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  1. #41
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    @zero,

    No, I'm saying that OMZ controlled the Bankai state, therefore If OMZ did not relinquish that control over Ichigo's Bankai then the Tensa Zangetsu found in the Bankai state must be OMZ in a younger appearance.
    I would rather say portion of his Shinigami Bankai was released, rather than he becoming it himself (beside he would admit that he is the Old Man Z, yet he doesn't do it). Plus Whitey (a part of the Real Zanpakutou), when entering Bankai, didn't change physically, only his weapons and clothes. The reason he later on looks differently is because he have grown and evolved (as mentioned that Zanpakutou are able to). If TZ was his Shinigami part of Zan, but in control of OMZ, why would his personality be different ? Again it makes no sense for them to be the same.



  2. #42
    Senior Member SquadZero's Avatar
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    yeah its pretty obvious that OMZ was not the the source(or at least only source) of Ichigo's bankai power. It clearly had hollow power influence(black getsugas) which now suggests that it contained at least some of the real zangetsu's power. This is further shown by how Ichigo's hollow gained more and more influence the more he used bankai, suggesting OMZ had less and less control.

    That's not to say the Tensa Zangetsu representation was not OMZ pretending to be him... we can't know for sure yet with what we know, but with the apparent control that OMZ had, I would not rule out him being able to change appearance and pretend to be Tensa Zangetsu also.

  3. #43
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    OMZ specifically said that He sent the Hollow when Ichigo's life was threatened, also Ichigo was in Bankai State when his Leveloo 4S extreme Hollow destryed Ulquoirra, this means that while Ichi was in Bankai, OMZ was able to send Hichigo out to fight and save Ichigo.

    1) For OMZ not to be Tensa Zangetsu would have to mean that Zangetsu was not Merged with Hichigo as per Ouetsu. The two are Merged, and had been Merged from the start.

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  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    It doesn't make much sense for them to be the same.

    First of, TZ is silent when Ichigo remarks that only Old Man Z should be here (at this point proving that he himself is not him) two pages:
    Spoiler!


    After that he says that "...it's no surprise that you don't recognize this form":
    Spoiler!

    He might have meant the real Zangetsu, or at least part of Shinigami Zangetsu, who is mostly suppressed in Shikai by OMZ. The reason a part of him is released in Bankai, is because he is likely needed for Bankai. It's a full release, thus to use it, Ichigo needs to have access at least to portions of what his Zan is made (it is made from both, Hollow and Shinigami powers).

    "Are you Zangetsu":
    Spoiler!

    The answer is "no", he is "Tensa Zangetsu", thus neither OMZ or Whitey (he mentions that he is not the Zangetsu/s that Ichigo knows but a different one). The way ha answer it is also important (the clouds are outlined and in bold, suggesting an intimidating serious tone and that face):
    Spoiler!


    He says that the reason their inner world is this way, because Ichigo despaired and cased to walk forward (they all see and experience the same things, so it's no surprise that they are affected by the same thing):
    Spoiler!

    OMZ wouldn't say this line, because OMZ himself inhibits Ichigo's growth as he mentioned in current chapter. Why would he be angry at Ichigo, if it was his own fault ? Thus he cannot be OMZ. He literally forces him to move forward:
    Spoiler!

    while OMZ constantly inhibits him. If OMZ was able to inhibit him further at that point, Ichigo would not went out to fight Aizen, as he was previously ready to give up. Why would OMZ want to pull out the Hollow Part that he himself no longer can control ?

    Here, TZ and Whitey admit to be parts of the same being, which is Ichigo's Zanpakutou, as mentioned by Oetsu:
    Spoiler!


    If that was OMZ, then the Fusion Zangetsu wouldn't say "two parts" but "three". Thus again, TZ and OMZ are not the same.

    In the current chapter, OMZ mentions that what Ichigo wielded, is only/mainly the power that he couldn't suppress and that is White Zangetsu/Whitey:
    Spoiler!

    While the Black Zangetsu/TZ is the power that he released so that Ichigo could achieve Bankai. He also means that this is his True Own Power and not when OMZ was his main power core.

    Also, after looking closer, OMZ is standing on the sword, but he might not necessarily be it's part after all. Perhaps that after giving back True Zangetsu's power, he himself shrunk to his oryginal size/power and now that the True Zangetsu is released, compared to it's power, his own Quincy Power is small. This could also mean that he was himself fueling with it, perhaps in similar fashion that Opie did with that Hollow ?

    Of course let's not forget about different personalities and looks. Your eye color doesn't change with age anyway.

    He said to beat "him" into Submissions and he did, he forced out of Whitey his power and technique (as semi-mentioned by Ishin that all his techniques are drawn by force), the GT, but Ichigo himself never bested OMZ in battle and yet again this was another hint that OMZ was not Zangetsu, since the one beaten into submission was not OMZ, yet Bankai was still obtained.
    Ok I'm way too lazy to dig up all the pages of the various meetings between Ichigo and OMZ, but you just gave the proof, that both are the same perso, yourself.

    Tensa Zangetsu says that it's no surprise Ichigo doesn't recognise this FORM. Not ME, but this FORM which confirms that he is someone that Ichigo has met before, so he is either OMZ or the Hollow. And we know for sure that he is not the hollow for several reasons.

    And in the talk about the water, Tensa Zangetsu mentiones how the rain has finally stopped but the water has sunken his inner world which is a lot worse. Only OMZ had previously mentioned that he hates the rain.

    The reason he claims that his name is Tensa Zangetsu is because Ichigo has entered the inner world in his Bankai state, thus OMZ being transformed into Tensa Zangetsu as well, which made perfectly sense until it was revealed that OMZ is not his Zanaputo's spirit at all. (This is why it's a sloppy retcon)

    And you got the thing about the same parts of the coin completely wrong. If TZ and OMZ were NOT the same person, then the fusion of TZ and the hollow would say that they are 2 parts of 3. But no, they say that they are two parts of the same coin, there is no third part. Back then, we thought that Zangetsu represented his shinigami powers and that Shiro represented the hollow powers. Now we know shiro is the source of the shinigami AND hollow powers (since Ichigo is so unique) and TZ/OMZ is the representation of the quincy powers.

  5. #45
    Senior Member SquadZero's Avatar
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    Can we all just agree that the call to make Tensa Zangetsu take on a new form was a bone-headed move by Kubo probably brought on by a failed attempt to get Hitsuguya-esque fangirl response which is now coming back to bite him in the ass in this retcon? I'm interested to see how or even if Kubo bothers to address that mess or just completely leaves it alone in hopes that everyone won't notice or forget... Either way it seems pretty sloppy.

  6. #46
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    Actually Squad Zero,

    I have no problem with it since Ichigo is Unique, and more importantly no previous facts or data-book facts have been violated /changed. I actually think Kubo is do very very well, (UNLIKE Kishimoto's retcon convulsions).

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  7. #47
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    Just how powerful ichigo is at full power????? is this the prerequisite of the special war potential? because zaraki kenpachi is also described as being so powerful....... just how strong are they.... ichigo was always using a fraction of his power.... zaraki could defeat the most powerful shinigami before he can even hear his swords name...lols just how OP will kubo go with these 2..... and not to mention the other SWP..... mr.aizen sosuke

  8. #48
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    OMZ specifically said that He sent the Hollow when Ichigo's life was threatened, also Ichigo was in Bankai State when his Leveloo 4S extreme Hollow destryed Ulquoirra, this means that while Ichi was in Bankai, OMZ was able to send Hichigo out to fight and save Ichigo.

    1) For OMZ not to be Tensa Zangetsu would have to mean that Zangetsu was not Merged with Hichigo as per Ouetsu. The two are Merged, and had been Merged from the start.
    Nope, the times that Whitey took over his real body, he was also beyond control of OMZ.

    Let's start with this, OMZ mentions that every time he was "teaching" things about Zangetsu, he was forcing Whitey to teach it/was using him, because Whitey is Zangetsu or at least part of it:
    Spoiler!

    Later on this page, he says "the one responsible for saving you..."
    Spoiler!

    "was never me it was always your Hollow" - never me, this means that each time Hollow came up, it was beyond OMZ's control and it was Hollow-Zangetsu's will to protect/save Ichigo by taking control. If OMZ was sending him, he would say something along the lines of: "Hadn't you noticed, each time I came to your rescue, I was sending/using the Hollow", but he doesn't say that, he mentions that it was all Hollow, never him (at least the parts were only Hollow appeared).

    He was Ichigo's primary source of Power, to the point of Bankai training, after that, we can already see in Byakuya's fight that Whitey breaks out of control. Even Ishin mentions it as a time where the link between them has been cut off. From that point, it is obvious that Ichigo was drawing power from Whitey (since Zangetsu was still holding the other part and suppressing it). Whitey even mentions it, that the roles changed and now each time Ichigo draws Zangetsu's power, he draws it mainly from Whitey himself, no longer it being channeled through OMZ (it was said at the Vizard inner training).

    This page:
    Spoiler!

    here he reveals the sword Form of the Black Zangetsu that he kept in check most of the time (though it seems the he had to release a part of it for Bankai). Ichigo didn't recognize the Form of TZ, because Ichigo never before came to his inner world in Bankai and a part of it was only released in Bankai. That's what he might have meant by you don't recognize this form since you never entered here in Bankai. If he only is shown in Bankai, then it's obvious that Ichigo wouldn't recognize his Form, since it is hidden in Shikai. This is also suggested by that when he fist appears, he has a hood put on and a black coat that covers most of him, rendering him unrecognizable, suggesting that most of the time he is like that (and it is raveled in the current chapter that it is indeed that way).

    Basically, releasing a part of Black Zangetsu, was the help that OMZ mentions the he eventually gave Ichigo (beside teaching tactics, swordsmanship and other things), so that Ichigo could gain Bankai. That was a contradictory move from OMZ and his heart kept wavering, constantly wondering what he should do ? Kept him suppressed, or release the power.

    Quote Originally Posted by Argonar View Post
    Ok I'm way too lazy to dig up all the pages of the various meetings between Ichigo and OMZ, but you just gave the proof, that both are the same perso, yourself.

    Tensa Zangetsu says that it's no surprise Ichigo doesn't recognise this FORM. Not ME, but this FORM which confirms that he is someone that Ichigo has met before, so he is either OMZ or the Hollow. And we know for sure that he is not the hollow for several reasons.

    And in the talk about the water, Tensa Zangetsu mentiones how the rain has finally stopped but the water has sunken his inner world which is a lot worse. Only OMZ had previously mentioned that he hates the rain.

    The reason he claims that his name is Tensa Zangetsu is because Ichigo has entered the inner world in his Bankai state, thus OMZ being transformed into Tensa Zangetsu as well, which made perfectly sense until it was revealed that OMZ is not his Zanaputo's spirit at all. (This is why it's a sloppy retcon)

    And you got the thing about the same parts of the coin completely wrong. If TZ and OMZ were NOT the same person, then the fusion of TZ and the hollow would say that they are 2 parts of 3. But no, they say that they are two parts of the same coin, there is no third part. Back then, we thought that Zangetsu represented his shinigami powers and that Shiro represented the hollow powers. Now we know shiro is the source of the shinigami AND hollow powers (since Ichigo is so unique) and TZ/OMZ is the representation of the quincy powers.
    I already answered the thing about the "form", since it exists even in Shikai, it's just shrouded under OMZ's coat and is only released in Bankai, that's why he says that the doesn't recognize it, because it can only be seen clearly in Bankai.

    Every inner world person would hate the rain, since it represents sorrow, doubt negative emotions that even affect them, but TZ is the only one so emotional about it, he basically screams that this is not how it should be. OMZ was way more composed than this, while Whitey hides himself behind wicked smiles or a mask.

    This doesn't make sense. Whitey, a part of his Real Zanpakutou, doesn't transform when he enters Bankai, so why would OMZ, a fake one, transform ? The reason that later on Whitey looks differently (he only changed clothes and weapons at the time of Vizard training when entering Bankai) is because he has grown, evolved as Hollows and Zanpakutou have in common, while, as we see now, OMZ hasn't changed at all, thus he can't be TZ.

    Oetsu says that at the beginning his Hollows powers and Shinigami powers have fused and you know what ? Fusion Zangetsu also mentions that they were originally one, one being (the Zanpakutou), that's why they can return to what they originally were. That's why they are 2 powers, two side of the same coin (the Zanpakutou), while OMZ is a third power, his Quincy Power that took over his Zanpakutou completely at first, but later on the White Part have broken out of his control and kept growing and evolving, while he was still inhibiting the Black Part, only releasing a portion of it for Bankai.
    Last edited by Zero; 06-13-2013 at 02:49 PM.



  9. #49
    Senior Member SquadZero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    Actually Squad Zero,

    I have no problem with it since Ichigo is Unique, and more importantly no previous facts or data-book facts have been violated /changed. I actually think Kubo is do very very well, (UNLIKE Kishimoto's retcon convulsions).
    Don't get me wrong, I do like the direction Kubo is taking things, tying in Ichigo's quincy heritage and whatnot, it's just a couple of pesky details that seem needlessly mentioned, like OMZ being Ichigo's primary source of power which are leading to messes like how Ichigo's bankai(not to mention hollow masked Ichigo) worked and the true identity of TZ and so forth that are making this retcon more convoluted and harder to swallow than need be. Sure I get why Kubo mentioned it, its so that Ichigo gets a power up and probably some (much needed) new techniques. But I'm pretty sure just mentioning something like OMZ was using most of his power to suppress most of Ichigo's shinigami power(or Zangetsu) would have the same effect but not lead to these admittedly small discrepancies. I just wish it were a little smoother and more well thought out all around.

    Also again, the whole thing with TZ that Kubo did earlier I think is really screwing the pooch here. There's just no real good way of explaining away that whole fiasco(again seemingly needless headache for the sake of Kubo's itch for new character to play dress up with). I didn't really like the idea then, pretty much making me cringe now.

  10. #50
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    ^ Well, it's how this manga is made. I myself actually am reading it in two ways, as a battle manga and as a mystery. You probably have to wonder what nightmare level difficulty hints are doing in a battle manga in the first place ? But, surpassingly, it works, Bleach wouldn't be so interesting if it wasn't full of hint on different levels. Sure it has nice art and battles, cool characters, but the most time I spent on is noticing hints to revelations that are yet to come or have already been revealed (the worth of rereading it becomes so much bigger thanks to it, not to mention the story flows better when you read many chapters at a time).

    I mean seriously, just who was able to get the hint about Ishin being Shinigami, somewhere around the first 20-30 chapters ? It was so subtle that it quite likely was on nightmare difficulty level, simply by the fact that when KON was in Ichigo's body, Ishin never called hin "Ichigo". It was even explained in the manga, but seriously who could have noticed that :p.

    Or the thing about Kenpachi suppresing himself, sure that was easier, but still most people didn't notice it, especially until it was half-revealed and partially confirmed in the recent novel.



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