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  1. #51
    Senior Member SquadZero's Avatar
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    Well see and that's what kinda makes this a bit frustrating, and in my opinion a pretty sloppy retcon. How Kubo can be so clever with some things like those minute hints he drops into the story literally years before they ever become relevant and then go and get into trouble like this TZ plot mess is bewildering. Here is exactly what I am talking about:

    -Kubo goes extreme makeover fangirl edition for TZ in Ichigo's inner world.

    -TZ merges with hollow(we don't know it's also shinigami power at this time) before Ichigo loses powers.

    -Fast forward to now, OMZ is revealed to be Ichigo's quincy power representation NOT Zangetsu, oh and btw, he has been suppressing most of Zangetsu's real power and only been the primary source of Ichigo's power this whole time.

    -But wait, how does that affect TZ, bankai mode and Masked mode? was he the primary source then? Was he also masquerading as TZ as well? But wait, TZ was giving the hollow more control over Ichigo(before he tamed it). And hold on, if TZ was really OMZ and OMZ was using his quincy power as Ichigo's main source of power that whole time, then shouldn't his quincy side already have been merged with the hollow and thus shinigami powers from back before FGT thus rendering the whole last chapter as moot? And if OMZ wasn't TZ then OMZ wasn't REALLY in full control and suppressing most of Zangetsu's power and he definitely wasn't the primary source of power in bankai and so OMZ was pretty much just full of shit in that last chapter. In which case, I don't see how Ichigo could get much stronger as having full access to a REAL bankai definitely means he has access to most of Zangetsu's power as shikai power can't nearly match bankai.

    ...see where I'm going? It's just so... messy.
    Last edited by SquadZero; 06-13-2013 at 04:44 PM.

  2. #52
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    Yes, messy, but nevertheless, explainable, or simply not all information were yet reveled.

    The fact that OMZ is Quincy Powers, was hinted even at the first meeting. Frankly, it seems that he even talks with the sword under his cape, that is the real Zangetsu (you know, Zangetsu says "he can't hear you..." and OMZ answers "is that so ?"). And all other (mentioned in one of the previous threads). This can also be somewhat confirmed by how fluid the current story goes (and all the inner world meetings that seem to be well planed, at least most of them ).

    I always though that TZ is a separate spirit from OMZ. At first I thought it was that he actually had two separates ones, the first one for Shikai that was more like a teacher (OMZ) and the second one, that was like a true partner, in age and behavior like Ichigo (TZ), much more emotional than the calm OMZ. Now it turns out, the OMZ was never the Shikai, which should make TZ even more separate from OMZ.

    The fact that Shinigami and Hollow powers have fused into one Zanpakutou make sense, because it explains how and why Ichigo lost his Hollow and Shinigami powers after FGT, because they were in reality one and the same as his Zanpakutou that he fused with (so it seems that OMZ wasn't part of the equation).

    The fact that his powers were restricted all along, also explains why FGT was incomplete, since there were still parts of his body that were missing what should be there.

    The fact that OMZ became smaller after releasing the restricted power, would also suggest that he was originally a tiny part of Ichigo's power, but gained in strength by taking over the Zanpakutou (that's what he might have meant by becoming his main source of power). That's why, he can no longer stand by his side, since his power alone now (after letting releasing those that weren't originally his) don't allow it.

    If you ask me, one way to explain everything would be that Ichigo's own power, his Zanpakutou was originally one since birth, but split at the time he was turning into a Hollow under Urahara's shop (the same way as his inner world was braking apart, his Zanpakutou also broke apart). To avoid Ichigo turning into a Hollow, OMZ had to help Ichigo in becoming a Shinigami again, otherwise he would become a hollow and would be killed a second later.

    After that, now that his power split, his Hollow Powers could evolve and grow more freely, than the Shinigami Powers restricted by OMZ, until the moment that they completely broke free (at Byakuya's fight).

    Interesting enough, might be the time that Hichigo was seemingly returning to OMZ after training with Ichigo in the middle of the fight with Kenpachi. It seemed as if he was becoming his leg, but that might not have been the case. It's possible that he was returning to the sword beneath the cape and thus OMZ's leg was reforming itself because the power that was fueling him (making him big in the first place) was again becoming complete, or at very last, in the same place.

    TZ could also be explained by Whitey drawing out of OMZ a portion of the Shinigami part, since after all, it Zangetsu and not OMZ, that was subdued in the Bankai training. The other possibility is that OMZ himself released a part of the suppressed Zan, so that Ichigo could achieve Bankai. It's also possible that Ichigo himself drawn forcefully out Black Zangetsu's power, after all when he was fighting against Whitey (White Zangetsu) in the inner Vizard training, he eyes started glowing, or if you prefer burning with blue/light flame (http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...0-page-19.html). It actually seems that each time this happened he might have been tapping into power of the other suppressed part, by OMZ willing giving it to him, or Ichigo forcing them out.

    Whitey himself often called Ichigo "partner", "king" and also calling himself "Zangetsu", so him turning out to be part of the Real Zangetsu isn't out of nowhere.



  3. #53
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    Zero,

    Oetsu Said, Ichigo's Hollow and Shinigami power are fused when the Hollow entered Ichigo's body. The ONLY WAY to have TZ = Shinigami Powers alone, is to Discount Oetsu's statement.

    TZ can only exist as Shinigami powers alone, if The Hollow and Shinigami powers remained separate.

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  4. #54
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    Zero,

    Oetsu Said, Ichigo's Hollow and Shinigami power are fused when the Hollow entered Ichigo's body. The ONLY WAY to have TZ = Shinigami Powers alone, is to Discount Oetsu's statement.

    TZ can only exist as Shinigami powers alone, if The Hollow and Shinigami powers remained separate.
    The Hollow entered Ichigo's body at birth or before (ventured from Masaki, it is proved by the fact that Ishin's link was now with Ichigo even after Masaki died) and at that point fused with his Shinigami powers, thus already forming a certain basis for his Zanpakutou. Quite interesting is that his Hollow powers were suppressed by Ishin, while his Shinigami powers, by OMZ. It's possible that OMZ wasn't able to later control Hollow, because it was always suppressed mainly by Ishin and he didn't bother to do much (it is seriously messy ).

    Yep, they were one at beginning (mentioned by Fusion Zangetsu and Oetsu), but they separated, quite likely when his inner world started to separate and fall piece by piece, thus separating Zanpakutou as well (it's quite likely that at that time they were split apart). Since they were originally one, they also were able to return to being one for FGT (dangai training), thus becoming Fusion Zangetus, or even quite likely the Real Zangetsu.

    The reason why we didn't see Whitey separately, after the dangai training up until now, might be because they remained as one. The Hollow Powers fused together with a Portion of Shinigami Powers, the rest was still being suppressed (as mentioned by OMZ and that also can be noticed in Ichigo's FGT Form being incomplete), up to now that is, because now, it's going to be full out.



  5. #55
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    Wait, Wait, Wait, there is no mention of any separation.....chapter please...

    Zero, I know that Kubo could pull a twist, and that's probably what you're gunning for, but then we would be in the Bleach Theories margin (I think). Sure I do my own fair share of theories, but We don't need theories to be able to understand/explain what's happened.

    OMZ is a Quincy avatar, it awoke complete and mature, therefore was able to direct Ichigo's Spirit development far ahead of the Shinigami/hollow.

    The Hollow/Shinigami fusion was subsumed by the violent hollow and it acted crazy from the get-go.

    When in a Bankai state, the Quincy changed in appearance. This could be unique to Ichigo since Quincies normally don't have a Bankai. So where normal Shinigami avatars may remain unchanged, a Quincy avatar inside the Shinigami changes.

    We don't need any special theories of Relativity to explain this away.
    Last edited by paulbee; 06-13-2013 at 07:38 PM.

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  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    "was never me it was always your Hollow" - never me, this means that each time Hollow came up, it was beyond OMZ's control and it was Hollow-Zangetsu's will to protect/save Ichigo by taking control.
    You are reading more into some statements than what is actuall said and using that as a justification for your false conclusions, yet disregard other statements that crlearly DO actually have a meaning.

    OMZ saying that "it was never him, but the hollow" just means that not his power, but the hollows power saved Ichigo, not that it was beayond OMZ's control. In this chapter OMZ clearly says that he suppressed Ichigo's shinigami powers and that he sent the hollow out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    If OMZ was sending him, he would say something along the lines of: "Hadn't you noticed, each time I came to your rescue, I was sending/using the Hollow", but he doesn't say that, he mentions that it was all Hollow, never him (at least the parts were only Hollow appeared).
    He also didn't say "Everytime you were in danger the hollow suppressed me and this is why I never came to your help and the hollow came instead of me" The statement is vague, bit it is implied he sent the hollow out.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post

    Ichigo didn't recognize the Form of TZ, because Ichigo never before came to his inner world in Bankai and a part of it was only released in Bankai. That's what he might have meant by you don't recognize this form since you never entered here in Bankai.

    ...

    I already answered the thing about the "form", since it exists even in Shikai, it's just shrouded under OMZ's coat and is only released in Bankai, that's why he says that the doesn't recognize it, because it can only be seen clearly in Bankai.
    If TZ and Ichigo had never met before, then TZ would have said so and the interaction would have been completely different. And it's not even a good explanation why he explicitely used the word "form".


    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    Every inner world person would hate the rain, since it represents sorrow, doubt negative emotions that even affect them, but TZ is the only one so emotional about it, he basically screams that this is not how it should be. OMZ was way more composed than this, while Whitey hides himself behind wicked smiles or a mask.
    That's an assuption without any proof to back it up. The hollow never said he hated the rain, and even if this was true, TZ was talking with Ichigo about this topic as if they had already been talking about it (because they did), referencing a past conversation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    This doesn't make sense. Whitey, a part of his Real Zanpakutou, doesn't transform when he enters Bankai, so why would OMZ, a fake one, transform ? The reason that later on Whitey looks differently (he only changed clothes and weapons at the time of Vizard training when entering Bankai) is because he has grown, evolved as Hollows and Zanpakutou have in common, while, as we see now, OMZ hasn't changed at all, thus he can't be TZ.
    Yea it doesn't make sense because IT IS A SLOPPY RETCON. That's the whole point of this discussion. Even though you like to look at bleach as a mystery manga it really isn't. Of course there are several hints here and there, because the author has some idea of what he wants to do in the future (for example his father being a shinigami, he once said in an interview that he knew it from chapter 1), but more often than not such plot twists are retcons where the author has to think about how to do it without contradicting himself.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    Oetsu says that at the beginning his Hollows powers and Shinigami powers have fused and you know what ? Fusion Zangetsu also mentions that they were originally one, one being (the Zanpakutou), that's why they can return to what they originally were. That's why they are 2 powers, two side of the same coin (the Zanpakutou), while OMZ is a third power, his Quincy Power that took over his Zanpakutou completely at first, but later on the White Part have broken out of his control and kept growing and evolving, while he was still inhibiting the Black Part, only releasing a portion of it for Bankai.
    Oetsu said that white merged with Ichigo's own shinigami powers and became his Zanpakuto. The result is hollow Ichigo, not Fusion Zangetsu. It was never said they had demerged at some point, besides his new asauchi again looks like the hollow and has 0 traits of Tensa Zangetsu. And besides it doens't make any sense that his Shinigami powers are named after his Bankai and are not present in the Shikai. And if OMZ and TZ wouldn't be the same person, where was OMZ during that fight and why didn't TZ warn Ichigo about OMZ?


    OMZ and TZ are 100% the same person, there is no doubt about it. It's heavily implied if not outright said several times throughout their match, the similar look also confirmes it, there is an explanation of why he has changed his appearance (that was valid back then), Fusion Zangetsu was a representation of ALL of Ichigo's power (he even said so) thus his quincy powers must have been in there too, TZ never warned him about OMZ and there is not a single hint that suggests that they wouldn't be the same person.

    If something smells like a fish, looks like a fish, tastes like a fish and feels like a fish, then it IS a fish.

  7. #57
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    @Paul, it does sound like a theory. What you are saying is that a Quincy Power Avatar is affected by Shinigami releasing enough power of the Bankai level, thus dramatically changing it's:
    - appearance;
    - mind/personality;
    - emotional state;
    - gives it capabilities to fuse with Hollow part (well this seems OK, seeing as Shinigami part can also fuse with Hollow, the Hollow doesn't stand in opposition to neither of them, so it's should be alright, the problem lies with Shinigami power fusing with it's total opposition, the Quincy, then again Fullbringers are Human and Hollow in one, even though they stand on opposing sides so maybe it is OK after all, hmmm).

    Really, this doesn't sound right. A simpler explanation is that it is a different Spirit and there are hints suggesting this (though we still need to await for a 100% confirmation, unless it is never given).

    Sure there is nothing that states that White Zangetsu and Black Zangetsu split apart at the time Ichigo was transforming into a Hollow under the Urahara Shop, but the thing is, Whitey never appeared before the incident in Urahara'a Shop (the glowing eyes seem to come from the oryginal Zan, seeing as Ichigo could use it when fighting Whitey). Plus seeing as his whole inner world was turning to pieces and separating, saying that the same could have happened with his Zanpakutou doesn't seem that much of a stretch, especially seeing as his Zanpakutou was already lying among those separated parts.

    I think that Kubo will go in that direction, but there are still final details that need to be revealed or interpreted within the manga so that it all makes full sense. The notions and hints do seem right, but there might be something missing in it. For example, adding Ishin to equations seems like might be the key to it.

    OK, let's starts with the facts:
    - Ichigo's Hollow part (inherited from Masaki) was being suppressed by Ishin,
    - OMZ was suppressing Ichigo's Shinigami powers,
    - the Shinigami and Hollow powers were fused since birth.

    Hmmmm, it's quite likely that the Shinigami and Hollow powers have also mixed up with each other. This would explain why does his Black Part gives him a similar boost (with glowing/burning eyes) to what Hollow Powers give, especially at the time when Ichigo was battling those Hollow Powers, so they couldn't be the thing that aided him then, as well as it explains Whitey being a part of Ichigo's Zanpakutou.

    Now then, if they were fused together since birth, then that means that OMZ and Ishin were simply suppressing different parts/powers of Ichigo's Zanpakutou (perhaps Ichigo couldn't even use Kuro Getsuge, until the Hollow was freed from Ishin's shackles). Then the incident under Urahara Shop can be viewed as something that quickened it's growth. Because of this, the part that grew was already beyond Ishin's control and OMZ himself had to take care of it, but him growing even further, and OMZ already having his hands full with the Shinigami part, ended up with Whitey being freed from his shackles (both Ishin's and OMZ's) completely, thus Whitey no longer restricted, becomes Ichigo's main power source (somewhat mentioned by Whitey in the Vizard inner training).

    Now Tensa Zangetsu... Well he does seem different and there are boosts of power that neither come from Hollow and doesn't seem to be Quincy-like (I'm talking about the glowing/burning eyes boost). Thus they have to come from the Shinigami part, the Black Zangetsu.

    Now let's see, the glowing eyes appear certainly in the fight against Kenpachi. There also appears a Hollow Mask Aura (this comes from Whitey), but seeing as the eye also appear in the fight against Whitey (but without the aura) it seems that they come from the Black Zangetsu. Thus, this means that against Kenpachi, OMZ channeled a part of power of Ichigo's Real Zanpakutou, that consisted of both Hollow and Shinigami powers. Yes, back then he had control over both, so it is reasonable. Then the power that Ichigo seemingly forcibly, by instinct, draws against his Hollow Powers, must be the part of his Shinigami Zanpakutou that was drawn out of OMZ's control. Now this could be the moment that TZ took shape, since it was seemingly reaped out of OMZ's control... yes, that's it, when Ichigo plunged the sword into Whitey, he started turning Black, but before he completely transformed, he imploded. This could be how TZ took shape, since Ichigo was channeling the burning eyes back then.



  8. #58
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    @ Zero,

    I said nothing about the personality etc. Just the appearance. I think the personality of TZ is consistent with the Change inOMZ seen in the most recent chapter. OMZ had been changing or had changed his attitude long before we saw TZ.

    t's really imminently reasonable. Ichigo Changes Soul Society itself, even Old Man Yamamoto Genrussai gave his own Reiatsu to help Jumpstart Ichigo's Power. Same thing happened to OMZ. As he himself said, he had seen Ichigo develop into a great Shingami (over the years), and by the time Ichigo saw him in Bankai State as TZ, his attitude and affection for Ichigo had changed him naturally. He was not changed by simply being in Bankai.

    NOTE ZERO:

    Please excuse and forgive if I am missing some of you points. I am reading in a rush, and may be repeating myself, and mayy seem to be ignoring some of your good deductions. I'll be able to settle down and read more carefully later on tonight.

    I am not perfect and I defy you to prove otherwise
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  9. #59
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    ^ I'm not sure, even now when he say his goodbye(?), he is still composed, even when he cries those are manly tears, a few drops, not "cry me a river thing" that happens at the end of Dangai training, neither does he scream at Ichigo when there is no danger to him, unlike TZ bashing Ichigo for how the inner world ended. Though it could be reasoned which that then it was for good (yeah right), but now he is only stepping out, in case they were one and the same.

    Still, the possibility of OMZ and TZ being the same is quite slim. The thing is how to explain it now , there, as always, are many or at least a few possibilities (if the story is written properly, then there is always a way to explain things without breaking it, unless the artist writes himself into a corner, then the only way to move forward is to brake apart some things and change them which I don't like too much ). If he wanted to make sure that Ichigo will keep going forward and be able to top Aizen, the first thing to do would be to fully release the suppressed power, which didn't happen (assuming that the flowing pure burning energy has something to do with his Zanpakutou).

    If it is indeed as he said in this chapter, OMZ cannot teach Ichigo Zanpakutou Techniques, while TZ can and knows exactly what it is. Assuming that Final Getsuga Tenshous is indeed a Zanpakutou Technique, it cannot be taught by OMZ, no, he shouldn't even know what it is.

    If OMZ could have simply fused with Whitey, then why didn't he do it at the start ? If he could do it, he wouldn't need to pretend to be his Zan, since he then would be a part of it, he wouldn't need to constantly take care of suppressing it's power, since it would be his to use as he want, he wouldn't need to risk that Ichigo would become a Hollow, if he could simply dominate it by fusing with it.

    When Ichigo mentions that only OMZ should be there, he doesn't respond. He even bashes Ichigo for saying such a thing, even though he just taught him how to breath. Sure, he says that he is a Form of... Something, but of what ? He doesn't say, only that this form can be witnessed only when entering in Bankai (that he only appears there ? or that he changes ? he doesn't say). When asked if he is "Zangetsu", he answer that he isn't, that he is "Tensa Zangetsu". It wouldn't matter for OMZ, if he was recognized as "Zangetsu", "Old Man" or "Tensa Zangetsu", as long as Ichigo would believe that he is his Zanpakutou. After fusing, they should be technically three parts of One Being, from Hollow-Shinigami-Quincy, even if assuming that Hollow-Shinigami is inseparable, there is still mention of there existing a Hollow part, so why wouldn't there be mention of Shinigami part ?


    Well anyway, Ichigo's new Bankai, or only it's powers, will now be more like that of Yamamoto's or Hitsugaya's. If that sword, clad in burning energy, is any indication of what it can do, then just imagine how it will look when the same thing happens to Ichigo's clothes, that become part of his Bankai. Hmmmm, he might look like a Fenix now, seeing as his tail that is split in four, will burn now . Or maybe it will be more akin to that two headed dark bird ?



  10. #60
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    ' I wonder how Ichigo himself will look in Bankai. I think we can assume that the Mask days are over. When we see Ichigo's Asauchi, it's mouth is just teeth, but then FGT Ichigo also had his mouth covered.

    ZERO,

    I read more from your post. The thesis is that TZ was formed from Ichigo's Shinigami powers that had grown beyond OMZ's control. I do have to acknowledge that possibility, but that leaves another question,

    1) Where is TZ now? Did he refuse with the Whitey Zangetsu mix?

    2) Where was OMZ when Ichigo was talking to TZ?

    3) What happened to OMZ when Ichigo was in FGT state

    4) Why does TZ

    WHy does he Look dressed the same, and shaped just like OMZ, except for the Hood, the youth, the eyes (?). We don't even know about the eyes since OMZ always wore glasses. LOL!



    It would be arrogant and presumptuous for me to claim that I know what Kubo's Up to, but I am disinclined to believe he had this all laid out from the beginning of Bleach.

    All I can say for sure is that Kubo's doing a mighty fine job so far.
    Last edited by paulbee; 06-14-2013 at 04:36 AM.

    I am not perfect and I defy you to prove otherwise
    Growing Old Gracefully is an Oxymoron ... Mostly Moron !

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