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  1. #61
    Did not see that coming actually, so does he lose his Quincy powers (If he had more than one to begin with) and keep Vizard powers instead?

  2. #62
    The French Tickler pratesh's Avatar
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    Ok say OMZ was trying to fool Ichigo, for what purpose? If Ichigo discovered he had Quincy powers nothing major would change. So even tho I'm interested in this plot of OMZ = Bach (some point in time) what was his reason for lying? And also, why didn't Shirosaki tell Ichigo what was happening.

  3. #63
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    @ Zero,

    Obviously I disagree that OMZ was using Quincy techniques in the image you showed us. Your own Manga reference showed that OMZ told /reminded Ichigo of "when he was a Shinigami" he stopped himself in mid=air, we have seen other shinigamis doing it too, all your images showed us was OMZ trying to prompt Ichigo to use his shinigami powers, in order to save Ichigo's life. If OMZ actually knew how to use Quincy powers, and if he really wanted Ichigo to survive, why didn't he propmt Ichigo to use Quincy powers instead?

    In any case, Juha Bach said that Ichigo 's Quincy powers only awakened with Blut, what reason would OMZ have for not teaching Ichigo Quincy techniques like Blut, if these could have saved their mutual lives in their previous battles without Ichigo being aware of the source of the powers or even caring for that matter?

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  4. #64
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    @ Zero,

    Obviously I disagree that OMZ was using Quincy techniques in the image you showed us. Your own Manga reference showed that OMZ told /reminded Ichigo of "when he was a Shinigami" he stopped himself in mid=air, we have seen other shinigamis doing it too, all your images showed us was OMZ trying to prompt Ichigo to use his shinigami powers, in order to save Ichigo's life. If OMZ actually knew how to use Quincy powers, and if he really wanted Ichigo to survive, why didn't he propmt Ichigo to use Quincy powers instead?

    In any case, Juha Bach said that Ichigo 's Quincy powers only awakened with Blut, what reason would OMZ have for not teaching Ichigo Quincy techniques like Blut, if these could have saved their mutual lives in their previous battles without Ichigo being aware of the source of the powers or even caring for that matter?
    The explanation itself and how the energy is gathered from the surrounding is important (it's obviously the Quincy and not the Shinigami way to do it). It was so that Ichigo would stop panicking and made himself some ground to stay on. Beside, in the spiritual worlds, Shinigami cannot stand on the air, only Quincy and special tools showed that capability (it's because Shinigami uses normal particles in the air to stand, while in spiritual worlds there are none there, in that case also in the inner world, it should be impossible, thought it doesn't seem that way in his Bankai fight against Whitey ). It was "when you were Shinigami", not "when you used your Shinigami Powers", even in this arc Ichigo used more of his Quincy Power than ever, when he was in his Shinigami form. It's possible that on that image he instinctively used his minor Quincy Power (Shinigami don't really leave a trail like Ichigo in this picture, IIRC).

    After that, he tells him to use his Shinigami Powers, because as Urahara explained, only by becoming a Shinigami, can he stop the Hollowification. Not to mention that he says to him that he should find his Shinigami Power and when he uses that spiritual cloth sense, only one red cloth points to Zanpakutou and none point to OMZ who is a personification of power, but a different one.

    There is one more thing, it actually seems that Ichigo have met OMZ way in the past, for example this page:
    Spoiler!

    "Who am I ? What are you talking about ? It's me *****", his reaction is way different from Zaraki's Zanpakutou. Zaraki's Zan says something like this:
    Spoiler!

    It says: "it's a pleasure to finally make your acquaintance". As you can see, Zaraki's Zan knew that they never met and thus there is noway that Zaraki could know his name, but OMZ, implies that they have met and that Ichigo perhaps even should know his name.

    On the next page it's:
    Spoiler!

    "he can't hear it...", it's not shown who actually says it, but the "..." implies that there is a small pause to contemplate what to do next... plus, it actually seems that OMZ answer to that statement by "is that so ?" and changes his strategy. It's quite likely that this is the point, where OMZ started to pretend to be his Zan. Of course, from how it looks, it seems that he did it for Ichigo's sake, since at that point in time he had completely no ground to communicate with his Zan, thus without his intervention Ichigo might have likely turned into a Hollow and be killed a second later. Still, it's unknown if this was his will or his mission.

    In accordance to the above, there is one line of Ichigo that sounded disturbing (it sounded like memory erasure a little), that whenever he met again with his mother, all the bad things, thoughts, memories seemed to vanish, well something along those lines (I'm not sure what chapter it was). Now, this actually could mean that Masaki was suppressing the Quincy Power in Ichigo and perhaps altering memories, as well as it would explain why OMZ thought that Ichigo should know him, while Ichigo had no clue.



  5. #65
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    All this cryptic remeber me, hear my voice type craparonie is typical. The experiences of shinigami meeting their Zans are not too far different from Ichigo and OMZ's. I think Hyourin Maru and Toushirou were similar to Ichigo and OMZ.

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  6. #66
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    All this cryptic remeber me, hear my voice type craparonie is typical. The experiences of shinigami meeting their Zans are not too far different from Ichigo and OMZ's. I think Hyourin Maru and Toushirou were similar to Ichigo and OMZ.
    Still it seems like OMZ is talking with someone that Ichigo can't see nor hear. It might be as simple as his real Zanpakutou, or it might be something more complicated as Bach himself. After all, for him to gather his power back, without even coming close to it, there needs to be a constant connection with it.

    Hm ? Nope, from the looks of it, this actually didn't take place :p. Chapter about Hitsugaya was a prequel for the Diamond Dust Rebellion Movie, the same way as that prequel chapter for the Hell Verse Movie, in other words both are fillers and non-canon, or so it seems. Most of those specials for the Movies are filler, so by this logic the one about Hitsugaya should be as well, but you never know .

    All that's known is that he gained his Shikai while still being in the academy (and that is also from other source than manga , from the official book or something along those lines ).

    Speaking about Toushiro it's quite obvious that Hitsugaya was never a Human, after all, Human Kids don't have white hair. Which means that he is likely a pure blood Shinigami.


    Anyway, Renji calls the Zan Spirit as the True Form of Soul Cutter and since it is a "true form", there is really no sense for it to change it's shape when it already is in it's true form (even when between Asauchi and Shikai the inner spirit doesn't change it's form, so why would it change from Shikai to Bankai ?):
    Spoiler!

    thus it again points towards OMZ and Tensa Zangetsu being completely different inner spirits.

    This would make Fusion Zangetsu the True Form of Ichigo's Zanpakutou, while Whitey and Tensa as it's split parts and OMZ as only his Quincy Powers.

    Also the previous hints about how OMZ gather spiritual power from around and what he actually explains to Ichigo is rather important, after all the Quincy were already established at that point, it would be strange for Kubo to make mistake like that, when the chapter with Quincy wasn't that long ago (back then it was like 20 chapters ago).



  7. #67
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    @Zero,

    Doesn't Renji's own Zanpakutou change shape and appearance from Shikai to Bankai. and if you mean the Inner Zan, Well Ichigo's not a regular Shinigami, besides we haven't really seen enough canon inner Zans to be sure of anything.

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  8. #68
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    @Zero,

    Doesn't Renji's own Zanpakutou change shape and appearance from Shikai to Bankai. and if you mean the Inner Zan, Well Ichigo's not a regular Shinigami, besides we haven't really seen enough canon inner Zans to be sure of anything.
    Yeah I meant the inner zan, after the spirit had already formed from the base Asauchi.

    Yep, that's the hard part. Ichigo is special in itself and we don't have too many normal cases to compare. I guess doing it like this Kubo won't hit a wall that will only be overcome a plot-hole, as long as he doesn't reveal too much, he can change it anytime he wants by only adding a notion that Ichigo is a special case . Though it really does seem that Kubo intended for OMZ to be Quincy Powers from beginning, or at least now that I know what to look for it's easier to find, so perhaps it is just written in that manner . For example OMZ gathering energy from surrounding, could be explained by simply saying that his surrounding is Ichigo's and his own power (they are in the inner world after all), so drawing upon them is like drawing from within. Though now that it was revealed that he is Quincy Power, the first possibility makes more sense.

    Oh right, remember when someone asked how Oetsu knew how OMZ looked like ? Well, remember the Hot Spring Demon when he was explaining how his hot spring works ? He asked if Ichigo remembers the hot spring in Yoruichi's Playground. Since it was created when Urahara and Yoruichi were young, this mean that the Royal Guard was able to observe what happens there from their Palaces. Finally, that's where Ichigo trained for Bankai and in order to obtain it he summoned OMZ. The whole Royal Guard was probably like: "wow, what's Bach doing there ?" . Thought I would prefer if Oetsu could see the Inner Spirits within Shinigami (after all, he did create Zanpakutou in order to drawn them out, right ?).

    It's possible that Ichigo might not need to say goodbye to OMZ, as long as OMZ will stay beside Ichigo without the risk of betraying or leaving him. Then I can see Ichigo even forcefully including him in the Zanpakutou if Oetsu were to not agree to do it.

    I expect to see some flashback of the previous encounter between Ichigo and OMZ with a little different notion, or more information revealed, like for example showing what he actually calls himself at first when he says: "Who am I ? What are you talking about ? It's me *****".

    Oh right, now that I think about it, OMZ was never shown to be calling himself Zangetsu, but rather only others were calling him that. The part where he was to call himself always skipped or was camouflaged.



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