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  1. #31
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    I think we're going to find that when it comes to Reishi that's under the control of a strong individual, the Quincy won't have free reign to hijack that as freely as they otherwise might. I'd suspect that if a Quincy attempts to take the Reishi of a Banki it would probably have interesting results.

    Question, If Hollow reiatsu is bad for quincies, how could Opie literaly absorb Allon's body and not suffer any consequences.


    EDIT: Went back and re-read chapter 552. Quincies are not afraid of Hollow Reiatsu, it more specific to Arrancar's Ressurection. So Basically a Hollowified Bankai is the same as a Resurrection.
    Last edited by paulbee; 10-27-2013 at 11:32 PM.

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  2. #32
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    Technically speaking, we don't know how Holy Complete Form (HCF) actually works. We know that Arrancars seal their powers in the shape of swords (so basically they limit their power using their own strength); we know that Shinigami uses Zanpakutou to draw the power that is within them (that power can still crush them, if uncontrolled); we know that the Sanrei Glove (that allows Quincy Final Form - QFF) puts shackles over Quinces (limits their powers) and then by training with those shackles on, they rise their power(at least 7 days), that when the time comes to break them, Quinces gain immeasurable amounts of power, but since there is no longer anything limiting them artificially, they burn themselves up in that power (since they never learned to control it), thus loosing it at the end (thus it works differently from the ones above).

    QFF and HCF are similar, but different. While both seem to use an outside tool (so far it was clearly shown only in Opie's case) in the form of glove to activate it, the activation itself differs (in QFF, one needs to physically remove/break it, while in HCF, the glove activates/breaks from user's thought alone, so even a fully imprisoned Quincy, like Can Du, can still activate it). The wings in HCF are mainly a decoration (well they seem to be able to fly and block with them, in HCF the halo seems to be the main point where particles are gathered), while in QFF, the wing serves as a point where particles are gathered and condensed (HCF form seems only capable of collecting-subjugating?). In HCF, the user can specifically chose where to gather the particles (like for example at the tip of the blade), while in QFF the user can only gather them on wing (those seem then to be condensed and reconfigured) and then draw upon from them. The armor/clothes themselves are different (in QFF they have more solid and complete form, while in HCF they seem like energy or hard light kind of thing). Both forms seem to rise the Quincy's power over the limits. So far, the Gun-ritter proved that HCF allows one to safely enter and exist this mode, even while in the middle of the fight (or taking a hit, being imprisoned, immobilized, damaged etc.). HCF also allows for mutation of the user's body.

    Another thing is that Opie called QFF "fragile" (pretty funny seeing how the gear in QFF looks more solid than the one in HCF ), we don't know what he meant by that. He might meant that attaining this mode through Sanrei Glove is highly prone to failure (seeing as what the training actually entails), that achieving QFF is highly unlikely. Another possibility is that it is prone to breaking after activating. Another thing, might be that the power can be easily lost after using it (which would suggest that it is possible to safely get out of that form, which would perhaps explain why Souken didn't want to throw it away). Souken himself mentions that: "...one will get burned if he wields a flame too great to control.", also suggesting that sustaining the QFF and preserving one's own power after using it, depends more on the user's capability to control it (he still mentions that one will lose his power, but the mentioned phrase and the fact he denied HCF in favor of QFF, suggests that another possibility exist). Then there is Ryuken who mentions that his (Ryuken's) powers don't disappear as easily as Uryu's (which actually might suggest that only impure Quincy lose their power in QFF, but that's hard to say how far Kubo was thinking forward at that time ). At this point I can't be sure if what was shown/told at the beginning of the series, still holds true as to now.

    Worth mentioning is also that QFF is a bit similar to FGT, in that sense that both are final, both create a mixture of solid clothes/armor with energy linked up to it and that both rise the user's power beyond limits. What's more, it's possible that both were created by Bach... well I mean Bach knows how QFF works and Ichgio, technically speaking, learned it from Inner Bach (since foremost he came to Inner Bach (Innach ?) to ask for what is FGT and Bach knew about it, but seeing as Bach himself seemingly didn't know about Kuro-getsuga, yet that he knew about FGT, seems quite fishy). He perhaps reverse-engineered QFF and created the FGT (shouldn't be hard, especially seeing as Ichigo is partially Quincy). Of course the moment that Ishin actually proves that he can also use it, would make this point invalid, but for now, perhaps not so much since it could be a wordplay/workaround, used so that Ichigo wouldn't realize certain things at that point in time.

    Perhaps, one could say that QFF to HCF, is like cheetah to an antelope. While cheetah's max speed surpasses that of antelope's, the cheetah's body temperature quickly elevates when running and thus on a longer distances it looses to antelopes (the cheetah needs to cool down). Of course, since there is still a lot that we don't know about those forms, there is no need to take this comparison seriously (especially seeing as SRs perceive HCF as evolution of QFF, though that might not be the case).

    BTW, I just noticed that at chapter 126 Uryu looses his Quincy powers and 100 chapter later, at 226, he regains them .



  3. #33
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    I do not think Bach created FGT. Recall that Ichigo's Dad told him to go inside his inner world and ask Zangetsu about Final Getsuga Tensho (FGT).

    Isshin already knew that Zangetsu (which ever one, real or fake), would not want to teach Ichigo the FGT technique. Btw I think Old Man Zangetsu (fake) was able to tap into and acquire all knowledge that The Real Zangetsu would have had, since the two have been connected at least since Ichigo learnt to use his mask by training with the Vizards, and even before then.

    In any case, the fact that Isshin knew FGT and told Ichigo to ask Zangetsu about it while they were inside the Dagai, tend to indicate that this means that it is a Shiba Clan Ability, not a Quincy ability.
    Last edited by paulbee; 10-28-2013 at 01:11 AM.

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  4. #34
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    I do not think Bach created FGT. Recall that Ichigo's Dad told him to go inside his inner world and ask Zangetsu about Final Getsuga Tensho (FGT).

    Isshin already knew that Zangetsu (which ever one, real or fake), would not want to teach Ichigo the FGT technique. Btw I think Old Man Zangetsu (fake) was able to tap into and acquire all knowledge that The Real Zangetsu would have had, since the two have been connected at least since Ichigo learnt to use his mask by training with the Vizards, and even before then.

    In any case, the fact that Isshin knew FGT and told Ichigo to ask Zangetsu about it while they were inside the Dagai, tend to indicate that this means that it is a Shiba Clan Ability, not a Quincy ability.
    Would a final technique of a noble clan really have such pitiful name with only final added to it from their normal one (you would expect a grander name) ? Also, if it really was a technique of a Clan, then why was it taught by a Zanpakutou/Inner Bach, instead of a proper clan member (or was it ? kukukukuku) ? It does seem fishy either way, not to mention it was quite vague from the beginning.

    Another thing to take note of is that Ishin knows Urahara, not to mention that Ishin does know most of his vital informations from Urahara (plus other, like how to heal humans etc.).

    FGT is quite likely, a workaround name. It was used to go around any notions that would make Ichigo realize certain things, but seeing as Ichigo already knew about Ishin being a Shinigami... there was no point in hiding that he belonged to any clan, rather if it was even meant to force Ichgio to believe that it had something to do with his father, he wouldn't think that it came from his mother...



  5. #35
    The one and only Pure Logic's Avatar
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    Actually I think FGT was a move Bach stole from Isshin, because each person has there own special moves, and I don't think clans matter. Isshin knew Ichigo was part Qunicy, and most likely bach was the person filling him with lies n' stuff. I think this was Isshin way of killing two birds with one stone, giving his son a normal life, and defeating Aizen. Because how did Isshin know about it? He's never used it.

  6. #36
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    Would a final technique of a noble clan really have such pitiful name with only final added to it from their normal one (you would expect a grander name) ? Also, if it really was a technique of a Clan, then why was it taught by a Zanpakutou/Inner Bach, instead of a proper clan member (or was it ? kukukukuku) ? It does seem fishy either way, not to mention it was quite vague from the beginning.

    Another thing to take note of is that Ishin knows Urahara, not to mention that Ishin does know most of his vital informations from Urahara (plus other, like how to heal humans etc.).

    FGT is quite likely, a workaround name. It was used to go around any notions that would make Ichigo realize certain things, but seeing as Ichigo already knew about Ishin being a Shinigami... there was no point in hiding that he belonged to any clan, rather if it was even meant to force Ichgio to believe that it had something to do with his father, he wouldn't think that it came from his mother...
    Quote Originally Posted by Pure Logic View Post
    Actually I think FGT was a move Bach stole from Isshin, because each person has there own special moves, and I don't think clans matter. Isshin knew Ichigo was part Qunicy, and most likely bach was the person filling him with lies n' stuff. I think this was Isshin way of killing two birds with one stone, giving his son a normal life, and defeating Aizen. Because how did Isshin know about it? He's never used it.
    FGT may not be a "CLAN" Technique, but it certainly is a Family Technique as relating to Both Ichigo and Isshin, Both of them Have FGT, both have fire type Zanpakutous and both Zanpakutous have similar names. (Engetsu= Isshin, Zangetsu = Ichigo)

    Spoiler!

    Both Isshin and Ichigo have FGT

    There is no way to read chapter 408-409 without accepting that Isshin had FGT before Ichigo, and he taught it to his son. True, other Shiba clan members might not have FGT, but Father and Son certainly do/did.

    I suppose that OMZ aka Juha Bach could have copied the FGT from Isshin while Isshin was using his reiatsu to suppress The Hollow from killing Masaki, but I don't think any Shinigami can pull off an FGT. In other words, You can't be taught or learn this, you have to have it in your DNA/Reiatsu.

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  7. #37
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pure Logic View Post
    Actually I think FGT was a move Bach stole from Isshin, because each person has there own special moves, and I don't think clans matter. Isshin knew Ichigo was part Qunicy, and most likely bach was the person filling him with lies n' stuff. I think this was Isshin way of killing two birds with one stone, giving his son a normal life, and defeating Aizen. Because how did Isshin know about it? He's never used it.
    Well, the QFF was thrown away 200 years ago, while we don't really know when it was implemented, so it's not like one could definitely say no (especially seeing as Shinigami had no info about QFF until Uryu used it)... well, it is possible that they copied it after witnessing it 1000 years ago, from an Shiba ancestor (assuming that it indeed belongs to the Shiba) and 200 years ago moved to HCF, or perhaps it was the other way around (well the Shiba were one of the noble houses seemingly thanks to their dimensional transportation services).

    Still, it is interesting that Bach and Ichigo regained their powers, by respectively pouring into them each of their respective powers.

    The way that FGT works also reminds a bit of the Slave-something that Opie used and fused with the monster (since the power of the Bankai was seemingly reconfigured, absorbed and then used up)... then there is Bach that might have specifically taken a Bankai for his own version of FGT (assuming that he would still only loose the Shinigmi - Bankai power), especially since he might have connection with the Inner Bach in Ichigo.


    @Paul, in the mangastream version, Ishin says "these moves" (referring many techniques, not one), perhaps applying it to the fact that Zanpakutou don't want to teach any moves in Bankai form and all are wild in their nature in that state (seems quite right seeing how long it takes to master the Bankai compared to Shikai):
    Spoiler!


    Also, this phrase might be interesting:
    Spoiler!

    "...you need to journey through those 1000 of years that you have yet to touch..." and we learned that Ichigo went to speak with Inner Bach that is over 1000 years old. Quite interesting, don't you think ? Since it might refer the 1000 years of Quincy power and experience that Ichigo have yet to touch, since he technically already touched upon his Shinigami and Hollows power.
    Last edited by Zero; 10-28-2013 at 03:35 AM.



  8. #38
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    @Zero,

    The previous page makes it clear that Isshin was talking about the Meditation Stance.

    Spoiler!


    Frankly, Isshin wanted to teach his son Final Getsuga, something that he also had, but Ichigo had not being meditating right, and was unable to accomplish a meditation technique that was 1000yrs old.

    I really think This was definitely a Family Techniques because of similarity between Father and Son.

    I am not perfect and I defy you to prove otherwise
    Growing Old Gracefully is an Oxymoron ... Mostly Moron !

  9. #39
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    @Zero,

    The previous page makes it clear that Isshin was talking about the Meditation Stance.

    Spoiler!


    Frankly, Isshin wanted to teach his son Final Getsuga, something that he also had, but Ichigo had not being meditating right, and was unable to accomplish a meditation technique that was 1000yrs old.

    I really think This was definitely a Family Techniques because of similarity between Father and Son.
    Seeing how far Aizen actually analyzed Shinigami, Hollow and their connections, it's hard to imagine that he would have omitted a technique that allows one to fuse with his Zanpakutou. Rather, the least analyzed subject by him, actually seems to be Quincy, thus it would be reasonable to surprise him with a Quincy technique.

    One page says that this stance was created over 1000 of years ago, so the next page about Ichigo reaching those 1000 of years shouldn't be repeating what was said on the previous page. It was developed to communicate with one's sword, but it obviously can be used to communicate with one's other powers, as it was shown.

    Depending on the actual wording, it might mean a bit different things, but basing it solely on Mangastream version, Ichigo should have already been touching (and journeying) those 1000 of years (being somewhere around before completing his first 1000 year), since he already proceeded quite far as a Shinigami (and Vizard), he did obtain Bankai (and seemingly 3 techniques of his Zan). Basically, at this point, the only untouched segment are his Quincy powers.



  10. #40
    The one and only Pure Logic's Avatar
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    I just realize, The Quncies Uncomplete form is like FGT, There Complete form might be past the level of bankai, which could mean there might be something past FGT and Bankai, to make a complete Mugestu form for Ichigo? The Quncies and Shinigami, might come from the same source of powers? Maybe Bach was a Shinigami who modded his soul, and by using his blood he can transform humans or low class Shinigami to high class qunicies?

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