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  1. #21
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    Hmmmmm, looks like Obito won't be the last boss, after all, only a "hero" can power up through guts and power of love, not the last boss . I'm starting to wonder if perhaps So6p hadn't done the same, you know, rather than owning Jyubi with power and technique, he suppressed it with his will power alone and only after sealing it, started studying and discovering things (he is implied to be like Naruto). Perhaps it will remain as a final motto, that will power is the most important thing (at least it was like that until that destiny thing and prophecies popped out, completely diminishing the value of will power, when it turned out that everything was destined and set in stone... almost ).

    Looks like Madara's fan isn't So6p's staff after all (I wonder who made it then ?).

    Since So6p's staff and necklace were revealed to be part of transformation or jutsu, then about his sword ? Was it also a special jutsu (like Sasuke's Kagetsuci Sword ?) ? Or only a special item, since he has a scabbard on his back ?:
    Spoiler!

    Then again, it's possible that Obito merely took the form of So6p that he himself imagined, or took from bijuu's memories , in order to show that he himself is now like So6p.



  2. #22
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    @ARTIFICE,

    To be precise, Kishi has not connected the RINNEGAN to the Juubi, ONLY the Sharingan. Now Kabuto said that the next level after the EMS is the Rinnegan, but that was Kabuto's saying. The Juubi's Eyes seem like Rinnegan and Sharingan Superimposed, but the rings in its Sharingan could be separate and different from the Sage's Rinnegans.

    You are correct that the SO6P could be an Uzumaki, but why then does he resemble Minato, and Why does Minato not have red hair? I guess that the Resemblance to Minato could be a coincidence and Minato's line could be dubious, but When Naruto transformed into Kyuubi Mode, he looked like Minato to where Kakashi thought it was Minato temporarily, Why?

    I hope Kishimoto does plan to make sense of all these questions, and doesn't weasel out by not answering them.

    As For Minato's Yin Chakra,

    I don't think Minato has used the Yin Chakra at all, he probably never planned to use it. He may have wanted to give it to Naruto and has been waiting for the right time.

    I suspect the present Minato wants to give Naruto is more than just the Kyuubi's Yin Chakra. He may be planning on transferring part of his own Yin to Naruto Via the Kyuubi's Yin, and Remember that the Yin is the Mental and Spiritual Energy. he may have been working on imprinting his own Mental Energy into the Kyuubi's Yin. (I hope).

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  3. #23
    Scanlator POW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    That is why it's strange, it seems half-assed even, because if it is similar, then he should assume that it is also a blood line expansion (for example using 3 or 4 elements, but different combination than Dust release), not that it uses more than 4 elements, which means that it uses all 5 (or 6). It's like Kishi wanted to point out that Obito is using all of the elements at the same time, but was too lazy to come up with a good way to present it and instead of using someone with a special sensing capabilities or eyes to notices it, he used Hiruzen to made a guess that made little to no sense basing on his experience and perception capabilities.
    - You have to understanding that Nature manipulation has different sides to it. Just as as Fire element has a black nature in Amaterasu and Lightning in Black Lightning element the others also have similar transformations. It has to do which altering their composition similarly to how a Bijuu bomb works.

    - Dust release is combing 3 elements of Fire, Earth & Wind to form a new element "Destructive Dust" near molecular sized element

    - Obito's new black fluid element could be called "Annihilation jutsu". It probably uses all 5 elements simultaneously and transforms them into black nature element.







    Quote Originally Posted by aggeroff View Post
    Yay ^_^, Obito is actually controlling himself, step in the right direction there man. But it looks like he still cares about Kakashi and Minato, After all, he forgot them after he forgot himself.... He really doesn't like himself does he?
    Hence why I referenced Tetsu from Akira similar personality both seeing themselves as losers who became intoxicated with new found powers that eventually overwhelmed them.


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  4. #24
    Senior Member Greed-sama's Avatar
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    Ok I keep reading things about Minato's attack, am I the only one that thinks we haven't seen the attack yet? This whole Obito getting ripped apart was all in his mind, hence why when it comes to Rin he stops his mind getting ripped apart pulls himself together and takes control.
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  5. #25
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greed-sama View Post
    Ok I keep reading things about Minato's attack, am I the only one that thinks we haven't seen the attack yet? This whole Obito getting ripped apart was all in his mind, hence why when it comes to Rin he stops his mind getting ripped apart pulls himself together and takes control.
    The correct wording is that Minato's super duper attack "failed", twice in a row. As much as he was owning Obito on easy level (the genin initiation), normal (some sparing around chunin level ?), hard mode (the Kyubi attack night), he already have failed to deliver, while being in Kyubi Chakra Mode, his master? finisher, twice. Not to forget that when the level went up to "nightmare" he had to be finger pointed that his ass was already handed to Obito before he even noticed. I guess a genius, in top, kyubi empowered condition, with unlimited life and energy regeneration, life and death experience, is simply no much for the current Obito.

    As most ultimate attacks have in common, they almost never hit, which I wouldn't mind hitting, because Obito would still probably recover from it quickly even if it did a mayor damage (he blew up half of his body and was still alright). Story and character wise, there is no reason for it not to hit, unless it can really take him out in one move (which probably isn't the case, otherwise what would have been the point of devising a copy of the bijuu bomb then ?).

    Well, I guess when you can't beat a secret boss on nightmare level by yourself, you get help from your friends, who themselves have max (kage) level and simply gang up on it :p. Most people should be able to guess what awards await after this :p. Then again his area attacks are pretty one-shot kills, so...


    Anyway, from the looks of it So6p himself had white hair after becoming a jinchuriki, since, from what Naruto said, Obito was using a sealing jutsu from the beginning, thought it might also show that Obito was pushing himself to the limit and that's why his hair turned white (so if Kakashi's hair had a different color, then his hair would also become white at the end of the Pain fight from the looks of it).



  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    @ARTIFICE,

    To be precise, Kishi has not connected the RINNEGAN to the Juubi, ONLY the Sharingan. Now Kabuto said that the next level after the EMS is the Rinnegan, but that was Kabuto's saying. The Juubi's Eyes seem like Rinnegan and Sharingan Superimposed, but the rings in its Sharingan could be separate and different from the Sage's Rinnegans.
    Yes, but my understanding is that the Rinnegan is just a highly evolved Sharingan or rather, the Sharingan is just a devolved Rinnegan. We know that the Elder son had some extremely powerful eyes (perhaps the Rinnegan but if not eyes that were close in power) it was said that the Elder son inherited the Sages powerful eyes (which resembled a swirl in the picture that was shown). My guess is that these eyes were much like the Eternal Mankeyou very powerful but without the sages physical power to power them (which went to the younger brother) they were slightly weaker than the Rinnegan. The Elder son eventually mated with someone from another clan, giving birth to the Uchiha clan. Their children had strong eyes but because their blood was not pure those eyes were weaker, the sharingan. Overtime the bloodline became diluted and eventually the regular sharingan needed to be activated in stages and was only activated by strong members of the clan. This was around the time that Madara and his Brother rose to power and pushed the sharingan to its limits. Madara is eventually created the Eternal Mangekyou by taking his brother's eyes (combining their power). Madara obtained eyes similar to the Elder Son but he could not recreate the powers of the Sage without the other half of the bloodline. He eventually obtained that bloodline and thus evolved his Eternal Mangekyou into the Rinnegan.

    I think that the Juubi's eyes resemble a cross between the Rinnegan and Sharingan because the are both derived from it. If the Juubi's eye was merely a sharingan it would probably look like a sharingan. It can't be a coincidence that the Juubi clearly seems to possess the bloodlines of both the Uchiha and the Senju. I think Hashirama's wood release was part a product of a similar devolution. The Senju all seem to have high chakra levels and strength but only Hashirama had the wood release. I think that is because the Senju mixed with other clans more than the Uchiha did so their blood was less pure and thus more of their bloodline was lost. Hashirama was the only one who was able to rediscover the lost power of his bloodline. As we have seen with other Jinnchuuriki many of them inherit powers that are similar to those of their bijuu even after they have been separated.

    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    You are correct that the SO6P could be an Uzumaki, but why then does he resemble Minato, and Why does Minato not have red hair? I guess that the Resemblance to Minato could be a coincidence and Minato's line could be dubious, but When Naruto transformed into Kyuubi Mode, he looked like Minato to where Kakashi thought it was Minato temporarily, Why?
    I don't think that the Sage of Six Path's resembles Minato at all. They only look similar when they are covered by the Kyuubi cloak. I think that the Kyuubi cloak is a product of the Uzumaki's sealing techniques, just like the chakra chains and the 4 element seal. The symbols on the Kyuubi cloak look like seals, I think that the Sage of Six Path's used a similar seal to control the Juubi when it was sealed inside him and that is why the people who have the cloak look like him. Other than the cloak though I don't really see any physical resemblance between Minato and the Sage. Kakashi thought that Naruto resembled Minato because he is Minato's son and because of the way he moved (like a yellow flash). Kakashi had experience Minato appearing out of nowhere as a yellow flash to save the day, when Naruto did it Kakashi was immediately reminded of his teacher and he had never seen Naruto do anything to compare until that moment.

    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    I hope Kishimoto does plan to make sense of all these questions, and doesn't weasel out by not answering them.
    Agreed, that is why I think there will be another arc. There are still too many questions that have yet to be answered and I really have trouble seeing how they could be answered during the course of this fight. We have learned a hell of a lot since this war started but there are still a ton of questions and I don't think it is Kishimoto's style to leave a ton of questions unanswered. Time will tell though.

    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    As For Minato's Yin Chakra,

    I don't think Minato has used the Yin Chakra at all, he probably never planned to use it. He may have wanted to give it to Naruto and has been waiting for the right time.

    I suspect the present Minato wants to give Naruto is more than just the Kyuubi's Yin Chakra. He may be planning on transferring part of his own Yin to Naruto Via the Kyuubi's Yin, and Remember that the Yin is the Mental and Spiritual Energy. he may have been working on imprinting his own Mental Energy into the Kyuubi's Yin. (I hope).
    Maybe, but that leaves the question of the Kyuubi cloak. Minato has been using the Kyuubi cloak since he arrived on the battlefield, so he must be using it for something (perhaps just a speed and strength upgrade). The cloak seems to be a technique that stabilizes the Kyuubi's power. I agree that there is probably more to Minato's gift than just the Kyuubi's Yin half though. It could be any of a hundred things but I suspect that it will have something to do with his Uzumaki heritage. Minato was not an Uzumaki but he seemed to know many of their sealing techniques, I think that he knows something about the connection between the Sage and the Uzumaki clan that will help Naruto master the Kyuubi's power even further but give him power without it.

    I still think that in the end Naruto should be separated from the Kyuubi. I think that Naruto's evolution has always been a balance of improving upon himself and learning to use the Kyuubi. Lately Naruto has been relying a lot on the Kyuubi's power so I think that soon he should have to learn how to fight without it. I think that Naruto needs to learn more about Sage mode and about the powers of the Uzumaki clan. Ultimately I think it is the things that Madara has ignored that will be most significant in bringing Madara down. Madara has put all of his focus on powerful bloodline, and the power of the Juubi. The full powered Juubi was still defeated by the Sage of the Six Path's who at the time probably didn't have any bloodline. I think that in order to defeat Madara and finally tame the Juubi Naruto needs to do it without the Kyuubi and without and bloodlines.

  7. #27
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    @ artifice,

    If the thesis of Naruto is that The guy who has guts not to give up...(Naruto..SO6P?) triumphs over all, then that would prove shallow and inadequate in the light of the story itself.

    It could well be that the SO6P's main attribute is the Guts etc, but he still needed special sealing techniques, and a super powerful life force, in order to take on the Juubi.

    In otherwords, the Concept of not giving up is fine, but it doesn't hold up under scrutiny, Naruto would still require being special, so would the sage. If then they were special due to being Uzumakis, then why not specialness due to being born with Rinnegans. We just swapped one specialness for another.

    Anyways, I can only hope that Kishi gives the manga a deseving end.

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  8. #28
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    @ artifice,

    If the thesis of Naruto is that The guy who has guts not to give up...(Naruto..SO6P?) triumphs over all, then that would prove shallow and inadequate in the light of the story itself.

    It could well be that the SO6P's main attribute is the Guts etc, but he still needed special sealing techniques, and a super powerful life force, in order to take on the Juubi.

    In otherwords, the Concept of not giving up is fine, but it doesn't hold up under scrutiny, Naruto would still require being special, so would the sage. If then they were special due to being Uzumakis, then why not specialness due to being born with Rinnegans. We just swapped one specialness for another.

    Anyways, I can only hope that Kishi gives the manga a deseving end.
    Huh ? Isn't it the other way around ? Wasn't the first part of the story basically screaming that you can do special things, without being special, thanks to your strong will and guts and that bloodline and fate doesn't determine your course (wasn't that what the Neji and Garaa and even Sasuke fights were all about ?) ? Isn't the second part of the story that screams that you can't do special things without being born special and that everything is predetermined the thing that made this story shallow (basically denying what the previous part presented)?

    I think that showcasing that when there is a will, there is a way, would in fact be adequate with the story. The whole point of the Bijuu being discriminated, hated and used as tools, is because there was no one that willed to learn about them, no one that wanted to understand them, that tried to see them in another light. The whole point that Senju x Uchiha was possible, because there was a will to form it, a will to seek it, proving that it is possible to understand one another, but first there has to be a will to even try ?

    So6p might have been originally a normal human. It's also possible that he fought/met Jyubi multiple times, each time learning by observing it, growing and coming up with strategies to fight it for example, rather than being all powerful from the beginning, he might have claimed it all through his sheer will and determination and in time proven to be capable of taking it down.



  9. #29
    Senior Member Kenny Bones's Avatar
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    I think, and hope, that it's Minato's bloodline that makes both Minato and Naruto look like that in the chakra cloak. The ginkaku brothers didn't look like that. Either did any of the other nine-tails jinchurikis, as far as we've seen.

    That would make Minato and Naruto special But, if you're right, that means it's only the biju chakra that takes care of the transformation. And that's where Obito's resemblence of the sage comes in. If he had the kyubi chakra cloak as well now, he'd look almost exactly like the sage.

    But then again, that doesn't make Naruto or Minato special does it? I'd hoped Minato came from a special lineage. And that's why both Minato and Naruto look like they do in the chakra cloak. But that hypothesis kinda went out of the window after this chapter.

    Edit: Or? Obito is related to the sage of six paths, he is an Uchiha after all. I'd really like to see Obito with the chakra cloak from Kurama. Just to see if it would react like that to him. Or if it's just Minato and Naruto it reacts like that towards.

  10. #30
    Senior Member Nano's Avatar
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    The image of the sage we have seen where he is standing in front of the Jyuubi with the staff held up could be explained by saying that the image we see is actually in the Sage's mind, when he is fighting the Jyuubi for control of its chakra - like Naruto had to do with Kurama.

    Sealing the Jyuubi may follow a progression - first when it is sealed within you it will try to overwhelm you, but this can be stopped with a really strong will. If you survive this you can use the black liquid technique and various others combined with massive amount of power by directly tapping off the Jyuubi - currently how we see Obito now. Then the next step could be that you have to try to steal the Chakra of the Jyuubi like Naruto did with Kurama by defeating it in battle - this is where we saw the image of the Sage with the staff in front of the Jyuubi. Once this has been completed then you are in total mastery and now see the secrets of chaka so you can then do all the crazy Sagey stuff like make the Bijuu's, Sage weapons, etc. This is the level Obito will have to reach in order to use all the Chakra to make the Infinite T.

    Just an idea trying to explain what we currently know.
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