzo). Itachi casts Amatersu with his right and Tsukuyomi with his left but he has shown no ability to use Enton (although he could extinguish Amatersu as seen when he fought Sasuke). Their Susanoos are also quite different, Sasuke's has a Bow and Arrow while Itachi's has the Sword of Tetsuka and the Yata Mirror. What I find odd is that the weapons of Itachi's Susanoo seem to be far superior to both Sasuke and Madara's weapons.

    Spoiler!


    So far Itachi's Susanoo seems way overpowered as a result of his weapons (Sasuke's bow and Madara's Swords aren't even close to as powerful). We have seen numerous counters to Amaterasu and the other Susanoo weapons but there is no apparent counter to the Sword of Tetsuka. Imagine if Madara had been fighting with the Sword of Tetsuka attached to his Susanoo. All of the Kages would be sealed. The Sword of Tetsuka was even able to seal Orochimaru's Hydra and Nagato easily. Tsunade was able to be impaled by Madara's Susanoo many times but she always regenerated. Tsunade was also able to save the other Kages many times with her healing techniques. Regeneration is useless against the Sword of Tetsuka as it seals anyone it pierces. The Yata Mirror is also presumably indestructible, Madara's Suanoo has no shield. The only weakness of Itachi's Susanoo is that it isn't as maneuverable because it doesn't have legs and it doesn't have the scale of Madara's Susanoo. Also Itachi couldn't use his Susanoo for very long unlike Madara and Sasuke who seem to be able to use theirs indefinitely with the EMS. So the question is how did Itachi obtain the divine weapons? Orochimaru said that he had been looking for them for many years but Itachi supposedly had them all along. So the it is a bit confusing. Are they Magical items or are they just another product of Susanoo? If they are a natural part of Susanoo, why are they seemingly so much better than the weapons that Sasuke and Madara have? Madara's sword's only apparent ability is to cut objects in the distance. But it has no other magical side effects it just does physical damage. The sword of Tetsuka is way better. Sasuke's arrows are like wise only able to cause physical damage unless he adds Amatarasu and even then it seems weak compared to the Sword of Tetsuka which can seemingly seal anything.

    Spoiler!


    It is also interesting that Madara has shown only one Mangekyou ability, even though Itachi said Susanoo is granted to those who awaken both Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi (As far as we have seen, Sasuke doesn't seem to have Tsukuyomi, so I assume it simply means two Mangekyou eyes, although it is interesting that Obito said that Susanoo is rare). Yet it is odd that Madara has never been shown using those powers even though I would think they would be ideally suited for fighting someone like Hashirama who relies heavily on wood release. Hashirama himself was surprised when Hashirama absorbed Amaterasu, so I don't think he is able to absorb it. We have seen how fast Amaterasu can destroy a forest and how fast it was able to take down a tailed beast. Those techniques seem ideal for taking care of Hashirama's Mokuton and his Wood Dragon abilities. Hashirama's wood dragon is basically like a tailed beast so it seems logical that if Madara had Amaterasu he would have used it. This leads me to wonder whether Madara had Amaterasu at all but if he didn't have it what are his other two abilities? I suspect that one of his abilities is what allowed him to escape death when he fought Hashirama. We have already seen that Shisui had Kotoamatsukami which seems capable of making a person believe whatever the user wants changing their goals completely (Itachi intended to have Naruto use it to make Sasuke want to protect Konoha). Madara might have a similar technique which makes the victim experience whatever he want them to. Madara might have been able to make Hashirama imagine Madara's death when in fact Madara took Hashirama's blood instead. We don't know how Madara survived or how he got Hashirama's cells without him noticing.

    Another strange thing is that all three versions of Susanoo have the ability to use the Yasaka Magatama. All the other weapons they have are different but they all seem to have that ability although they do each seem to use the Yasaka Magatama differently. Sasuke uses his with Enton. Itachi used 3 large ones together and Madara used a string of about a dozen. I assume they are all capable of basically the same uses though aside from maybe Sasuke's Enton version. All of them also seem to be able to use swords in their incomplete form that are able to cause physical damage.

    One more question that I have is whether or not Sasuke is now capable of using Itachi's techniques. Both already had Amaterasu and Susanoo but Sasuke still hasn't shown whether or not he can use Tsukuyomi. Sasuke said that he felt Itachi's power flowing into him but his abilities don't seem to be that different. Sasuke now seems to be able to use a legged Susanoo and his Susanoo now has bird like armor. He is also able to spam his Mangekyou techniques almost limitlessly, showing none of the negative side effects from when he fought the Kages and Danzo. He doesn't seem to have any of Itachi's unique abilities though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rlinfamous View Post
    Pretty sure we'll see an Obito/Kakashi Susano'o. Seems foreshadowed by the repeated emphasis that the Sharingan is strongest as a pair.
    This raises yet another question. Would Kakashi be able to use two sharingans? How would he handle the chakra drain (normally he limits it by keeping one eye covered)? How could he avoid going blind? I assume that Obito was able to retain his vision and spam his Mangekyou because he had Senju cells but there is no evidence that Kakashi has Senju blood. It's highly unlikely since low chakra has always been one of his biggest weaknesses. Kakashi already hinted that he is loosing his eyesight so even if he got both Mangekyou he would like lose both eyes unless he could somehow get Senju hashirama's cells implanted (which seems like a stretch since Danzou had a hard time doing it and had Orochimaru's help). Without Senju cells Kakashi couldn't handle the sharingan chakra draw and if he used the eyes for much longer he would doubtlessly go blind. As it is he should be reaching his limit with the Mangekyou anyway. He has been using Kamui like crazy during the war and so he should be getting close to losing to his limit. Kakashi might be better off without the sharingan. Yet again though the Manga doesn't make it clear specifically what the rules are.

    Also, how does the EMS transplant work? Are two pairs of Mangekyou merged together or is it a simple switch out? Could it be that Sasuke's Mangekyou is still sitting it a jar back at Madara's base? The ritual has never been explained which leaves a lot of questions. I hope Kishimoto is being vague on purpose so that he can have a meaningful reveal, rather than keeping it vague out of laziness.

    The differences between the different Mangekyou are very confusing, I really hope Kishimoto decides to make it clear what the differences are and which characters have which abilities. So far the only impressive thing about Madara's EMS is that his Susanoo is complete and now he seems to be able to use it without eyes adding to the confusion even more.

    I have a feeling that Sasuke will eventually evolve his Susanoo even further than Madara's. The closer to completion the Susanoo gets the more it resembles a Tengu. Tengu has both human and Avian characteristics. Sasuke's Susanoo in particular is very Avian in appearance. Tengu had wings so it makes sense to me that Susanoo will also eventually have wings. It would be the next logical upgrade since Sasuke and Madara's Susanoos are both able to generate legs. Sasuke evolving from a Snake into a Hawk could also be mirrored by the evolution of his Susanoo becoming more bird like and eventually gaining the ability to fly. If Sasuke were also able to obtain the Sword of Tetsuka and the Yata Mirror with a fully formed Susanoo that could fly he would be on a totally different level.
    Last edited by artifice; 12-15-2013 at 02:07 PM.

  10. #50
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rlinfamous View Post
    I agree with the theory that an Uchiha's MS type is based on their personality or "spirit."
    So, you are saying that Shisui was a lying and manipulating bastard at heart (basing on his MS jutsu that is) ?

    To me it seems more about what they have been excelling at since birth. You know:
    - Shisui excelling at Genjutsu obtained Genjutsu-type MS abilities,
    - Itachi excelling near equally at both Genjutsu and Ninjutsu got a Genjtsu-type and Ninjutsu-type ability,
    - Sasuke excelling at Ninjutsu, got only Ninjutsu abilities,
    - Obito excelling at Ninjutsu, also got Ninjutsu (space-time) abilities.

    Basically, the talents that they are born with, are emphasized by their MS jutsu.

    @artifice, actually it is suggested that Kakashi has quite a bit of Senju blood (at a few occasions at that), though he has the one from Tobirama's side rather than from Hashirama's. At the very least, Kakashi had activated his MS almost 20 years ago and have been actively using it for more than 1-3 year now (who knows how much he was using it during the time-skip ?), which means that his MS survived in a good condition much, much longer than that of Sasuke's and Itachi's (remember, the eye-sight deteriorates after the MS is awakened, even if the MS isn't used). For the long run, Kakashi had utilized his MS much more than Sasuke or Itachi theirs (Sasuke's didn't withstand even half a year, while Itachi's was able to hold out almost a decade, while rarely using it).

    Can Kakashi use the double Mangekyou ability of Susanoo (assuming that Obito's eyes can awaken it) ? Well, yes, but only if he has the support from the Naruto-Kyubi chakra, or it is used in conjuncture with someone else (like what Sasuke and Juugo did ?).

    The weapons that the Complete True Susanoo uses, are based on the type and the jutsu that were awakened by their eyes. For example:
    - Sasuke's 2 MS ability revolve around casting and manipulating the black flames, so of course, his CTS's weapons also revolve around it, by creating black flames in one hand and shooting them from the bow-shield form another,
    - Itachi's one MS ability revolved around imprisoning someone in a genjutsu in which he could freely manipulate the concept of time, thus his Sword also have similar abilities, while the Shield is able to repel all matter, in similar manner as Amaterasu is able to burn all matter.

    Then we have Madara's CTS, whose 2 swords are capable of extreme physical damage, easily destroying mountains in one swing, or perhaps, was it wind pressure or a kamaitachi created from it ? This might mean, that both of his 2 MS jutsu, revolve around enhancing or doing something to the physical body, perhaps having something with Taijutsu, thus creating swords of incomparable raw power.

    It's also worth mentioning that Itachi said that along Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi, Sasanoo had awakened as the third and final jutsu within his eyes (on that same day):
    Spoiler!

    this basically confirms, that Susanoo is indeed a jutsu that comes directly from the MS eyes (it doesn't simply awaken from them, it awakens in them), thus it means that Madara had to use some other eyes or his own somehow to cast it, otherwise it is a plot-hole.



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