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  1. #31
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    Well I gotta agree with your arguments Zero, but as you noted certain databook and formerly Kosher assumptions have been modified by the Author along the way.

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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    The Gun aspect is an important part of forming techniques (shooting) and techniques are used by utilizing chakra as energy source. En eye-jutsu is a jutsu that is used with/through eyes, while most normal jutsu, are used through hand-seals. The eye pattern itself might be like a seal pattern tattoo (like the summoning one) that one needs to cast some jutsu.

    So we have a bullet (chakra of certain types, properties etc.), a gun (through what is the jutsu coming/being used) and then the jutsu itself (the shooting process).

    In the same way as Orochimaru and Raikage couldn't use jutsu that revolved around hand-seals (when they couldn't use both of their hands), in the same way Madara shouldn't be able to use jutsu that revolve around eyes, without having any eyes at all...

    Then again, after the Databook proved to be a false source of information, not once was Susanoo called a doujutsu (I think ?) in the manga, only that one first needs to awaken 2 MS's doujutsu, in order to obtain Susanoo (so technically speaking it might really be something that awakens in their bodies thanks to other things awakening in their eyes).

    Naruto himself uses his own (special) body (and the seal?) as a medium (gun) to shoot (mold into a technique) the Bijuu mode. On the other hand, it seemed that Uchiha used their (special) eyes to use their doujtusu, so if Susanoo is a Doujutsu, then it can only be used through eyes. In similar manner, Madara needs a living body to become a Jinchuriki.
    On top of that the Bijuu are not techniques like Susanoo is, they are distinct entities with their own will and ability. Still for the user to control them there must be a bond. In the can of Naruto he has the Kyuubi sealed in him, if that seal were to be removed there would be a specific consequence. If the Kyuubi were ripped out of Naruto or the seal were to be completely removed it would be stupid if Naruto retained its powers. Madara using Susanoo without the Mangekyou would be like Naruto using the Kyuubi's chakra without having it sealed in him.

    The whole purpose of Madara's Eternal Mangekyou (so far) has been the Susanoo. As I mentioned before he hasn't been shown using any other Mangekyou abilities, so for him to use Susanoo without his Eternal Mangekyou, it makes the Mangekyou meaningless. Whether it can be explained with some other connection or not, that fact remains. Building up the Eternal Mangekyou as something of extreme importance only to say that its really not even needed is ridiculous because it defeats the purpose that the eyes had. If loosing ones eyes doesn't even cost the user the most powerful ability that the eyes gave them it totally cheapens the loss. It also creates an absurd loophole. If Uchiha retain Susanoo, even after loosing their eyes then why didn't Madara's brother just surgically implant some new eyes to get his vision back and keep using Susanoo like a boss. If he still had Susanoo he would still probably be one of the most powerful ninja's around (As we saw with Sasuke, spamming Susanoo deals with most opponents quite effectively). It almost completely devalues the Mangekyou and the need for the EMS. By that logic a Uchiha with the regular Mangekyou who couldn't get the EMS would be better off stealing the regular sharingan from someone else because they would get to keep Susanoo and still have their eyesight and all the regular sharingan benefits. It ruins the order of things.

    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    Well I gotta agree with your arguments Zero, but as you noted certain databook and formerly Kosher assumptions have been modified by the Author along the way.
    Just because the author modifies the canon doesn't make it reasonable. Writers ruin good stories all the time because they don't think things through. I'm not saying that is the case here, Kishimoto might totally turn this around and explain it all brilliantly. I am just saying he's in dangerous territory. I have seen many other good stories go bad because the writer decides to make careless decisions about the details like this. Kishimoto has done a really good job of keeping plot holes and inconsistencies down to a minor level so I would really hate to see him ruin it now.

  3. #33
    The one and only Pure Logic's Avatar
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    From what I gathered his eyes are still active, and are not destroyed.... I wonder if there is still a link between them. Remember how Obito and Kakashi were able to see what each other were seeing.... the connection is still there. So with that being said... I wonder if Madara can see what Obito and Black Zetsu is doing.

  4. #34
    Senior Member janfeae's Avatar
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    A Wild Madara appeared


    Pokemon Trainer Shinobi Alliance sent out Bijuu


    The wild Madara is focusing energy


    Bijuu used Fuuton Sasanda--The Wild Madara is paralyzed, it may not be able to move.


    Madara used Compliment no Jutsu...But it failed...


    The Wild Madara flinched


    Bijuu used Ping Pong Paddle


    Hit (7) times!


    It's Super Effective!!


    Pokemon Trainer Ninja Alliance used Ultra Ball


    Aww..The Wild Madara appeared to be caught!


    Bijuu used Tailed Beast Slap


    ....A critical hit...It's not very effective..


    The wild Madara's Magical Cells ability prevents decapitations



    Madara used Rinnegan

    ________________
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    ...Failed to get away safely!!!






    How I saw the chapter lol

  5. #35
    Yesss... Rlinfamous's Avatar
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    I love it, Janfeae! Wonder if Madara's got what it takes to catch 'em all?

  6. #36
    shinobi
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    Well, it still doesn't explain why would Hashirama hang around and not pull the rods off himself before Madara revived himself.

  7. #37
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by boyceteoh View Post
    Well, it still doesn't explain why would Hashirama hang around and not pull the rods off himself before Madara revived himself.
    He couldn't pull out the rods himself, for the same reason why Jiraya couldn't pull out the ones from his own body (the only one to do that so far was Naruto and he simply unleashed the bijuu back then). Remember, the rods disrupt the flow of chakra, so using jutsu or even moving is extremely limited (not to mention that since those rods are made by and from Madara, when they are used by Madara himself, those are probably even more powerful than when those are used by other characters).



  8. #38
    Senior Member kallateroll's Avatar
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    I'm going on a limb an say that the fight between Sasuke and Bee was exactly what Sasuke wanted. He let bee blow his chest off to gain Juugo gene and let be stab him to gain Karin Uzumaki gene. The first plan was to see if he can push his mangenkou further, he display that by cooling amatsura off the 8 tail and Karin. Plus, he gain both of their gene which probably lead to a maturation of the sharingan.

    I think the eternal mangenkou is overrated. I lose my sight and I can regain my sight through a manifestation of another eyes which create the eternal mangenkou. But, I can susano without the any sharigan so going was not a dis advantage if I can protect my self with my own spiritual energy. Out of chakra make no sense, it only strength your shield.
    Last edited by Arbitrary; 12-13-2013 at 02:18 AM.

  9. #39
    Senior Member janfeae's Avatar
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    I may not have the explanation, but I do know one thing. Kishimoto sat down and drew this chapter, while keeping Madara's eyelids shut until the very last page. I don't think it was a blunder at all. I'm sure in the time it took him to draw Susanoo, and to review his drawings, he was aware that Madara's eyes were not in his sockets. There were times when we've called plothole in the past, and a few chapters, to 200+ chapters later, we were proven wrong.

    Have faith in the creator, and his writing ability. Things have been a little shaky here and there over the course of the past few months, but believe in the man responsible for this story. Question everything, but assume nothing my friends.

  10. #40
    The one and only Pure Logic's Avatar
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    My point is.... his eyes are not destroyed so the connection is still there. Just look how Obito and Kakashi could see out of each other eyes, there is a connection via charka. That's my guess. As long as his eyes remind in one piece, he's still able to use them...

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