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  1. #31
    Scanlator POW's Avatar
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    @Greed-sama

    It already explained this happened so long ago people forgot about it hell even the Sage of the 6 paths was considered a myth.

    - Madara read it off the tablet

    - Also Madara may be wrong in fact I suspect he is wrong about part of the myth... i suspect the Fruit from the Tree actually was created by stealing Chakra from humans .


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  2. #32
    Senior Member Yoru's Avatar
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    About the stone tablet. We know that so far it was read with sharingan, mangekyou sharingan, EMS and Rinnegan. Supposedly we got every information we could from it, but is that really so? There is still a doujutsu that hasn't been used to read the tablet: Byakugan. I don't believe the byakugan doesen't have anything to do with other doujutsu, and if it has, it means that you can reveal even fore hidde info from the tablet. Perhaps something very important?

  3. #33
    Senior Member knife eater's Avatar
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    With this chapter we can go back and attribute Madara's words to Kabuto as allusion to the shinju.

    When Kabuto explained he had made Madara's ET body to make him power beyond what he wielded in his prime Madara was quick to rebuke in an ambiguous way, "Don't misunderstand, this is not power of your creation"..

    We used to think it meant either Hashirama's rightful power or to do with the so6p but it's absolutely clear he was referring to the shinju and the fruit. It is reinforced even more given that the context of their argument included references to the so6p AND THE TABLET!!.. He basically, in different words, schooled kabuto that even though Kabuto and orochimaru were able to decipher information from the Uchiha tablet through their hypotheses; Kabuto still is unable to garner the complete message because his ability is far less than Madara's in obtaining the tablet's secrets. "Don't misunderstand".. also implying that kabuto had no way of deducing the entire message and scheme of the shinobi world's true origins.
    _____
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  4. #34
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by POW View Post
    @Greed-sama
    It already explained this happened so long ago people forgot about it hell even the Sage of the 6 paths was considered a myth.
    Last time something happened long ago in Naruto, it was only 2 generations ago... and people already more or less forgot about those times, lol. To simply put, history in Naruto is not freely passed between people, it's the other way around, people try to erase history, destroy any facts that could reveal what happened in the past, but that in itself is foolish, since without knowing the past people can't learn from their mistakes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yoru View Post
    About the stone tablet. We know that so far it was read with sharingan, mangekyou sharingan, EMS and Rinnegan. Supposedly we got every information we could from it, but is that really so? There is still a doujutsu that hasn't been used to read the tablet: Byakugan. I don't believe the byakugan doesen't have anything to do with other doujutsu, and if it has, it means that you can reveal even fore hidde info from the tablet. Perhaps something very important?
    Well, at some point it was stated (by Jiraya) that Byakuygan, Sharingan and Rinnegan are known as the three great doujutsu, which would suggest that there are also lesser ones... thought we haven't seen any of them, besides in anime fillers. They are not necessarily connected, but simply the strongest of the known ones...

    Then again, Kaguya might have possessed the Byakugan, her son So6p Rinnegan and the older son's descendants the Sharingan. On the other hand, it was never stated that Kaguya had only one child, perhaps So6p was her first child and thus was born with most of the fruits powers plus Rinnegan, while her other child might have been born from lesser powers with Byakugan.


    It's really funny that people in Naruto don't know what happened 2 generations ago, yet they somehow know that the fruit appears each 1000 years , seriously this makes little sense, especially as the Tablet was created around So6p's times, or is it that they simply valued history more than they do now ?



  5. #35
    The French Tickler pratesh's Avatar
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    Nice, can we start debating the Rasengan doujutsu again? Was always a fan of it and I hope it happens.

  6. #36
    Appearance of Darkness Aga bomBa's Avatar
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    So,.. this is it heh?!

    I've mixed feelings about this outcome.. especially the Juubi part.

    - To be honest, the only huge thing that I don't like at all: is how Kishimoto made the Juubi look like.

    We were all waiting for a badass, lookin BEAST.. but is it that he wants to keep that badass look for only the " Kyuubi " ?? IF ITS NOT, then the juubi might be lookin in the end, just like that picture when Sage was standing infront of JUUBI with his big eye.
    IN FACT: Kishi once again, made almost the same scene: now we see the sage standing infront of ONE BIG EYE without the shape of his body in the shadows.

    - am I glad that he went this road, his biblical way of telling the true history? It's for sure not his first time, religion/mythlogy is a part of Naruto Manga: its for me the backbone of this manga. On top of how Kishimoto fuses this in a story with so much emotions, life-lessons in comparison with our real life.. makes it simple one of a kind. How easy it is to say " Never give up on hope ", " Never back down on your words " and " Love will always conquer Hate ".. Kishimoto finds always a way in telling, so that that each age group can relate to it.

    Let me go deeper in this princess/forbidden fruit part: I've had many theories about how this circle of hatred had started and how it evolved to where we are now; with this new information, it made it seems so simple.. like he wants to wrap everthing up: Sage- KYuubi Mode -> CHECK, Sage's background/history -> CHECK.
    AND YET, after re-reading the chapter many times, I came to like it more and more. I've debated many times with Paulbee, Rokudaime Sennin, Artifice and even POW, on WHO had created the tablet and with which purpose?!?! I believed that it was the ELDER BROTHER who was consumed by hatred and wanted his descendants to have the necessary information for leading the world with POWER + it would be a big coincidence that this TABLET is located in one of Uchiha's hideout, a place which was founded by Hashirama/Madara together.
    With all this religion stuff goin on, I came to realize more depths in his story; at least, this is how I SEE IT: I still cant believe that Sage had made that tablet with only the information that Madara has told us.. why? As the SAGE, i t would be foolish to wtite this crucial information about Eternal Genjutsu/Juubi etc.. so far, only the BAD GUYS has and are ABLE to read what has been written on that tablet.. meaning that every single desecendant of the younger brother isn't able for knowing the true history. WHY ??

    - Lets say that Sage DID write it.. did he also explained on HOW to counter it? Pretty stupid, right?? Telling people HOW to make a NUKE and also how to dissable it!

    this made me think and realize that 1. TOBI has warped Nagato probably to that place for reading what was written.. but did Nagato TOLD him everything? AT THAT MOMENT, Tobi didn't possessed the Rinnegan, Nagato did. Sage creating the moon with chibaku tensei, okey... but the rest of the story?? Nagato didn't know SHIT about Eternal Genjutsu, the plan of Madara/Tobi. Nagato had far other plans in ruling the world with his collected 9 bijuus.. SOO, if Nagato didn't know about this ETERNAL GENJUTSU, then has Tobi warped him to that tablet to begin with?? Did Nagato simple believed every single world of Tobi ( for who he thought it was Madara )?? IF NAGATO did read it and had THE RINNEGAN, then did he simple didn't wanted Eternal Genjutsu??
    It just doesn't fit right.. Nagato who wished to expose the world to the pain he had endured as a means to prevent others from wanting to wage war anymore, so instead of letting other people feel the pain/sorrow that he had felt with his NUKE BIJUU WEAPON, why not follow Tobi's plan?

    I believe that Nagato hasn't read the tablet at all.. he has been brainwashed to every detail and believed Tobi for who and what he was. Tobi wanted to keep this enternal genjutsu from him.. Madara's wishing or not, it would've backfired if he had told Nagato anyways.

    2. Madara awakened the Rinnegan, JUST before he died.. right? Madara probably thought that he had read everthing on that tablet ( if i'm not mistaking; in the beginning of Naruto Manga, they said that you could read it from Sharingan, MS and EMS.. thats it ). BUT WHAT IF, you can read it fully with Rinnegan and TOBI is the only one who has read the TABLET to the fulliest, why?
    Tobi could've warped to that place right after transplanting the Rinnegan in his socket... this tiny detail could be a huge problem for Madara's plan. WHAT IF Tobi knows more about this Tree / Genjutsu, because of the Rinnegan???
    HOW amazing it would be for such a plot twist,.. I dont think that Tobi went back for reading more. IF THE SAGE has written the tablet, then there's probably more information hidden and can olnly be acessed by wielding the RINNEGAN. Madara did something to the Juubi or Tobi.. I believe that Black Zetzu will play a huge role in this.

    AND just look back at Gedou Mazou sitting on top of a flower like a Boudha.. just merge all those nine eyes into one BIG EYE, get rid of those chains and wolla: one freakin BEAST if you ask me--> HE should be like a final form Juubi, wait a minute: that flower, is it the same??

    BTW,Sage created the moon to seal Juubi's body, right?? So, correct me if I'm wrong; HOW did they ever casted an eternal genjutsu with the juubi being sealed?? In fact: for knowing HOW TO EXECUTE enteral genjutsu, it has to be used before Sage had sealed the Juubi away... but HOW? Was there another moon between Princess - Sage's birth and who was able to gain control over Juubi for casting Genjutsu?? Better said: did the Juubi himself wanted to project Eternal Genjutsu on every people for what they took from him??

    It seems like Juubi's normal eyes has the Rinnegan pattern and when he enters his DARKSIDE, we see the 9 tomoes... and WHY DO WEE SEE SO MUCH RESEMBLANCE of Sage->Minato->Naruto? The cape thing, hairstyle? Is Uzumaki related in any form of what? I was thinking and what if those 9 names of the bijuu's,.. are their souls with each of them carrying some of Sage's original chakra with them??
    Sasuke knew about this.. but look at his face? IS this really what he wants?? destruction, wiping out the bijuu's and create a world from the start? Compare his look with Naruto's face expression.. or was Sasuke looking at Naruto like: hmm Naruto, you just don't die and people simple don't want you to die?


    Princess/Forbidden fruit part: LOVED IT!! it tells us how MANDKIND really is.. and in fact, that we as humans are really our own salvation/perdition. The Princess, a human who wanted to save people of her own kind with good intentions.. created this hatred with one single bite; a great symbolism of Yin/Yang. Tree=Earth, Leaves= Children and Fruit= Soul/Heart.. every living thing has yin/yang and by taking the tree's fruit ( heart/soul ), it changed. Obito/Madara's vision of Life is exact the opposite of the Bible; their vision is taking the FREE WILL of every people and yet; giving people FREE WILL, makes it easier for them to take a leap in the darkside.. wanting to know HOW it TASTE, FEELS and what more.

    This shinobi alliance is already PROOF that theres a way of living together without hatred.. the Sage has beaten the Juubi with his own powers, so will Naruto. IF THE PRĪNCESS has stopped that war, then Naruto will change the world with this WAR.. Naruto's bithday is close ( Desttiny..), his birthday, the day of salvation,..will be remembered as the end of a new beginning; Uzumaki Naruto, The Savior of Shinobi and Creator of a New World.

    Naruto/Sasuke fight will happen on Naruto's birthday.. that day changed their lives completely, the first layers of Madara's Master Plan and eventually; Naruto's birthday will be the day of Madara's End and Sasuke's fully redemption
    ... You're Dead 2 Me Now ...

  7. #37
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    So, did anyone else type Shinju in their browser ? Well I did and it turns out (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shinj%C5%AB) that it supposedly also can mean "double suicide" and, what's perhaps more important, is that the word is made from "mind" and "centre". What's more, it also has to do something with the "Pure Land/World".

    Seeing as Mind is the same as Soul and that the souls go to the Pure World and that by splitting Shinju one could get Mind Centre, I have to wonder if the Tree isn't really the Pure World (or it's inside). It seems reasonable even, seeing as all shinobi posses chakra from the Tree, thus they should be connected to it, the same way as Kyubi's chakra is connected in every person that it was shared too, thus shinobi souls returning to their origin make somewhat sense.

    BTW, here is some Madara gif that I found while strolling through the net:



  8. #38
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    Originally Posted by Zero

    Well, at some point it was stated (by Jiraya) that Byakuygan, Sharingan and Rinnegan are known as the three great doujutsu, which would suggest that there are also lesser ones... thought we haven't seen any of them, besides in anime fillers. They are not necessarily connected, but simply the strongest of the known ones...

    Then again, Kaguya might have possessed the Byakugan, her son So6p Rinnegan and the older son's descendants the Sharingan. On the other hand, it was never stated that Kaguya had only one child, perhaps So6p was her first child and thus was born with most of the fruits powers plus Rinnegan, while her other child might have been born from lesser powers with Byakugan.
    I am getting progressively more curious about the other clans like Hyuuga and Uzumaki. These clans must somehow be tied to the Hagoromo bloodline in some way but I am running out of guesses. We know that the Senju got their strong chakra and life force from the Younger Son but if that is the case then why are the Uzumaki the ones who possess such strong life force and seem to have so much knowledge. People have said that they are a branch of the Senju but that doesn't make much sense because that would mean that if anything their life force and chakra should have been less than the Senju. Also, Nagato was an ideal recipient of the Rinnegan. Yet it has been said that only someone with both Senju and Uchiha blood can use that power. That might mean that the Uzumaki clan is a result of cross breeding between the Senju and Uchiha at some point but if that's the case why wouldn't they have some kind of eye technique of their own? Perhaps they are descendants of Kaguya from another child but because Kaguya had passed on the majority of the God Fruit's power to her first son, her second child was not as powerful. I think it is interesting though that the Elder brother's eyes had a swirl pattern similar to the Uzumaki clan symbol.

    The Hyuuga are also quite a mystery, we now know that the sharingan is in fact derived from the Rinnegan but what about the Byakugan? It doesn't make sense for the Byakugan to have simply evolved completely on its own after all that we have learned about other bloodlines. Perhaps the Byakugan was also passed down by Kaguya who may have had other children or maybe it was created when an Uchiha bred with some other clan. I think it is interesting though that the Byakugan is not necessarily weaker than the Sharingan, it simply seems to possess different abilities. In terms of insight the Byakugan is said to be even more capable than the Sharingan. I also find it interesting that Zetsu seems to have abilities that are similar to the Byakugan and his eyes even resemble the Byakugan a little bit.

    It seems like Kishimoto has swept some of these other bloodlines/clans under the rug to focus on the Senju and Uchiha but I suspect that these clans will play a very big role in the story later on. Kishimoto keeps dropping hints that there is more going on than simply a battle between Uchiha and Senju to reunite the clans. Even the idea of the God Tree being the source of both the Juubi and the Rikudou changes the focus. Before we were led to believe that the Juubi and Madara were the ultimate problem but now we are seeing more clearly than before that its not as simple as that. Even if Madara was defeated and the Juubi were sealed that would not solve the underlying problem. The world has been broken and until balance is restored there will always be the potential for someone to resurrect the Juubi and there will probably always be another Madara (even without Madara others could take a similar role given time, Sasuke, Obito, Kabuto, all of them have the potential to be similar types). One of the great things about the Naruto story is that there isn't just one big bad guy. The problem is rooted in the system of the world.

    It's really funny that people in Naruto don't know what happened 2 generations ago, yet they somehow know that the fruit appears each 1000 years , seriously this makes little sense, especially as the Tablet was created around So6p's times, or is it that they simply valued history more than they do now ?
    I think it is quite likely that the changes following Kaguya eating the God Tree Fruit had something to do with that. Remember before that there were no ninja's no ninjutsu, no special techniques. While that power may have given humans amazing abilities it also led to a great deal of division and a culture of secrecy. In Madara and Hashirama's time the world was not made up of countries but rather small ninja clans all trying to kill each other and hide their secrets from each other. That attitude probably made it very difficult for generational learning and probably led to the elimination of most written history. It's like Madara said, Kaguya believed that with the power she obtained she could end war but instead wars became even worse and ninjutsu eventually led to the breakdown of society. Likely through fear and class divisions between those who had great chakra and those who didn't. Then over time as Kaguya and Her son's bloodlines spread and became divided that power took on many different forms. Resulting in the many different clans, as these clans each developed their own unique abilities that increased the need for secrecy. In the past there might have still been great wars among humans but clearly the very fact that there was an Empress implies a greater level of social order and more unified societies. After the creation of ninjutsu it sounds like social order pretty much crumbled. It was so bad in Madara and Hashirama's times that most children never reached adulthood. The ninja world at that point was just a bunch of scattered war ravaged clans. The invention of the village system was the biggest step towards organized society in many generations. Even after the creation of the village system though, a lot of the most important information was kept secret. Remember Naruto wasn't even aware of who his parents were until he was 16 and he only learned that because of all the crazy things he went through. The ninja world is full of secrecy that probably wasn't a major issue in the time prior to Kaguya and her son.

    Also, probably a big part of the society of the past was probably wiped out by the Juubi. We have already seen how much damage the incomplete Juubi can do in just a matter of hours with a whole arm trying to contain it. Just imagine how much devistation the Juubi could have caused it it were loose for years.

  9. #39
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    ...hmmmm, wait a minute, if Jyubi rampaged because it's chakra was stolen (thus was going on NE only) and So6p fought it, using it's own chakra that was in him, then does this actually mean that Bijuu were made from the Fruit's chakra that was inside of So6p and not from the Jyubi ? Wouldn't it mean that by sealing the Jyubi in himself and possessing the Fruit's chakra, So6p's power was surpassing that of his mother and equal if not superior than Shinju's ?

    It's hard to imagine that the Younger Brother, who possessed such enormous Life Energies, had only one child. It's quite likely that he had at least 2 descendants, one became the Senju and was meant to bring peace through love (failed), the other was tasked with the mission to preserve secrets and techniques of the Jinchuriki Seal, in case So6p's prophecy came true and Jyubi was released, thus the other one became Uzumaki (perhaps they even breded in similar manner to Hyuga, in order to preserve their bodies capable of housing the Jyubi ?). This would make them maximally distant from each other, but still blood relatives through having descended from the Younger Son.

    Juugo's clan is also a bit of a mystery actually, because on one hand, Naruto as an Uzumaki proved to be compatible with Sage Mode, while on the other hand, Sasuke as an Uchiha also proved to be compatible with Senjutsu Transformation, so which bloodline's trait is that ? Seeing as we only know Juugo, we can't really know if orange hair is a trait of their clan, like the red hair of the Uzumaki, not to mention the only? other character with orange hair that we know is Yahiko (interesting enough is that he is blue eyed like Naruto and Minato in the manga) and that he was the only know compatible person for the Deva path (wait was this even explained anyway, or was it that Nagato specifically picked people that Jiraya fought ?).

    As to Hyuga, well the way how the Sharingan looks after using Izanami (and perhaps how it looks when the eyes are fully blind), might be a hint to it. Perhaps Hyuga's are descendants of the Uchiha who lost their sight in the eyes and their power with it, thus passing a different power to their descendants, that was later know as Byakugan. The Elder Son receiving only half of Sage's power, was born with a different Doujutsu than Rinnegan, perhaps Byakugan was born in a similar manner, a new doujutsu was born because there was something missing from it.

    We still don't know when Hyuga even appeared in Konoha.

    BTW I was checking out some chapters about Izanami and Itachi, in one of the pages, actually says that there is a risk (in other words a possibility) of loosing eyesight when using Izanagi, instead of saying that one sacrifices eyesight for casting it, though it was in reference to ancestry Uchiha, so perhaps only they had a small chance of avoiding sacrificing the eyesight. Then again it diverse depending on a translation, so it's hard to say .



  10. #40
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    Thinking very carefuly there has to be some misinterpretation orf the last chapters.

    1) Why do people die when their chakra is removed or exhausted, yet they lived and fought each other happily before the Juubi's chakra?

    2) If The Juubi (Shinju) Rampage to get it's chakra back, The What did the SO6) Use to creat the 9Juubis, if it was n'yt that Shinju's Chakra?

    Obviously What was stolen from the Shinju was not all its chakra, and humans already had their own chakra before the SO6P taught them Ninjutsu or they could not have stayed alive.

    Obviously what was stolen was a portion of the Shinjuu's power/chakra, that permitted Chakra to be manipulated. Obviously Humans have a portion of the Shinjuu's chakra in them which is what it wants back, but it is unable to selectively separate it's essence from himan chakra and it ends up taking everything.

    Obviusly what the SO6P preached was the chakra manipulation skill.

    Obviously the SO6P' contained some of the Juubi's chakra from his mother, but he also was changed as an embryo into a being that replicated the Juubi's power and not just use them.

    Obviously Kagura or the sage did something to the world which allowed the Shinju's Chakra to infiltrate all humans.

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