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  1. #21
    Senior Member Anticrobotic's Avatar
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    Guys...it was Hashwald who broke Ichigo's sword - not Bach/Yhwach.

  2. #22
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anticrobotic View Post
    Guys...it was Hashwald who broke Ichigo's sword - not Bach/Yhwach.

    Oops! Thanks for the correction, which begs the question , Is Hashwald super powerful, or did something else happen. Afterall, Ulquorra Version 2.0 did not break Zangetsu, neither did Aizen (although I am sure he wasn't trying to harm Ichigo).

    I am not perfect and I defy you to prove otherwise
    Growing Old Gracefully is an Oxymoron ... Mostly Moron !

  3. #23
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    Oh how sad that Old Man Zangetsu has to go, he was pretty awesome/baddass, oh well I always thought that Hichigo is the one truer to himself than he anyway . So he is made exactly the same way as Zanpakutou... I wonder if it was intentional or coincidence on Aizen's part ?

    So, for Ichigo to grow as a Shinigami, his Quincy powers have to be completely eliminated, seeing as it hinder his progress. After all an opposite element can't mix well. An Ice will not mix with Fire well. I guess this is what Zansmith meant when he said that Ichigo will need to say goodbye to Zangetsu.

    Not only did Old Man Zangetsu look like Fach, they even whore similar clothes (white underneath with a black over cloak). At least this explains how he can make hundreds swords pulling out of the ground from nothing.

    I wonder, does this mean that White has a completely other name ? Then again, White always wielded his own Zanpakutou, which was always strange for a mere inner hollow.

    Looks like FGT might have seriously been Quincy Last Stand, simply named different to hide the truth from Ichigo (as mentioned that not only Ishin, but also Zangetsu was hiding it).

    So the reason that Old Man Z could use and swing a Zanpakutou, is because he took over White in similar fashion to what Quincy Medallions do ?

    Asauchi are made from dead souls of Shinigami... I guess being a Shinigami is a commitment for an eternity, lol.

    Hmmmm, I wonder if Tensa Zangetsu is also different, after all, he has blue eyes. From what was shown, the way that Hichigo acted with Old Man was antagonistic, but with the Tensa, he was cooperating.



  4. #24
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    @Zero,

    I wonder about your interpretation.

    1) I don't think OMZ has to go anywhere, he is a part of Ichigo, as Ichigo is part Quincy from Masaki his Mom.

    2) Ichigo's Hollow/Shinigami AND his Quincy (young Zangetsu) did mix and fuse in the past, why not again?

    3) I am not sure Ouetsu is saying that Asauchi are from dead Shinigami. It seems that he could be saying they are made from Hollows (I thinl?).

    4) Hichigo had come to terms with OMZ and was no longer being antagonistic, long before Ichigo met Tensa Zangetsu.

    In other words, we should hold judgement for a while till we get more information.

    I am not perfect and I defy you to prove otherwise
    Growing Old Gracefully is an Oxymoron ... Mostly Moron !

  5. #25
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    I think that Ichigo will need to get ride of his Quincy powers, since those can be stolen any moment and depending on them might be a fatal weakness of his. Unless for the power to be stolen, the Bach Inside have to agree to it as well, which would be pretty awesome (then again, why would he agree to leave Katagiri, likely knowing that she would die because of it, if he had anything to say and was a bit different from Bach ?).

    It might have been that Bankai and Hollow were the ones that fused only, as representations of his Shinigami and Hollow powers (which were very similar to itself and thus were able to merge with each other from the very beginning), while the Old Man Zangetsu, a representation of his Quincy powers, was left out of it. The way how vivid are blue eyes of Tensa Zangatsu might be an important factor in showing that he is different from Old Man, no he even says that he isn't Zangetus, but Tensa Zangetsu, showing that he has a different personality from Ichigo's Quincy power personification.

    Oetsu said that White was made the same way as Asauchi are, by piling up Shinigami Souls (likely dead, or let's hope that those are dead ).

    Looks like Ichigo's Bankai might be white from now on.


    BTW, I have a question: have sunglasses existed 1000 years ago in our world ?
    Last edited by Zero; 06-05-2013 at 03:58 PM.



  6. #26
    Senior Member Dabbido's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    BTW, I have a question: have sunglasses existed 1000 years ago in our world ?
    Sunglasses as we know, nope. As for early "ancestors" theres the "flattened walrus ivory glasses" wich the Inuits used to protect from the sun, in prehistoric and historic time, Also sunglasses made from flat planes of smoky quartz, were used in China in the 12th century. But modern development on sunglasses began around 1990s.

    And that ladies and gentlemen is our short history class for today XD

    On-topic though : I really loved this chapter. So full of reveal awesomeness! am I the only one who lold at that girl taking off her tooth? I do love that plot twist, Old man Zangetsu , not being Zangetsu but Juha Bach (Well more of a presence of his Quincy side, not the actual Bach inside him xD)

  7. #27
    Senior Member kiduka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    I think that Ichigo will need to get ride of his Quincy powers, since those can be stolen any moment and depending on them might be a fatal weakness of his. Unless for the power to be stolen, the Bach Inside have to agree to it as well, which would be pretty awesome (then again, why would he agree to leave Katagiri, likely knowing that she would die because of it, if he had anything to say and was a bit different from Bach ?).
    Depending on Quincy powers would be a mistake but at the same time I want to see Ichigo take full advantage of them, there could be a silver lining. We know they can't steal his Shinigami powers or Bankai I wonder if he fuses his Quincy power in the mix if that would prevent Bach from stripping Ichigo's Quincy power.

    It would be like when Tensa Zangetsu fused with whitey except this time it would be whitey in dominant control.

  8. #28
    Senior Member drgnx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SquadZero View Post
    Mangapanda xlation FTL... need to go read Mangastream now.... so confused.

    *edit*

    Ok so apparently Old Man Zangetsu is the representation of Ichigo's quincy power, while Hichigo was actually Zangetsu. I really don't know what to think about this, I like the twist but it seems a bit flaky as far as retcons go... After all, Old man Zangetsu was the one who taught Ichigo how to access his zanpakuto's powers. Ichigo had to beat down Old man Zangetsu to learn bankai-- not Hichigo. He had to beat Hichigo down to master his HOLLOW side. This is making little to no sense at the moment, I hope Kubo esplains this a whole helluva lot better.
    This is assuming Ichigo learned his proper Bankai. Didn't Byakuya not find Ichigo's Bankai strange because it compressed rather than expanded? That seemed similar to how Quincies can absorb Spirit particles. Lets not forget that Old man could have had influence on what both Itchigo and Hitchigo could access as a weapon, since it seemed Ichigo never really accessed his Zan the proper way, we don't know the full scope of what that means now... Even after the Merger with Old Man and Hollow, Ichigo's Bankai never changed much, I think it just merged with him.
    Last edited by drgnx; 06-05-2013 at 05:51 PM.
    Spoiler!

  9. #29
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    Even as i'm starting to write this. I can already tell it might turn out to be an utter wall of text. so apolgies in advance and if you want the short version, just read the bold text. :] (And the list below)

    So.... This is pretty mind-boggling. I've been rereading various chapters of the manga. Trying to chalange this new revelation, and what i found was that while there are a few occasion's where this plain doesn't make sense. Alot of the time it makes perfect sense. Almost to much to be a coinsidence (read: a twist made up only a few month's ago)...Almost.

    But before we get to that, i want to adress how i understood this latest chapter. Which seems a little different to other users. Naturally feel free to correct me.

    Oetsu says these words: (Manga Stream) "The Hollow that Aizen artifically made from piling up Shinigami souls, was named 'White'. Oddly enough, that's also how my Asauchi's are made."
    What we know, since pretty much the start, is that Aizen wanted to either remove, or at least raise the limit of power for Shinigami, by removing the Shinigami-Hollow boundry. His tests have shown, that a regular Shinigami will explode when you botch this process. And a captain class will survive just long enough, to turn into a mindless hollow. Here is where thing's get interesting. The natural direction to take from this point, would be to attempt fusing the hollow powers, with the Shinigami powers, effectively fusing the Hollow with a Zanpaktou. This is exactly what the Whitey does, you could even go as far as to say that it's a modified Asauchi. Mean't to fuse with the Asauchi, that the targeted Shinigami already owns. A side effect of this, is that Whitey is an Asauchi itself aswell. so if you never had one to begin with. (like Ichigo) You still can aquire a Zanpaktou from it.

    Enter the first "failed" attempt. Where our beloved whitey, has bitten a quincy instead. Masaki had no Shinigami powers, so the proper - intended purpouse of whitey didn't kick in. But Ichigo did inherit it, AND his father's Shinigami powers (perhaps a little conviniently). Which is why Whitey worked on him instead. What i'm saying is Ichigo had an Asauchi since birth. And a modified one at that. Ichigo has been Aizen's most succesful hollowification experiment yet.

    So i've explained what i think. Now I'll quickly recap the most important things that happened to Ichigo in the manga and try to apply this logic.

    1. Ichigo get's powers from Rukia. - His actual powers are dormant. this has been explained early on. His Asauchi and therfore Zanpaktou, and therefore hollow powers, would not wake up either, naturally. - Makes Sense

    2. Rukia's powers are destroyed by Byakuya. Urahara decides to wake up Ichigo's actual powers. - He emerges from the pit with a mask on, and a Shinigami robe. If these powers are fused, then they would wake up together. Furthermore, his father regains his powers, because he's no logner bound to the now awakened, hollow - Makes Sense

    3. He is told the name of his Zanpaktou and summon's it - He has an Asauchi since birth, but it seems wierd that he would learn the name from an imposter... unles the name is fake - ?

    4. He almost get's killed by Zaraki who breaks his sword, he is then drawn inside his inner world, and forced to fight against Whitey. DESPITE the fact, that he's fighting to get more Shinigami powers. - Throughout the fight Whitey calls out to Ichigo, that he has a magnificent Zanpaktou, he doesn't know how to use, or try to understand. He uses Zangetsu in creative ways. - Makes Sense.

    5. When looking at Whitey all Ichigo can feel is Zangetsu's overwhelming power. at the and of the fight Juha's image, and Whitey merge. - there is but one problem in this scene. Whitey refers to Juha's image as "Zangetsu-San" which only makes sense IF Zangetsu is a made up name. Equally important is that he claims these powers will be his, in the future. - ?

    6. He learns Bankai through training with fake Zangetsu. - Unless his Bankai is also fake - Doesnt Make Sense

    7. Ichigo's hollow powers surface during the fight against Byakuya. They save his live. - The hollow continues the trend of looking down on Ichigo. Laughing at him for destroying his body with his own Bankai. He uses a new type of attack, Black Getsuga. - ?

    8. His Hollow powers start taking over during fights where he uses Bankai - This could be explained in more than one way, still, if the bankai is real (comes from Whitey), it can be true, as excecive use of shinigami powers = surfacing of hollow powers. - ?

    9. Ichigo conquers his hollow powers by defeating Whitey - If these powers are fused, and they are, then - Makes Sense

    10. He has to fight both his Quincy powers and Shinigami/Hollow powers to attain FGT form... Did he loose all powers at that time? where his Quincy powers restored by the Shinigami? - Doesnt Make Sense

  10. #30
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    Very good reading, Yellow.

    I also went back to re-read the current chapter, and I still don't get the full meaning. I sense that neither Mangastream nor Mangapanda got the thing right, and we'll egt more info over the next few chapters.

    1) There is no way that Asauchis are made from dead Shinigamis, What Ouetsu was saying was that The Asauchi he made for Ichigo will draw out Hollow Ichigo's power, true Zangetsu's power, and not The Faker OMG.

    2) He's MAY also be saying that Asauchis are made from a similar principle to Aizen's Whitey to the extent (I think), that the whitey can merge with a Shinigami's soul. In the same way Asauchis are made to Merge with a Shinigami.

    There is now a question of what would happen to OMZ. I personally feel and hope that Zangetsu remains inside Ichigo as a true ally. It was obvious when reading the chapter where Tensa Zangetsu taught Ichigo the FGT that Tensa Zangetsu really cared for/loved Ichigo. It would be a shame to have OMG removed.

    I also doubt that Ichigo can re-enter the FGT state as powerfully as he did if the quincy powers are taken away. Finally it would be wrong to think ill of all quincies and quincy powers, given that those powers are a herritage from Masaki who loved Ichigo deeply.

    I would love Ouetsu to give Ichigo a chance to talk to OMG and decide if he wants to blend him with the real Zangetsu or not.

    I am not perfect and I defy you to prove otherwise
    Growing Old Gracefully is an Oxymoron ... Mostly Moron !

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