Agreed, I think the difference is that Nagato only had the Rinnegan not the other attributes of the Sage's body. Remember Nagato was just an Uzumaki with the Rinnegan implanted. Madara is a full blooded Uchiha who has implanted Hashirama's cells and he awakened those powers. It is only natural that Madara would possess physical abilities far beyond Nagato. Both Nagato and Obito only possessed a fraction of what Madara has.
Originally Posted by Zero
Madara doesn't even have the Rinnegan at the moment so his current abilities are far more likely tied to the Sage's body. Even Hashirama is able to use his Mokuton to absorb chakra from others so it makes sense that Madara would have obtained physical abilities above that. Just as Uchiha can only obtain the Eternal Mangekyou without Senju blood it, it is logical that the Senju would also have physical limitations without Uchiha cells. Only with with both bloodlines can the full powers of the Sage's body and Spirit/Eyes be obtained.
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Could there be a level beyond the Sage that Madara is looking for? His goals seem kinda like... Your Dead why worry about it.
It's really difficult to say without knowing what the limits of the Sage's powers actually were. Sofar from everything that has been shown it seems like a save assumption that the Sage was far beyond anyone we have seen. Yet there is still a lot about him that we don't know. For example, it is interesting that Naruto and Minato's bijuu aura resembles the Sage. In that form they seem to possess unusual abilities that even Madara and Obito did not possess. It is also interesting to note, that the Sage of Six Path's might not have possessed Susanoo, the Time Space techniques, or the other Mangekyou abilities. Madara commented that Sasuke's Mangekyou pattern says something about his abilities. If there are in fact many different types of Mangekyou, it is possible that the Mangekyou is a mutation not just a devolved Rinnegan. If that is true it is possible that the Mangekyou might have abilities that even the Sage himself did not possess. From what we have seen so far only Obito and Kakashi possess Kamui. Even Madara, who awakened the Rinnegan doesn't seem to have it, or amaterasu (although we still don't know what all of his Mangekyou powers are). On top of that Itachi seems to be the only person who possessed the Sword of Tetsuka and the Yata Mirror (two of the most powerful items in the series so far). So the question is, where did he get those gifts? Even compared to Madara's perfect Susanoo, those items seem to be quite strong but why doesn't he have them as well? I suspect that Itachi might have obtained those powers by studying the Uzumaki clan.
Originally Posted by Pure Logic
I think it is very interesting that the Uzumaki clan seems to be the clan that possesses the greatest similarity to the Sage. They seem to have possessed many interesting spiritual techniques. The chakra chains, the Dead Demon Seal, powerful barrier techniques and sealing techniques. The Sword of Tetsuka and the Yata Mirror might have come from that clan originally. Orochimaru and Zetsu were both knowledgeable of those items so they must have been used at some point in the past but obviously Madara is not the one who had them. The Sword of Tetsuka is an incredibly powerful Sealing technique, and the Yata Mirror is quite possibly the most powerful barrier technique we have seen (although its hard to tell without having it tested against the strongest techniques, but Zetsu said that it can turn back any technique and it made Itachi invincible while he used it). We know that Itachi studied the history of the clans, that is why he had such wisdom at a very young age. Perhaps Itachi discovered those Spiritual items in a similar way to how Orochimaru discovered the Dead Demon Seal (by searching the Ruins of the Whirlpool village).
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Interesting the Uzumaki Clan have some interesting relics, I wonder if they were owned or created by the Sage. I also wonder how long the Sage lived, and when did he have children, and what were there fates I wonder if that will be answered in a flash back. I having a feeling within Naruto's mind maybe through Kurama, Naruto will learn more about the Sage's past.
First of all, I think u guys are undermining Nagato strength. I'll take a mobile Nagato with his six pain. I'll have mobile Nagato with great affinity to all element, during Jariaya training.
Next, I think Sasuke might unlocked Hagoromo's first son doujutsu, the Uzumaki like spiral. In regard to having Karin and Juugo chakra within him. I would prefer a different path from Madara, since he doesn't have the senju blood but Uzumaki blood or DNA within him.
So I predict naruto would obtain if not rebirth the remaining bijuu chakra within him. In Madara current state I'll have to say all he able to get is the yin chakra from the tailed beast.
Who is undermining Nagato's strength? I don't think Nagato is weak at all, he is one of the most powerful characters in the series. He defeated the entire leaf village alone. Nagato defeated Jiraiya without even using his full strength. Even his defeat was more an issue of his psychological state. If he had listened to Konan and not pushed himself so hard so fast he probably would have been able to win.
Originally Posted by kallateroll
With that said though, its important to remember that Nagato got the majority of his power from Madara. Having the Rinnegan is what allowed him to have an affinity for all the elements (based on Jiraiya's explanation) and it is what gave him the six paths and the other extremely powerful abilities that he used to destroy the Leaf. Just like Obito, Nagato has Madara to thank for the vast majority of his power. In the case of Obito he had his own Sharingan and in the case of Nagato he had his high chakra level and life force. Nagato improved his skills thanks to Jiraiya's training but without the Rinnegan he probably would have been even weaker than Yahiko.
Saying that Nagato is inferior to Madara is not to say he is weak it is just to acknowledge the order of things. Madara defeated the 5 Kage as if they were nothing. Madara (once he gets his Rinnegan back) is like Itachi, Nagato, and Hashirama all rolled into one. He was the strongest Uchiha even before he got the Rinnegan or the Hashirama's cells/Wood Release. Madara also has more battle experience than anyone else. Madara even without the Rinnegan makes Sasuke look like a child.
I agree. Orochimaru said that Sasuke is the only one who has the potential to surpass Madara, and I suspect there is a specific reason for that. Orochimaru is a man of science, he doesn't judge things on a whim. I believe that Madara missed something in his attempt to replicate Hagaromo's power. Orochimaru has spent his life studying all of the bloodlines, not just the Senju and Uchiha. Orochimaru was able to make a fairly accurate hypothesis about Madara obtaining the Rinnegan and his full power even before Madara was resurrected. Orochimaru also seems to know a fair bit about the Uzumaki clan and the Whirlpool village.
Originally Posted by kallateroll
Also, remember what Kabuto said:
He said that he was closer to the Sage of Six Path's than anyone in the world. Why do you think he said that? At that time he didn't have the Sharingan, the Rinnegan, or even Senju DNA. Yet Kabuto obviously knows a lot about the Sage and what powers he possessed. He also knew the secret behind Tobi's identity. He knew that Tobi had the Rinnegan, the Mangekyou Sharingan, and the Senju bloodline but still he claimed to be the one closest to the Sage. I think that is because he understood the fundamental nature of the Sage's power. As Kabuto said he had the rules and principals of the natural world stored within him.
It is also interesting to note that Kabuto claimed that he needed a living Uchiha with the Eternal Mangekyou. If he really just needed the Rinnegan, Kabuto could have probably defeated Obito and took his. After all, on top of his own incredible power, he also had the Edo Tensei army, which at that time was far more powerful than Obito's force. Kabuto didn't side with Obito because he needed to, the war was in his best interest at that time. Kabuto needed Sasuke above all else because Sasuke is the only one in a position to truly complete the bloodline. With Sasuke, Kabuto could put all of Orochimaru's knowledge into practice to recreate the bloodline in its perfect form.
Kabuto, Obito and Orochimaru, all believed that Sasuke was the one person who could be used to counter Madara. Yet, so far, Madara with the Rinnegan has everything that Sasuke has and much much more. So the reason for Sasuke being able to surpass him must have come from Sasuke having some potential that Madara doesn't have. Obito, Orochimaru, and Itachi all attempted to force Sasuke to his limits while at the same time protecting him. They need him to evolve his eyes and powers in a specific way, to evolve him.
As you mentioned, I think the Uzumaki clan may be the missing link. There have been many hints that the Uzumaki clan are also descended of the Sage somehow (or possibly his mother). They possess extreme vitality and chakra. They also seem to be the ideal hosts for both the Rinnegan (as we saw with Nagato) and the Bijuu (as we see with Naruto, Kushina, and Mito). We also know that the bloodline of the Sage has probably been broken up between more than just the Uchiha and Senju because the Gold and Silver brothers were also said to be descendants of the Sage. Another interesting point is that the Senju clan doesn't seem to be pure. Of all the Senju descendants of the modern age only Hashirama has the wood release. Orochimaru spent years trying to recreate Hashirama's power. Madara was only able to transplant Hashirama's cells into himself. By the sounds of things he couldn't even use the Wood Release until Kabuto augmented his body. It is also interesting to note that Kabuto was able to increase the power of the Zetsu clones by using Yamato (the product of Orochimaru's experiments). Another interesting point is that while Madara expected something to happen as soon as he implanted Hashirama's cells, he had to wait until near the end of his life before awakening the Rinnegan. I think those are all hints that Madara didn't quite know what he was doing and there was something missing from the equation.
I think that Orochimaru may have found a better way of recombining the bloodlines in a more pure form. Perhaps by using more than just the Senju blood alone. If the Uchiha and Senju clans are not pure then perhaps we have never even seen the true power of each clan. I suspect that the Elder brother hand an Eye even more powerful than the Eternal Mangekyou and the Younger Brother had powers beyond even Hashirama's. The bloodlines were pure in them but they have been diluted over the generations. I think that Orochimaru knows that and he intends to use that knowledge to recreate that power in its pure form.
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The two children of the Sage, there children could of split into different clans like. The First Son, his two children "If he had two Children" could of had the Uchiha and Hyuga or "Uzumaki" Clan and the 2nd Son could of had two children "Senju and "Uzumaki "Or Hyuga" since they both of DNA from the Sage. Just saying it would make some sense on why Madara chose Nagato to use his eyes.
Definitely, there are a number of clans that may also be related to the Sage in some way. For example, I always thought that Kimimaro's bloodline seemed more a long the lines of the perfect body, than Hashirama's does. Kimimaro was able to survive extreme physical damage and he could shape shift his bones and change their density and strength to be harder than steel (he even cut through shurikens with them. He was also able to fight Juugo into submission without taking any damage. Hashirama's powers are more impressive than Kimimaro's but they don't really seem to be related to his body, only physical energy. It is also interesting to remember that after Orochimaru failed to take Itachi's body, his second choice was Kimimaro. Its interesting that he would chose Kimimaro over someone like Yamato who was the closest thing to Hashirama at that time. I think it is quite possible that the Younger Son had far more than just the Mokuton and high chakra.
Originally Posted by Pure Logic
The Younger Son was said to have inherited three things, the Sage's body, his life force and his physical energy. That makes me think of three distinct clans. No one has ever said that the Senju had long lives, they had very strong chakra but they don't seem to live any longer than anyone else. When I think of the body, I think of Kimimaro, his body seems to be the strongest physically, he decimated a Taijutsu expert and was also able to survive incredible damage against Gaara, even with his illness. The strongest life force is obviously, the Uzumaki, their blood can heal a person's wounds (as seen with Karin) and they can survive Bijuu extraction (as seen with Kushina) and we have been told their village was called"The Village of Longevity". The strongest physical energy is the Senju, as we have seen Hashirama's raw physical power is unparalleled and seems to be able to boost all other powers. All three of these clans combined would fit the idea of the ideal body far more than Hashirama does alone. This would also explain what Kimimaro said about him being the one closest to the Sage of Six Path's. Kabuto was a Sage who also had Kimimaro's bloodline and the Uzumaki bloodlines infused into his body.
The same could also be said of the Uchiha. The Byakugan has certain powers that the sharingan does not have. It is also interesting to note that all members of the Hyuuga clan have the Byakugan not just some as is the case with the Uchiha. If the Hyuuga are derived from the Uchiha then why would they have certain advantages? I think it might be because the the Hyuuga are the result of a merger of Uchiha and Uzumaki or Uchiha and Senju. It is also interesting to note that the Hyuuga are also Taijutsu experts and seem to be the only clan that can produce chakra from every part of their bodies. This power is the result of extreme chakra control that no other clan seems to possess. Another interesting thing to observe is that not all Mangekyou powers are the same. This mean that either the Uchiha's Eyes have evolved and now have powers that the Sage and his son did not have or it could also mean that the Sage and his Elder Son once had all of those powers, an eye that is far more powerful than the Eternal Mangekyou. Imagine a person with all of the Sharingan powers we have seen, all the Byakugan powers. A person with Kamui, Amaterasu, Tsukuyomi, Susanoo, the copy abiliy, the genjutsu, the predictive ability, the ability to see the chakra circulation system, see through solid objects, see 10km into the distance, see 360 degrees. A eye like that would be at least on par with the current Rinnegan.
I suspect that the Sage's Sons had powers far beyond what Madara and Hashirama had when they fought. Imagine Hashirama with Kimimaro's bloodline and the Uzumaki life force. I suspect that is closer to what the Younger Son was like. Imagine Madara with Kamui, Amaterasu, Tsukiyomi, the Byakugan abilities and Hyuuga chakra control. That is what I suspect the Elder son might have been like.
I think a big part of the next arc will involve learning about the other clans. We still know almost nothing about the Elder Son and the Younger Son and we still know very little about the Whirlpool village. All three of those are extremely important parts of the story. Obito said that he sees Sasuke and Naruto as the new versions of Sage's sons. I think that Sasuke and Naruto will each learn more about their ancestors and gain abilities that are close to their origins.
I don't understand why was Hashirama immobilized when Madara was revived. Anyone?