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  1. #41
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    Well, currently Minato is dumbfounded by many revelations (that Tobi is Obito, that he himself could have averted the crisis - supposedly - that Naruto has also gained Sage Mode, etc), he is basically distracted by a lot of things, memories and emotions... though him being a bit slow, seems to be part of his character rather than situation, basing it on his son (like father like son, though they seem to be a bit slow in different types of things...) and Tobirama's comments.

    The fact that he could analyze Tobi's jutsu so well (at Kyubi night), might be because of his own immense knowledge and experience with time-space ninjutsu and sealing jutsu, rather than his keen intellect and sharp mind, which is just above average from the looks of it.

    After all, genius in this story, most of the time means genius in being a ninja, rather than being intellectual (Naruto himself can be considered a genius in senjutsu, if we were to looks at his beyond talent results in such a short time).



  2. #42
    Senior Member kuroihikari's Avatar
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    That makes me think that Minato and Hashirama seem to be cut from the same mold: They became Hokage primarily through their dominance of the battlefield.

    Not to take away from the other Hokage, of course. Minato and Hashirama were leaders who were at their best acting in front of everyone else, while the other Hokage were at their best fighting side-by-side with everyone.

  3. #43
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    Well, currently Minato is dumbfounded by many revelations (that Tobi is Obito, that he himself could have averted the crisis - supposedly - that Naruto has also gained Sage Mode, etc), he is basically distracted by a lot of things, memories and emotions... though him being a bit slow, seems to be part of his character rather than situation, basing it on his son (like father like son, though they seem to be a bit slow in different types of things...) and Tobirama's comments.

    The fact that he could analyze Tobi's jutsu so well (at Kyubi night), might be because of his own immense knowledge and experience with time-space ninjutsu and sealing jutsu, rather than his keen intellect and sharp mind, which is just above average from the looks of it.

    After all, genius in this story, most of the time means genius in being a ninja, rather than being intellectual (Naruto himself can be considered a genius in senjutsu, if we were to looks at his beyond talent results in such a short time).
    Zero, You should re-read Jiraiya's comment on Minato...You are Dangerously diminishing Minato.

    Spoiler!


    1) Minato had Talent you only see once in a decade at best

    2) He was a genius

    3) No one like him has been born in a while

    Etc Etc.

    No Zero Minato is a true Genius, and Naruto is nowhere near him. Like Naruto said about himself...

    Spoiler!



    If you hadn't noticed, I'm pretty stupid,I'm not even that good of a ninja....

    I just can't compare minato intellectually to Naruto.

    I am not perfect and I defy you to prove otherwise
    Growing Old Gracefully is an Oxymoron ... Mostly Moron !

  4. #44
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    Zero, You should re-read Jiraiya's comment on Minato...You are Dangerously diminishing Minato.

    Spoiler!


    1) Minato had Talent you only see once in a decade at best

    2) He was a genius

    3) No one like him has been born in a while

    Etc Etc.

    No Zero Minato is a true Genius, and Naruto is nowhere near him. Like Naruto said about himself...

    Spoiler!



    If you hadn't noticed, I'm pretty stupid,I'm not even that good of a ninja....

    I just can't compare minato intellectually to Naruto.
    No one ever said that Minato is dumb, he certainly is above average when it comes to intellect, while Naruto is below average, but that's all.

    He obviously had talent (it is said that everyone has a certain talent), there is yet to be a talentless Hokage (even Naruto seems to be immensely talented in Sage Arts; from what he know, he might be the most talented person since Hashirama, or even So6p?, or perhaps even the first one which such immense talent, it depends on how much effort and time So6p? and Hashirama had to put in order to master it in comparison to Naruto).

    We don't know what Jiraya meant by in awhile, but seeing as he did witness the pure skill of the Rinnegan wielder Nagato, he must be talking about Konohomaru generation and he does seem right in that (then again Gaara might be even more talented than Minato, since he did seemingly become a Kage at a younger age than him).

    Minato was certainly wise (you can notice that in his speech) and talented, perhaps even smarter than an average ninja, but there are tons of ninja way more intelligent than him.

    When they say genius (the most overused title in this series), most of the time (if not always) they mean one at being a ninja, at ninjutsu, jutsu over all. One that quickly and easily learns and adapts jutsu, using them with skill above the others, often is called genius. It's obvious that Minato might be a genius at ninjutsu, but he is not-so-smart at naming the jutsu, as it was presented in the recent chapters (basically, most of the time, a genius is a genius at something, rather than an over all genius).



  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    Zero, You should re-read Jiraiya's comment on Minato...You are Dangerously diminishing Minato.

    Spoiler!


    1) Minato had Talent you only see once in a decade at best

    2) He was a genius

    3) No one like him has been born in a while

    Etc Etc.

    No Zero Minato is a true Genius, and Naruto is nowhere near him. Like Naruto said about himself...

    Spoiler!



    If you hadn't noticed, I'm pretty stupid,I'm not even that good of a ninja....

    I just can't compare minato intellectually to Naruto.
    Agreed, Minato is definitely more intelligent than Naruto and he is far more intelligent than the average ninja. Looking back at the Kakashi flashbacks we got a glimpse of Minato not only being powerful but very perceptive and wise.

    Minato may not have noticed that Tobi was Obito, but neither did anyone else. Minato was still able to come up with a plan to deal with Tobi in a very sort time frame. Minato was able to discern how Tobi's powers worked and learned more about him in a couple minutes than the main characters were able to discover over the course of many encounters with him.

    Despite everything Minato has been doing more work than anyone else in this battle so far and he has made several astute observations.

    Kishimoto isn't fan worshiping Minato which I consider a good thing. Right now Minato is working alongside Tobirama, who is clearly one of the most impressive ninja's throughout history. During his life Tobirama was second only to Hashirama and Madara and they were considered gods in their time, far above the rest. Tobirama is not only a powerful ninja he is brilliant, he created many of the most powerful techniques known and he was the founder of most of Konoha's social structure. All of this and he didn't even have a bloodline limit.

    Minato doesn't seem that impressive at the moment because he is standing among the best. We are talking about characters who could beat several Kages at once. Minato might look weak because he took a hit but so far that's because he has been on the front line, he is the only one who has been close to Obito for more than a few seconds.

    So far, Hiruzen has hardly done a damn thing, that doesn't mean he's completely useless though, it is just because a lot is going on right now. Its hard for every character to show their skills when there are this many at such a high level.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    We don't know what Jiraya meant by in awhile, but seeing as he did witness the pure skill of the Rinnegan wielder Nagato, he must be talking about Konohomaru generation and he does seem right in that (then again Gaara might be even more talented than Minato, since he did seemingly become a Kage at a younger age than him).
    You have to remember that timing is a big factor in Gaara becoming Kazekage. The Sandvillage was extremely weak at the time, its Kage had just been killed, and they had just failed in an attempt to destroy Konoha. When Minato was elected the 4th Hokage, Hiruzen Sarutobi was still alive and well, it wasn't a desperate decision to appoint Minato it was well informed and there were other powerful candidates as well. It was even said that Gaara being appointed Kazekage was more of a political move than anything else. Gaara being the Jinnchuuriki of the One Tail was also an important factor. Minato might have been older than some of the Kages but I am willing to bet that there are very few who could beat him. Minato is clearly way above any of the current Kages. He took on Killerbee and A at the same time and didn't seem to be struggling too much. If Gaara as he is now, fought Minato as he was during the 3rd Shinobi World War, there is no doubt in my mind that Minato would win easily. Both are intelligent fighters but I would say Minato is also smarter than Gaara.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    Minato was certainly wise (you can notice that in his speech) and talented, perhaps even smarter than an average ninja, but there are tons of ninja way more intelligent than him.
    There are probably some who are more intelligent but I doubt that there are many. Sasuke for example is considered a genius not only for how powerful he is and how easily he can learn ninjutsu but also as a strategist, we saw example of this in many of his battles. Yet, Minato clearly figures things out faster than Sasuke does and seems to be able to formulate strategies on his feet even more effectively. Minato also does all that without the benefits of the Sharingan.

    Characters like Orochimaru, Itachi, Tobirama, Madara and Hiruzen might be above Minato in intelligence but they are the most intelligent in the series. Even then I would probably argue that Minato is probably equally intelligent in certain areas. For example, Minato almost never makes mistakes in combat, that is something very few other ninja have shown. I will agree though that I don't think he is the most intelligent character overall in the series, nor should he be, I think it would be kind of lame if he was the best at everything. One thing I appreciate about Naruto is that even the most powerful characters are not completely in a class of their own (with the exception of the Rikudou). For example, Madara, Hashirama, and Tobirama were clearly far above almost everyone of their time but each one of them had specific skills that set them apart. While Hashirama was clearly the strongest in terms of raw power, he did not have his brother's sense of logic or Madara's craftiness. Even Itachi, who seemed to be good at everything intelligence, ninjutsu, genjutsu, taijutsu etc. clearly had physical limitations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    When they say genius (the most overused title in this series), most of the time (if not always) they mean one at being a ninja, at ninjutsu, jutsu over all.
    Not exactly, I think the reason 'genius' is so overused is because it refers to a variety of things. For example, Kimimaro was considered a genius because he was born with an innate ability that no one else in his clan possessed. Neji was considered a genius because he was able to learn many of his clan's techniques on his own when even the main branch members, such as Hinata and Hanabi, were far beneath him. Orochimaru was considered a genius because of his intellect and scientific knowledge and the number of jutsu he had learned/created. Shikamaru is considered a genius because he is able to plan and formulate strategies. All of these characters were exceptional in different ways. There are many different types of genius but one cannot deny that these people were each significantly above the average in at least one way. Shikamaru is nothing special in Taijutsu, Ninjutsu, or Genjutsu but he is a genius strategist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    One that quickly and easily learns and adapts jutsu, using them with skill above the others, often is called genius. It's obvious that Minato might be a genius at ninjutsu, but he is not-so-smart at naming the jutsu, as it was presented in the recent chapters (basically, most of the time, a genius is a genius at something, rather than an over all genius).
    Yes, although I would say there are a few polymaths, most of the geniuses are only such in one or two areas.

    I don't really think naming Jutsu with silly names has anything to do with Minato's level of genius. Minato coming up with absurd names for his techniques is just a personality quirk. Tobirama disses Minato's names because he is far more serious and puts far more value in practicality. Minato is very intelligent but he was Jiraiya's student and I think it makes sense for a bit of that silliness to have rubbed off on him a bit.

    One thing I will admit, that has disappointed me about Minato is learning just how few of his techniques are original. Early on in the series Minato seemed to be one of the best jutsu inventors out there. He had the Dead Demon Seal, the Eight Trigrams Seal, the Rasengan, and the Flying Thundergod. Now we have learned that he learned both the Dead Demon Seal and the Eight Trigams from Kushina, and he basically copied the Flying Thundergod from Tobirama. So the only really original technique he has is the Rasengan. Sure he has a few other time space techniques but they all seem to be basic variations of the flying thundergod. Tobirama seems to have way more original techniques of his own invention. Minato being a brilliant jutsu creator is really a part of Minato that I wish Kishimoto had kept intact. So in that respect I am a bit disappointed with Minato.

  6. #46
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    When I re-read the current chapter, I find it Dumbfounding to see how or why there is a rush to diminish Minato's intelligence or fighting prowess. If anything at all, I see where he has made/spear headed attacks on a near Rikudo strength opponent. In one of Zero's posts, he seems to be attributing the thought bubble with Vertical dots as being clueless. I have to dissagree with that. Minato as I see him in this Chapter is a very humble man who is willing to step back and follow the lead of Tobirama. I interprete the Vertical dots as sighs, in Minato's case he is taking in and assessing the the situation.

    Minato is also a guy who takes responsibility. He blames himself for not recognizing Obito, believing that had he done so a lot of what went wrong may have turned out different. This is simply the Meek and Humble nature of the Man, that Jiraiya mentioned.

    I think sadly that downgrading Minato now, inspite of Jiraiya's clear praise of Minato's intelligence, and his battles vs Aee and Bee, and his Manhandling the Fox, is just wrong and leaping to conclusions. Let's remember how some of us also lept to conclusions regarding Tobirama. Why, a few chapters ago, Tobirama ws seen as The Devil Who Caused all the Tragedies by punishing the Uchiha, and Now Suddenly he is the Boss Ninja who is smarter tahn Minato.

    My take is that this fight is not yet over, andMinato is here for a reason, and I do think he will strike a decisive blow on Obito. Lets no rush to conclusions, but lets asess the actions taken, and wait for the fight to finish.

    I am not perfect and I defy you to prove otherwise
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  7. #47
    Appearance of Darkness Aga bomBa's Avatar
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    @ Zero..

    What would you say about Itachi Uchiha.. while talking about geniuses?

    This are his stats; Nin 5 - Tai 4.5 - Gen 5 - Int 5 - Str 3.5 - Spe 5 - Sta 2.5 - Sea 5 = 35.5 total.

    Strenght and Stamina are a Physical part, so we can't count that while judging his " Intellect ".. his intellect and overall jutsu skills are high- top calibur. The diffirence would be Tai, but I do believe, that Kishimoto downgraded Minato in these last chapters.. just to create a comparison with Naruto. You've mentioned the battle with Tobi during the second kyuubi attack.. the way how Minato acted, analzyed and took action was from high performance, which was not even MATCHED later on, when other shinobi's were 1vs1 with Tobi. Minato did it in seconds..

    For Me, Minato's question " You wanted to be a Hokage " and Juubito's response.. was basically how Naruto would have acted if Konohamaru would turn EVIL. Minato has a good/big heart and feels quilty for the outcome that he's witnessing right now.

    I'm getting the feeling that kishi has it very difficult, in letting characters like " Tobimara and minato " shine together, without downgrading a character. Untill now, we've all waited for knowing what Tobimara could do and what his overall skills were. Minato had already shined in previous chapters.. I can bet that Sarutobi will show us what he's all capable off, when Tsunade/Oro arrives at the battlefield ( every Hokage seems to get his reunion with their old friends/students ). Tobimara seems to be, a genius shinobi like Minato, Itachi, Orochimaru.. so eventually, we must ask ourselfs: IS KISHIMOTO downgrading a character ( Minato ), OR is it because we are witnessing many geniuses together.. which makes us THINK that Minato is being downgraded, all because we never read that Tobimara was praised as being a " genius ".

    So, being a " Genius " can be pointed out diffirent ways.. Minato was highly talented in jutsus (example Sasuke) and his guts/desire to succeed was the fiercest, so that gave him the title " Genius ". But correct me if I'm wrong; both Itachi and Orochimaru were being called Genius also.. what would have happened if they were standing next to Minato right now, fighting Juubito?
    ... You're Dead 2 Me Now ...

  8. #48
    The French Tickler pratesh's Avatar
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    Maybe the Hokages should shuffle in and out who takes on Madara so that Hashi can get free from time to time to lay down some sage damage as well.

    I expect naruto might use the "combination" ability for his clones to absorb sage chakra for the other characters(Like fukasaku tried to do).

  9. #49
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    In one of Zero's posts, he seems to be attributing the thought bubble with Vertical dots as being clueless. I have to dissagree with that.
    No, I'm not, lol, where did you read that . I was rather talking about Minato being shocked by everything, to the point that he cases his analysis or never even begins them, thus making him a slow thinker, plus Tobirama's comment about Minato and Naruto being mentally challenged is pretty hardcore (I wonder if isn't another overboard translated sentence from mangastream translators...).

    There is a bit of a strange stretching going on in this chapter, I mean sure Minato is concentrated on the past and Obito, to the point that he might not have noticed the Frog's attack not being absorbed (well ninja are not killing machines but humans after all), then he notices that Naruto entered Sage Mode, but still doesn't connect the dots (I guess it happens), after the attack, he is more shocked that Naruto obtained Sage Mode, rather than the fact that an attack finally worked (seriously dumbfounded), thus overlooking an important moment and vital informations. Basically, he concentrates on the wrong things and doesn't gain much from this battle, in other words, basing solely on this chapter, I wouldn't call him an analytical character, that other chapters seemed to point him out to be, perhaps even on the contrary (it is quite strange).

    It's hard to say what Kishi is doing. It's possible that he is re-imaging Minato right now (he made quite a bit of changes in this last arc, so it wouldn't be that surprising), or he just made a sloppy chapter, who knows.

    Would Naruto, the talk-no-jutsu master, really call his opponent a "little shit" ? Could this be another overboard translated sentence ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aga bomBa View Post
    So, being a " Genius " can be pointed out diffirent ways.. Minato was highly talented in jutsus (example Sasuke) and his guts/desire to succeed was the fiercest, so that gave him the title " Genius ". But correct me if I'm wrong; both Itachi and Orochimaru were being called Genius also.. what would have happened if they were standing next to Minato right now, fighting Juubito?
    Surprisingly, this was actually already somewhat answered in this manga, since it came down to the fact that Oro was a Genius among the average, while Itachi was the Genius among the elite (the Uchiha).

    Also, let's not forget that Rock Lee is also a genius, at hard work .

    It could be even said that this manga simply uses the title genius, as a higher level of talent.



  10. #50
    Scanlator POW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kuroihikari View Post
    That would predicate on everyone there not knowing what kinds of attacks sage summons do (i.e. senjutsu). Someone who has access to information like a Hokage-level ninja does who has encountered sage summons would probably know that sage summons use sage energy attacks. Especially Jiraiya's top student, who also could summon the frogs.

    Tobirama's advantage was that he figured out what Naruto was making in his hand.
    The frogs are not in sage mode all the time and not all their attacks are sage infused. It's just because he had ample time to build up sage energy and try the attack before the summon ran out of time.






    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    When I re-read the current chapter, I find it Dumbfounding to see how or why there is a rush to diminish Minato's intelligence or fighting prowess. If anything at all, I see where he has made/spear headed attacks on a near Rikudo strength opponent .....

    - I'm not surprised this happens every time we see a "another " character shine! I mean don't you remember when the 4th Raikage showed up & people were overreacting guessing he may be stronger than the 4th Hokage.

    - People did the same thing to Sasuke complaining he was spamming Susanoo too much during the 5 Kage-summit fight but now we see Madara spamming it just the same.

    - There is always a tendency to overreact when another character shows off a new jutsu/tactic that make them seem cool. The reason Itachi never fights Madara was probably to maintain his cool image otherwise he would be in similar situation looking weak and less in control than we expect of him.


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