Page 6 of 7 FirstFirst ... 4 5 6 7 LastLast
Results 51 to 60 of 65
  1. #51
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    3,885
    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    Zero, If Hichigo had taken over, Ichigo would have turned into a hollow Flat Out, and this had happened to other Shinigami who didn't benefit from Urahara's treatment, we also saw/heard the same from the Vizards.

    What i am saying is that Hichigo did not consider Ichigo himself and only wanted to control it's own fate even if it meant that Ichigo became a Hollow and essentially "die" or be put to death. I am not even sure that Hichigo has really accepted ichigo, it Has accepted that Ichigo is the Boss, but that is not the same as accepting him as a person. At the same time, it's fair to say that OMZ came to accept Ichigo as a person, and stopped trying to treat/use him as a tool all by himself.
    Well, Whitey was always different from those Hollows in Vizards. OMZ mentions the time that Ichigo turned full Hollow (against Ulq), as one of the times that Whitey came to Ichigo's rescue. Plus at the end, he returned Ichigo to normal, even though, he could have recovered only his external injuries without closing the hole, thus remaining as the one in control, yet he didn't do it.

    Also, what's interesting, Ishin mentions that acquiring the Hollow Mask as one of the points that Ichigo draw out techniques from his Zanpakutou by force (in the tunnel). Yeah, looks like Ichigo was seriously the only one that didn't know.



  2. #52
    Senior Member kuroihikari's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    4,622
    Quote Originally Posted by kiduka View Post
    Thanks for the explanation but I know all that, my post was referring to Zero's comment about "Tensa Zangetsu" since his the one who confuses me.
    I'm sorry, my point was drowned in the post.

    My main point was, Tensa Zangetsu is the younger version of the Juha Bach Copy (OMZ) that is inside Ichigo. So, it had nothing to do with the Juha Bach that is outside.

  3. #53
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Fargo, North Dakota USA
    Posts
    6,939
    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    Well, Whitey was always different from those Hollows in Vizards. OMZ mentions the time that Ichigo turned full Hollow (against Ulq), as one of the times that Whitey came to Ichigo's rescue. Plus at the end, he returned Ichigo to normal, even though, he could have recovered only his external injuries without closing the hole, thus remaining as the one in control, yet he didn't do it.

    Also, what's interesting, Ishin mentions that acquiring the Hollow Mask as one of the points that Ichigo draw out techniques from his Zanpakutou by force (in the tunnel). Yeah, looks like Ichigo was seriously the only one that didn't know.
    Hichigo's behaviour changed after he grudgingly accepted Ichigo, and besides OMZ was in full control by then (I think). I also think that Ichigo made some breakthroughs at the end of the vizard training. Before that time, Ichigo had become too scared to use the mask because of fear of Hichigo taking over.

    I am not perfect and I defy you to prove otherwise
    Growing Old Gracefully is an Oxymoron ... Mostly Moron !

  4. #54
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    3,885
    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    Hichigo's behaviour changed after he grudgingly accepted Ichigo, and besides OMZ was in full control by then (I think). I also think that Ichigo made some breakthroughs at the end of the vizard training. Before that time, Ichigo had become too scared to use the mask because of fear of Hichigo taking over.
    He certainly was protecting his host at least, all the times the mask appeared on his chest to protect him from mortal blows (you would think that OMZ would react and use Blood Arts, yet it is the Hollow that appears to save the day). Or all the times he took over before Ichigo was about to die from incoming or already present fatal blows (Byakuya, Ulq and Ulq again). All the training (at first seemingly forced to, but it seems to be a lie, seeing as he himself is teaching Ichigo even where there is no OMZ around at the Vizard Training).

    Remember when Hichigo was saying something about OMZ training Ichigo while he can, because that power will soon be his (around the Kenpachi fight) ? It looks like he actually meant the power that OMZ was suppressing, since there was no other power to size then (Ichigo's body is not really power so that couldn't be it). You can certainly say that his behavior changed towards OMZ, this can be especially seen at the Dangai Training.

    From the looks of it, Bach was seemingly wrong, the memories have awakened long ago, it's just that OMZ didn't feel like helping Ichigo it seems.

    Let's not forget that Hichigo himself is like a representation of Ichigo's instinct and destructive urges, so technically it's not that Ichigo is being controlled by them, rather he let's them roam free (according to TZ, what Ichigo was really afraid, was of his destructive urges pushing away his reason and Ichigo engulfing himself in the chaos). Power does do that to people and it normally doesn't have personality.



  5. #55
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Fargo, North Dakota USA
    Posts
    6,939
    The only (main) thing I disagree with is the Hichigo does not represent Ichigo's baser instinct. Whitey's Own Murderous instinct have tainted it, even if that has softened somewhat. Whitey is in there too.

    I am not perfect and I defy you to prove otherwise
    Growing Old Gracefully is an Oxymoron ... Mostly Moron !

  6. #56
    Prick List: Gaara, Bee Genesis 1.0's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Baltimore, MD
    Posts
    845
    Whitey and OMZ provided balance. Good parenting isn't all concern and soft words, the disciplinarian plays a role as well, and that's what Whitey was. Paul, you say Ichigo feared to use his powers for fear of the Hollow taking over? I say that was Whitey's way of limiting Ichigo, his method for preventing Ichigo from going farther than he was capable of handling at the time.

    Sometimes no matter how many times you tell your kid not to touch things that are hot, they don't learn till they burn their hands. THAT leaves a lasting lesson that soft words never could. Whitey served as that stove.

    Together, they provided Ichigo with the proper guidance he needed for accessing both halves of his abilities.

    "For I being a poor man, have only my dreams & I have spread them beneath your feet. Tread carefully, for you tread upon my dreams."

  7. #57
    Got to say i did not see this coming, kind of cool though.

  8. #58
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Fargo, North Dakota USA
    Posts
    6,939
    Hi Genesis,

    Remember that Whitey as he/it was designed by Aizen was a very vile thing. It had only one (guess 2) purposes, to Attack Shinigami either to kill them or Hollowify them. Obviously if it was made to hollowify Shinigamis and we saw what that process did to the Vizards before Urahara saved them.

    I guess I am not able to see Whitey as caring for Ichigo. I acknowledge that Hichigo was not Whitey, but I am also saying that the contribution from Whitey was not benevolent.

    I am not perfect and I defy you to prove otherwise
    Growing Old Gracefully is an Oxymoron ... Mostly Moron !

  9. #59
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    3,885
    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    Hi Genesis,

    Remember that Whitey as he/it was designed by Aizen was a very vile thing. It had only one (guess 2) purposes, to Attack Shinigami either to kill them or Hollowify them. Obviously if it was made to hollowify Shinigamis and we saw what that process did to the Vizards before Urahara saved them.

    I guess I am not able to see Whitey as caring for Ichigo. I acknowledge that Hichigo was not Whitey, but I am also saying that the contribution from Whitey was not benevolent.
    No Paul, you still see Whitey the same as those Hollows in Vizards, but they are different. Whitey is a First Generation Hollow made from Shinigami/s (this means that normal hollows were probably inserted into Vizards before it), it was always more akin to Shinigami Powers or a Real Zanpakutou, that's the whole point why it became one and the same with Ichigo's Shinigami Powers, why it was his Zanpakutou. What Genesis says might actually be closer to the truth that one might first think. Not to mention that Whitey, the same as OMZ, spent with Ichigo his whole life, while those Hollows in Vizards appeared forcefully in the middle of Vizards lives, along the time that most of their potential has already been achieved.

    If Whitey really wanted to take over Ichigo, I believe that he would be able to, yet he was doing it slowly while teaching Ichigo, like about Zangetsu (himself), or how Hollow Powers are associated with instinct and that Ichigo needs to accept and master it to obtain control over the Hollowification. He didn't disappear, because he knew that Ichigo needs him, after all, this whole time he was the Real Zanpakutou (I guess that now both of them are real ). There were times that he really could take over Ichigo (in similar fashion, Fusion Zangetsu could have easily defeated Ichigo or hid from him if he wanted to).

    In reality, the fake relationship between OMZ and Ichigo, is what really made awkward and turned it on bad terms the relationship between Whitey/Zangetsu and Ichigo (you can even notice that at the beginning OMZ and Zangetsu didn't really like each other that much, but eventually came to cooperate with each other since both of them had the same goal, to protect Ichigo).

    When you actually think about it, Ichigo was pretty much an asshole towards his Zanpakutou/Whitey. All this time he was using and depending on Zangetsu's (Whitey's) power, but when each time they spoke, Ichigo was trying to destroy him, banish and badmouth him all the time, looking at him with anger, discontent and etc. Yet, Whitey never turned his back on Ichigo because of it, when he needed learning, he taught him, when his life was in danger, he came to his rescue even if forcefully, yet what he always got, was hatred in exchange. It's quite likely that he might even suffered a bit from it, while hiding his emotions behind fake wicked smiles and a mask...



  10. #60
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Fargo, North Dakota USA
    Posts
    6,939
    Yeah Zero (and Genesis), you make a great point I overlooked regarding the generational difference between Whitey and the Vizards, Yet I would quibble with something you said.

    If Whitey/Hichigo was fully Ichigo's Zanpakutou, I don't think it had an option as to whether to teach him and help him. That Anime Zanpakutou rebelion is not Kosher (and I hope it's never adopted by Kubo).

    I am not perfect and I defy you to prove otherwise
    Growing Old Gracefully is an Oxymoron ... Mostly Moron !

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •