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  1. #61
    Senior Member Sakyamuni's Avatar
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    @Aga bomba the thing with sasuke is that he did spoke with an edo-itachi who got free from edotensei. That made sasuke changed himself

  2. #62
    Senior Member Sakyamuni's Avatar
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    A question that i don't know if has been treated is an edo tensei capable of use the dead demon seal?
    Can the seal be used still?
    If it can, can the seal be used on jubito or just the juubi inside of him?

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aga bomBa View Post
    Indeed.. ressurecting them in Uchiha's hide-out would be pointless. Also,

    - It's true that Oro felt sorrow for the stage that Kabuto has put himself in.. but I can assure you that he still hungers for Sasuke's body; he even MADE A COMMAND: " I'm interested in your BODY Sasuke..
    Another interesting point is that Sasuke said that Orochimaru had "another" reason for attacking Konoha. Orochimaru still hasn't answered that question and I think that is very important.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aga bomBa View Post
    Wow.. I've said some pages ago almost the same thing:

    So far, I haven't seen anybody share the same theory like us.. that after killing Jubito, there will a " Training/Planning " moment ( something similar to DBZ, when they went into the Hyperbolic Place ).
    These learning moments has to be @ training place: Learning full kyuubi chakra, getting full control of Sage while mixing it with Kyuubi.
    Yeah, I think that this battle will lead to some kind of transition period. Naruto has gone through an enormous amount of growth in a very short time and I think at some point he is going to need to stop and figure it all out a bit. Also, in spite of Naruto's incredible growth he is still nowhere near Madara's level. Even without the Rinnegan or the Mokuton Madara fought Hashirama with the 9-tails armored in Susanoo and still lost. So even if Naruto were to Master both halves of the Kyuubi he would still be far from being able to compete with Madara as he is now. Naruto still has a lot to learn before he can compete with that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aga bomBa View Post
    - I EVEN GOT A CRAZY THEORY after this chapter: we all know that Minato needs to put a marking on somebody for instant teleportation.. that seal is a permanent marking, right? WHAT IF NARUTO, after knowing that he can spread his " Kyuubi Chakra " with people:

    1. gets control over the Hiraishin seal by Minato and somehow inverts it with his Kyuubi chakra, so he can teleport instantly to that person when he puts his kyuubi chakra on them. Naruto can protect his friends 24/7 when they need them + when his enemy doens't know about this jutsu, they're screwed.
    2. With this last chakra transmission.. Naruto automatically gained something similar to the Hiraishin jutsu
    3. With this last chakra transmission.. MINATO intentionally somehow sealed the Hiraishin into his Kyuubi chakra, or body??!?
    Its hard to say but I am definitely thinking that Naruto will get the flying thundergod technique and pair it with his shadow clone technique. I also suspect that either Sasuke will somehow get Obito's time/space Mangekyou technique. Both of those techniques seem very significant to the story. Both techniques seem to be among the most useful in the series and I could definitely see them playing a big role in taking down Madara. I still think that a big part of Sasuke's role is for his eyes to surpass Madara's, throughout the whole series many people have talked about the potential of Sasuke's eyes. I think it has to be that only his eyes can surpass Madara's otherwise, what is the point of all the focus on developing his eyes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aga bomBa View Post
    Once again..you're right. That's why I asked if his eyes was boobytrapped.. because lately, I'm starting to doubt lots of stuff. Let me explain; Nagato dies and Tobi NEEDS Sasuke to synce him with Gedou Mazou, right?? AND where the f..ck is Gedou Mazou--> sitting like a Boudha statue and takin a SHIT underground with Yamato behind him. After that; Sasuke escapes while killing Zetzu's, shows off with his new Ama- Susanoo.. but did Tobi knew about this? Sasuke was needed a full PROTECTION and yet; sasuke was out of the picture when Tobi took action. Then Obito teleports back from his dimension all screwed up by Kakashi, lays his eyes on Sasuke and calls him a TRAITOR ?!?
    THIS MEANS that Tobi didn't knew that he escaped and if sasuke was his RAW DIAMOND, then why didn't he gave him more attention, even if Madara had made his entrance? SASUKE was all he needed, so for what??? Was Tobi really convinced that Sasuke was going to take his side during this war? Think about it: IF TOBI wasn't sure, then why giving him the eyes while knowing that Sasuke can eventually be THE ONE who screws up Moon Eye's Plan? Tobi made it even clear, that he's GOING TO MAKE SASUKE FIGHT NARUTO for the kyuubi.. when will this happen? IS IT that Tobi didn't know that he would be THIS POWERFULL by takin over the Juubi and his failsave was SASUKE??
    It's sure that Gedou Mazou isn't Juubi's true body, but a Juubi container, right? IF IT IS Juubi's body, then I would understand why he needs Sasuke to synce with it. Those Nine eyes of Gedou Mazou will eventually invert into ONE BIG EYE ( like we've seen in a picture back in the days ) and with Gedou Mazou's eye, he will somehow protect the genjutsu on the moon.

    IT WOULD make NO SENSE at all, if Jubito doesn't tries to gain control over Sasuke.. after knowing his importance for this war. Talking about " no sense ".. where is Sarutobi, seriously?? Is he really gone by that ONE SHOT of Juubito? I'm hoping for a reunion with Tsunade and Orochimaru.. but " The God of Shinobi " didnt do shit during this entire war and how will he surpass Hashirama, Tobimara and Minato after all they've done till now??
    All true. Sasuke has been considered was way too important to Obito for him not to have a big role in the Moon's eye plan. There better be some explanation for all this.

    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    @Artifice and AgaBomba,

    Many things don't make sense because Kishimoto has changed his plot. Kishi has Mangle the plot so badly that he can't make it make sense anymore.
    I really hope you are wrong about this. So far Kishimoto has done a pretty good job of filling in the holes so if he doesn't have a good explanation for what Obito really wanted Sasuke for, it could honestly ruin the series. So far almost Sasuke's entire plot has been defined by Obito (maybe Madara, depending on what orders Madara left) to develop Sasuke. Obito is way too invested in Sasuke for that not to be explained. It would honestly destroy Sasuke's story line if there isn't a satisfying answer to that question. I think of it as similar to the whole situation with Itachi. After the Itachi battle I remember a ton of discussion about what really happened and how the whole situation didn't make any sense and their had to be more to it. Fortunately, there was more to it and what happened with Itachi ended up being quite well explained. I hope Kishimoto does something similar with Obito and Sasuke and provides some good reasoning behind the madness.

    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    Starting with Nagato Using the Rinne Tensei, Tobi said it was Originaly supposed to be used for HIS sake, This implies that Nagato was supposed to bring back some one Tobi wanted back, or even Tobi Himself (if he had been Madara in a fake Zetsu body(Remember all our debates?).
    This still makes sense, depending on how you look at it. Tobi had assumed the role of Madara and he was speaking to Zetsu (Madara's representative). Tobi wanted the Moon's Eye plan and so did Madara, so resurrecting Madara was for his sake (to complete the Moon's Eye plan as they had agreed.)

    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    Next thing we Know, Tobi tries to do the Eye of the Moon Plan all by himself without Madara.
    This also might be fine, depending on a few things. Tobi acting against Madara makes sense because he wants to control the illusion and insure that his vision is created not Madara's. The reason why he acted differently from his original plan is because Zetsu had heard his other plan. Remember Zetsu (black Zetsu in particular) is/are creations of Madara. Black Zetsu is Madara's representative and thus it makes sense that Tobi would be trying to deceive him.

    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    Next Tobi Wanted to Sync Sasuke to Geddou Mazou, Now..Tobi attempts to blow up everyone, including Sasuke. Why blow up someone you want to Sync?
    Your definitely right about this one. This is the one part of the equation that just doesn't seem to make sense no matter how I look at it. Obito's attitude towards Sasuke seems to have changed entirely without any explanation. Even when he started the fight with Naruto he made it clear that Sasuke was important but now he acts like Sasuke is completely irrelevant to the plan. It doesn't make sense at all. I hope Kishimoto rectifies this.

    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    I believe the whole syncing to Geddou Mazou thing was for a different plot ending and Kishi has changed his mind.
    Again I really hope you are wrong about this. Sasuke's importance in Obito's plan is way too important for Kishimoto to just sweep it under the rug. So many of Obito's actions were tied to Sasuke. The only other thing I can think of is that Sasuke was actually more closely tied to Black Zetsu's plans than he was Obito's. Remember Black Zetsu has been with Obito since he assumed Madara's identity at the time of Madara's death. That means that Black Zetsu might have actually been the one to mastermind much of what Obito did. Obito almost always spoke about his plans for Sasuke in Zetsu's presence, so it is very possible that Madara himself may have a need for Sasuke that we do not know about.

    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    I also believe that Sasuke seeks theJuubi for himself because he wants to Cast Infinite Tsukuyomi on the world, as the protector of Itachi's Ideal. In other words, Sasuke, Tobi, and Madara all want the Juubi, they all want to cast Eternal Tsukuyomi, and they want it for slightly different reasons. They each want to control the World, Madara want the world as his Toy, Tobi wants a childish Fantasy, and Saskue wants to ensure that Itachi's Ideals will be dominant.
    I would say, yes and no, to this one. I agree Sasuke wants to rule so that Itachi's ideals will be dominant but I don't think he want to enforce it with the Eternal Tsukiyomi or with the Juubi. Remember when Sasuke and Naruto hit the Juubi with the BlackFlameRasenshuriken, he said "burn it down" he wanted to destroy the Juubi. Also, Sasuke said that he wanted to become Hokage. Neither of these things would make sense if he intended to use the Eternal Tsukuyomi. Sasuke wants to rule the ninja world but I see no evidence that he cares about the Juubi or that he wants to use Eternal Tsukuyomi. I think Sasuke hates the old system, he wants to remove it entirely and I believe that includes the Juubi.

    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    The Geddou Mazou IS/Was the Juubi's body deprived of it's Chakra. It is like a hybernation state. The Juubi has no soul and Cannot die, but deprived of it's Chakra it turns into a Giant wooden Cocoon.,..Geddou Mazou.

    One of the great unanswered questions/mysteries is the SO6P. Was he just an Uzumaki, a highly Talented Uzumaki, but never-the-less..just an Uzumaki, meaning he wasn't trully Unique, any other learned Uzumaki could/would eventually have reached the same level he reached. Or was the SO6P more than a highly determined uZumaki who could use sage mode?

    Was the Rinnegan a gift from Heaven, or was it stolen from the Hapless Titan named Juubi?
    The Sage and the Juubi are definitely the linchpins of the whole thing. Both are still very mysterious and the connection between them is perhaps even more mysterious still. As I mentioned before the fact that the Juubi's Eye Resembles both the sharingan/Rinnegan and its body remembles the Mokuton really makes me wonder how much of those bloodlines are more from the Juubi than they are from the Sage. It was said that the Sage defeated the Juubi but how did he do that if the Rinnegan and the Mokuton are part of the Juubi? Did he defeat it without those powers? It's a very good question and one that is very hard to answer at this point.

    As I have said before my theory is that the Sage was not a god or even particularly unique at the time of his birth. I think that the Rikudou started out a normal person. I think the Rikudou is a bit like a Budda type figure. I think he was a person devoted to idealism and enlightenment. I think he studied the world and became one with nature and achieved spiritual enlightenment. I think that is the foundation of Sage mode. I think modern Sage arts are just a subset of what the Rikudou achieved in his life. I think he trained both his body and mind obtaining strong martial arts (the root of Taijutsu) and learned to use his mind very effectively perhaps learning some level of hypnosis (perhaps the root of genjutsu) and learned to use both energies in sync. Then though mediation and empathy he established a deep connection with Nature (through which he obtained many new powers and strengthened his existing ones).

    Remember how Juugo's bloodline is caused by the uncontrolled absorption of Natural Energy? Juugo is like a chaotic Sage, he has natural energy but it manifests in many strange mutations, which is different from the more specific forms the Naruto, Kabuto, and Hashirama have shown. I think that the Rikudou started off a bit like Juugo, in that he learned how to absorb natural energy but in a raw form that was not specific. Yet, due to his wisdom and knowledge of the world he was eventually able to take control of it and shape the energy in very specific ways. Natural energy offers countless mutations (remember all of the people with cursed seal level 2) all had different forms that related to their will. For example, Sasuke got wings. Interesting enough, the Juubi also has the ability to shape-shift and take on many forms both in part and in whole. The Juubi has also been called the Progenitor. I think that the reason the Rikudou's powers are so closely related is because the Rikudou possessed a nearly full understanding of nature and the spirit he was able to intelligently shape it. The Juubi on the other hand is pure Natural and Spiritual power (its body and eye are the height of those powers). Yet the Juubi does not have the wisdom and knowledge to shape those powers and use them in the best possible way. Notice how Obito seems to fight far more efficiently than the Juubi did. That is because his intelligence and understanding allows him to use that limitless power in ways that the Juubi just wouldn't think of. The Juubi's powers are unlimited but its knowledge, skill and understanding are limited. The Rikudou won not because he was able to overpower the Juubi but because he was wiser and more intelligent.

  4. #64
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    you guys seriously think saskue will be the bad guy? i think hes going to die, at least foreshadowing says so..

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  5. #65
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    Many things don't make sense because Kishimoto has changed his plot. Kishi has Mangle the plot so badly that he can't make it make sense anymore.

    Starting with Nagato Using the Rinne Tensei, Tobi said it was Originaly supposed to be used for HIS sake, This implies that Nagato was supposed to bring back some one Tobi wanted back, or even Tobi Himself (if he had been Madara in a fake Zetsu body(Remember all our debates?).

    Next thing we Know, Tobi tries to do the Eye of the Moon Plan all by himself without Madara.

    Next Tobi Wanted to Sync Sasuke to Geddou Mazou, Now..Tobi attempts to blow up everyone, including Sasuke. Why blow up someone you want to Sync?

    I believe the whole syncing to Geddou Mazou thing was for a different plot ending and Kishi has changed his mind. I also believe that Sasuke seeks theJuubi for himself because he wants to Cast Infinite Tsukuyomi on the world, as the protector of Itachi's Ideal. In other words, Sasuke, Tobi, and Madara all want the Juubi, they all want to cast Eternal Tsukuyomi, and they want it for slightly different reasons. They each want to control the World, Madara want the world as his Toy, Tobi wants a childish Fantasy, and Saskue wants to ensure that Itachi's Ideals will be dominant.

    The Geddou Mazou IS/Was the Juubi's body deprived of it's Chakra. It is like a hybernation state. The Juubi has no soul and Cannot die, but deprived of it's Chakra it turns into a Giant wooden Cocoon.,..Geddou Mazou.

    One of the great unanswered questions/mysteries is the SO6P. Was he just an Uzumaki, a highly Talented Uzumaki, but never-the-less..just an Uzumaki, meaning he wasn't trully Unique, any other learned Uzumaki could/would eventually have reached the same level he reached. Or was the SO6P more than a highly determined uZumaki who could use sage mode?

    Was the Rinnegan a gift from Heaven, or was it stolen from the Hapless Titan named Juubi?
    I'm not sure if many, but there are certainly some, as always.

    Obito, as Tobi/Madara said that because he was constantly watched by Black Zetsu (which is more of a Madara than Obito himself). He must have played "disappointment" because of loosing Nagato, so that it didn't seems suspicious and so that it wouldn't seem that Obito never intendant to revive Madara (which probably was the case).

    That was The Plan of using The Plan :p. He probably intended to use it himself, the moment he learned the full scope of it.

    From what I understood, Obito needed a Rinnegan while there was a possibility that Nagato's eyes were already destroyed or hidden in a place he would never find (lol Konan, such a failure ), thus he needed Sasuke's EMS in case he had to evolve it to Rinnegan and use it for himself. The moment he got the Rinnegan, Sasuke became unimportant, more or less, or rather no longer useful for the Eyes, but rather as a simple war/battle potential (then Kabuto appeared with his Zombie army and Sasuke again became even less important ).

    No, Sasuke doesn't want Jyubi, on the contrary, he wants to erase it complete form existence (his whole demeanor and statements about burning it whole with Amaterasu/Kagetsuchi). He sees the Bijuu as a part of the old system that he wants to destroy (and made a new one) and he is right. If they weren't part of the system, Minato wouldn't have to sacrifice himself and his family to maintain the Bijuu balance.

    GM might be rather made from clay-like substance than wood, especially if you take into consideration it's actual color.

    The rest will probably be answered in this arc.



  6. #66
    Senior Member Greed-sama's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    Starting with Nagato Using the Rinne Tensei, Tobi said it was Originaly supposed to be used for HIS sake, This implies that Nagato was supposed to bring back some one Tobi wanted back, or even Tobi Himself (if he had been Madara in a fake Zetsu body(Remember all our debates?).
    It was meant for Madara, remember this http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/559/2 ? Here he is thinking Nagato finally resurrected him only to find out it was Edo Tensei
    My name is Corey and I am an asshole. I get excessively drunk at inappropriate times, disregard social norms, indulge in every whim, ignore the consequences of my actions, mock idiots and posers, sleep with random women, and just generally act like a raging dick head. I contribute to society in no way what so ever

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  7. #67
    Senior Member kuroihikari's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    Starting with Nagato Using the Rinne Tensei, Tobi said it was Originaly supposed to be used for HIS sake, This implies that Nagato was supposed to bring back some one Tobi wanted back, or even Tobi Himself (if he had been Madara in a fake Zetsu body(Remember all our debates?).

    Next thing we Know, Tobi tries to do the Eye of the Moon Plan all by himself without Madara.

    Next Tobi Wanted to Sync Sasuke to Geddou Mazou, Now..Tobi attempts to blow up everyone, including Sasuke. Why blow up someone you want to Sync?
    And to add to what Greed said above, the original plan was for Madara to be revived with Rinne Tensei, and then to use Gedou Mazou somehow. Tobi tried to use Sasuke instead while Madara was unrevived. When Madara revived, Tobi got synced to Gedou Mazou, and now Tobi doesn't need Madara or Sasuke at all.

  8. #68
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    The whole point with GM, is that it can only be fully controlled with the Rinnegan, which Obito himself didn't have at that time and only Sasuke could have potentially obtained it. Having only HC's gives you only a bit of control as mentioned by Madara when he was explaining things to Obito:
    Spoiler!

    to control the GM well, you also need the Rinnegan, not to mention about controlling the actual Jyuubi, which was Obito's aim from the start (he asked Madara how to create the ideal world, not if he could help in creating it, kukukuku).

    Nagato's Rinne Tensei might have really been meant to be used for Tobi's sake, as he mentioned, but at that time he doesn't state for what exactly. It's possible that he was planning to revive the other part of the Kyubi, or wasting Nagato's life on reviving someone random, after stopping being useful and salvaging then the Rinnegan for himself.

    Smart people tend to destroy or seal the Magical Eyes, like the Hyuga, or Shisui (though it turned out that he didn't destroy it ), especially when they know that they can do miracles (in this case reviving the dead and other things). Obito was very wise by taking into consideration that the eyes might have been destroyed right after Nagato's death (perhaps even by Nagato himself), or at least very well hidden.

    Basically, the Rinnegan was useful to Madara because it could revive people, while it was useful to Obito because it allowed one to control the Jyuubi. Preparing a backup plan that will result in creation of another pair is reasonable.

    I rather have to wonder about the credibility of Madara's backup plan. Sure thanks to it, he can use Obito himself to revive himself (in case he would take the Rinnegan for himself, which indeed happened), but he needs to be there to use it, right ? Doesn't it mean that this plan already had foreseen that Madara would have been brought back or revived in some kind of state anyway ? Or is it that the Black Zetsu himself can activate Madara's will in Obito, in order to force Obito to use Rinne Tensei ? If that was the case, why this didn't happen ? Is it because Obito successfully fooled the Black Zetsu that Sasuke will be used to revive Madara ? Or is it that their hands were tied because Madara's soul was in Kabuto's possession and thus he couldn't have been revived ? Wait, this actually might mean that the reason that Obito implanted Rinnegan into himself, even though he knew that Madara could use him to revive himself, is because Kabuto had control of Madara at that time and that's why Obito felt safe to use the Rinnegan by himself ?



  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    I rather have to wonder about the credibility of Madara's backup plan. Sure thanks to it, he can use Obito himself to revive himself (in case he would take the Rinnegan for himself, which indeed happened), but he needs to be there to use it, right ? Doesn't it mean that this plan already had foreseen that Madara would have been brought back or revived in some kind of state anyway ? Or is it that the Black Zetsu himself can activate Madara's will in Obito, in order to force Obito to use Rinne Tensei ? If that was the case, why this didn't happen ? Is it because Obito successfully fooled the Black Zetsu that Sasuke will be used to revive Madara ? Or is it that their hands were tied because Madara's soul was in Kabuto's possession and thus he couldn't have been revived ? Wait, this actually might mean that the reason that Obito implanted Rinnegan into himself, even though he knew that Madara could use him to revive himself, is because Kabuto had control of Madara at that time and that's why Obito felt safe to use the Rinnegan by himself ?
    I think that there is more to Madara's plans than we have seen. Even now look at how relaxed he is. When Hashirama didn't fight him directly Madara just stat down and said that he would wait. Also when his plan to use Obito to resurrect himself failed he almost seemed to laugh it off. Madara did a lot of things that we still don't know about and I suspect that he knows a lot more than he is letting on. Remember we still don't even know how Madara survived his battle with Hashirama. I also think that Black Zetsu is more significant than we know. Black Zetsu has been watching almost every major battle in the series, he is Madara's emissary and I doubt that he has just been an observer this whole time. The black rods seem similar to the substance that makes up Black Zetsu. Even when Obito started to be taken over by Madara the black substance began to cover his body. Clearly Madara implanted the substance in many places (perhaps even the Juubi's body) since the rods came out of it when Nagato summoned it. I think that Madara set all that up in advance. Clearly Madara had many plans to insure that he would be revived. Nagato was one option, Obito another, but I suspect he has other options even assuming those fail. Another interesting point about Zetsu is how he likes to consume unique ninja. As we know, important information can be gathered through a corpse, I think Black Zetsu has been collecting that data for Madara's sake.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by kiduka View Post
    I really hope some of that Kyuubi Chakra reached Kakashi, I don't want Kishi to dump him like Yamato. It would be cool if he warps back in and meets the 4th.
    This is probably one of best ideas in here and I think it is correct. However I don't think Kakashi is going to use his power yet as I think he will be instrumental at later time at defeating Obito.

    I think at some point Naruto will use a Sage mode infused attack and go after Obito who may have no other choice but to try and avoid it with time space ninjutsu only to be caught by Kakashi. I think the Kyuubi cloak can also allow people to communicate telepathically so Kakashi will be able to pick up on whats going on.


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