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  1. #51
    Senior Member Dabbido's Avatar
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    Youre absolutely right, theres still a bunch to fight.

    -Zaraki / Ichigo vs Haschwald : This would be epic, and I would look forward to it. Mostly cause Im interested in seeing both Zaraki n Haschwald fight. But itll probably be along the lines of Ichigo letting Zaraki to Haschwald while he goes for the big bad himself.

    -Ichigo vs Bach/Ywach : This one is definitely coming, and I really hope its good. His fight with Aizen was cool and all, but felt short for me. And was like "hah, I pwn you" with Aizen being .. well.. ROFLpwned, and in the end didnt kill him, and Urahara did the job (thanks to Ichi ofc) So I hope this one is more of a brutal battle, where none obviously have an advantage. Yknow, like both are equal.

    -Kurotsuchi fight: While not so many like him, I do find him quite awesome, he inflicted the most painful death ever. To Szayel Aporro xD so I hope he does use something crafty, like a mix between his zanpakutou powers and his scientific expertise.

    -Soi Fon vs Helmet dude: Yeah... not feeling it.. she will have to rely on Shunko, cause she cant go nuke anymore. In fact I want to know how will she even fight against her bankai, well I guess she has advantage since bankai is slow and shunko is fast.

    -Rukia vs Unknown: Yeah sadly Rukia doesnt have much in her favour, heck even when Ikkaku, Zaraki, Byakuya, Toshiro and gang appeared for their "big debut" when helping Ichigo with the Fullbringers, she lost basically. But yeah there must be a reason why she went to the Palace, she might learn Bankai, wich would be awesome.

    -Toshiro vs Claw quincy: Your idea is actually fantastic, if they somehow recover Halibel (Grimmjow, Urahara n gang? ) itd be nice to see them together. Although if Rukia does gain bankai, and Toshiro somehow recovers his, wouldnt it be fantastic to see an ice / snow duo? xD

    -Komamura : Just what I was thinking. He better gain those ancient secrets and become huge like grandpa (XD ) if he wants to counter Kokujo Tengen Myou-oh

    -Kyoryaku/Ukitake : Will probably face the same dude, he seems to be one of the oldest members, (Like Kyoryaku / Ukitake) I reaallly hope to see a great fight here, to be honest, even if Starrk was no. 1 , he didnt seem like so, and the fight was kinda dissappointing, I did like Kyoryakus "games" but I hope we see him go serious.

    -Grimmjow vs ??? : Definitely looking forward to this! Maybe he even acquired a "segunda etapa".

    Theres gonna be enough I hope, if not Kubo will make more pop up xDD I wonder about Kira btw. Is he really dead? and if so, why isnt it mentioned? (probably cause everyone was at Yama-Jis funeral, and kira was *forever alone* ) xD Im guessing hes alive and being treated.

  2. #52
    Senior Member Shock's Avatar
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    So they couldn't steal Ichigo's Bankai because it wasn't a Bankai to begin with? Just his Quincy powers manifesting in a way that would make him appear to be a Shinigami? So his fake quincy Bankai is now going to be gone and hes going to get his real Shinigami one he should of had from the beginning then.

    If it was all Quincy powers then why would it matter if he broke his Bankai, hes a quincy and its all about spirit particle manipulation so then just make a new one appear Ichigo. An on FGT, if its a Quincy full release then it would be all his Quincy powers that would be gone, but why does Isshin have the same problem with Engetsu? and his final engetsu tensho or w/e it is?

    Can Juha Bach rip out his old quincy powers from Ichigo and make him a Shinigami/Hollow mix with 0 Quincy in him? That might be nice to see.

    Also Does this mean that Juha bach is the only real Quincy in the world, the one and only, he just split up his powers and gave a little to everyone then when the time came he collected it all back up again, making him whole and making all the "quincy" human or dead?

    Many questions this chapter hmmm

    And if Asauchi's are made from Shinigami souls then who gets Yamamoto's? Whoever that is will be the next CC for sure lol
    A pie in the sky?

  3. #53
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shock View Post
    1. So they couldn't steal Ichigo's Bankai because it wasn't a Bankai to begin with? Just his Quincy powers manifesting in a way that would make him appear to be a Shinigami? So his fake quincy Bankai is now going to be gone and hes going to get his real Shinigami one he should of had from the beginning then.

    2. If it was all Quincy powers then why would it matter if he broke his Bankai, hes a quincy and its all about spirit particle manipulation so then just make a new one appear Ichigo. An on FGT, if its a Quincy full release then it would be all his Quincy powers that would be gone, but why does Isshin have the same problem with Engetsu? and his final engetsu tensho or w/e it is?

    3. Can Juha Bach rip out his old quincy powers from Ichigo and make him a Shinigami/Hollow mix with 0 Quincy in him? That might be nice to see.

    4. Also Does this mean that Juha bach is the only real Quincy in the world, the one and only, he just split up his powers and gave a little to everyone then when the time came he collected it all back up again, making him whole and making all the "quincy" human or dead?

    5. Many questions this chapter hmmm

    6. And if Asauchi's are made from Shinigami souls then who gets Yamamoto's? Whoever that is will be the next CC for sure lol
    1. Nah, he still has Zangetsu? it's just that Old Man Z was pretending to be him and since he was stronger than him at the beginning, he was in control, so Zangetsu's power was being channeled through Old Man Z to Ichigo... probably. The older Shinigami would instantly notice a Quincy power being used. His Zan will probably be stronger now, since it won't restricted any longer ?

    It's quite likely that the reason the Medallion didn't work, is because it is made that way, to not work on Quincy. Every special advantageous Quincy ability is made like that/have that trait (seemingly), quite likely so that in the case a Quincy betrayed the Emperor, his special powers wouldn't work on his master.

    2. The Cross Weapons aren't that simple. The moment that Yamamoto destroyed Fach's Sword, it was implied that he couldn't recreate it immediately. It's possible that Quincy create their own Cross Weapons by channeling and endlessly forming and reforging their weapons. This seems to be the case, basing on the fact that when Uryu started training with the Senrei Glove, his bow was just an energy one, but after constantly training for a week without a rest, it gained a proper solid form.

    Ichigo's Quincy Power weren't fully awakened then, so it's unlikely that it was their working alone, rather it would make more sense if they were the source of the technique only but not the power behind it (Ishin and Old Man Z were lying to Ichigo a lot, plus the inner world spirits see everything, so of course if Ishin called something else a "Final Getsuga Tenshou", then Old Man Z would know what he really means).

    Let's not forget the fact that Ishin might not have FGT. It's hard to say how good the translation was of that part, but he might have meant that the Bankai Spirit Forms are aggressive and uncooperative, that they don't want to teach any techniques in that form at all in general and not only FGT. This would also make sense, especially seeing as Getsuga Tenshou isn't a technique of his Ishin's Zanpakutou, but a sword technique (for now that is ).

    3. Technically, Masaki was a Quincy x Hollow, but the moment her Quincy power were ripped out, she ended up with nothing, unless there was no longer any Hollow in her.

    4. The Souls become Shinigami in a similar fashion, by transferring a part of their power to the target's core, physically, or through blood, or so it seems. He might be actually like Orihime, born with a power that no one else had, in a sense, a deviation, an error, though from Kurotuchi's words after Uryu entered the Final Form, would suggest that they indeed come from SK, or perhaps the thing/one before him. It's also possible that Yhwach is the same as the Dog/Wolf Clan, a last remnant of the previous world that somehow was able to survive.

    It's also worth mentioning that when Uryu lost his Quincy Powers, he didn't loose his Spirit Perception, indifference to Ichgio and Ishin, which lost their Spirit Perception together with Shinigami Powers. So this could really suggest that this powers comes from time, where there was no need for Spirit Perception.

    It should also be mentioned that one of Quincy's base power is Domination of Spirit Particles, they can even take apart Spirtual Beings, but if one is strong enough, it doesn't work on the target. It's possible that the way Bach regained his power worked on similar basis and if he wanted to rip out the power of someone quite strong, then he might end up failing.

    5. Yep, for example, was protecting Ichigo his mission or his will ?

    6. Quite likely none. Bach supposedly (he at least tired to) obliterated Yamamoto's souls using Quincy Powers/Techniques, which means that his soul was annihilated, ripped apart from the cycle of reincarnation. Of course, the Zanpakutou should die together with the Shinigami, but the fact that most of it is in Bach's hands, could explain why Yamamoto's Zanpakutou was the only thing that survived... of course, another, even more wicked explanation, is that Kurotuschi learned form the corpse he founded in HM and based on it, did the same thing to Yamamoto's dead body... yep, that would have been pretty wicked, kukukuku. After all, to not found any traces of his body, even though Bach aimed only at his upper body (remember the lower part was lying elsewhere), is quite strange.



  4. #54
    Senior Member Shock's Avatar
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    Thanks for organizing that for me Zero hehe, and thanks for the input, lots to think about.

    Im sure Kubo has this all planned out, probably from the beginning (maybe) so hopefully he ties all these potential holes together. I hate calling plot holes on a mangaka when im not even the one who wrote the manga so I don't know anything about his plan, but it just seems like there is a lot of explaining to do still
    A pie in the sky?

  5. #55
    Senior Member kiduka's Avatar
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    @Zero

    I'm not convinced OMZ was pretending to be Ichigo's Shinigami power,

    I don't think OMZ was pretending at all, going by what Bach said Ichigo's reiatsu memories were dormant. What if OMZ was convinced he was Zangetsu because the reiatsu memories were predominantly Shinigami. It could explain the shinigami power struggle between OMZ and Whitey.

  6. #56
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    Even though OMZ is said to be Ichigo's quincy powers I don't think that necessarily means that Ichigo was using quincy powers all along. The reason Ichigo's Bankai cannot be stolen so easily is most likely because his power source is a combination of shinigami, hollow, fullbring and quincy. Since all of Ichigo's powers seem to clad him in his own power, it seems to be difficult to take them away to begin with. (Everbody else's bankai is more like a tool or increased weapon)

    I think OMZ will still be called Zangetsu as it seems to be the name of his power, not just his Zanpakuto's name. But what really is strange, is that Ichigo's Bankai makes him look like Juha Bach, I mean everybody elses Bankai draws attributes from the Zanpakuto's representation. So why does Ichigo get Juha Bachs coat instead of origina white's armor. Still I do think it is his true Bankai, because White used the same Bankai during their fight, it wouldn't make any sense for white to use a fake banaki. That doesn't mean that a Banaki cannot evolve though and Ichigo's Bankai is most likely going to evelove soon.

    Also I'm not convinced that Zangetsu's signature power is Getsuga Tenshou, just because Isshin has used it once on white. Isshin's and Ichigo's Zanpakutos both follow the moon theme, with the name AND with the powers. Why would Ichigo transform into Getsuga itself (like he said when fighting Aizen) during Final Getsuga Tenshou if Getsuga was a copied/stolen power. And if Final Getsuga Tenshou is something Ichigo can only achieve with both shinigami and quincy powers, why did Isshin know about it? And why did Isshin know that Ichigo's Zanpakuto would go wild this time, when he sent him to his inner world? There are many questions to be answered yet.

    I guess the first question that will be answered (hopefully next week) is the following: "Why is there an afterimage of Juha Bach within Ichigo's inner world?"

    What I really hope though is that there will come a time, when Ichigo discovers something, that nobody knew beforehand. It is kinda depressing that everybody and his mother seem to know everything (and I mean literally everything) about Ichigo, yet do not feel the need to ever tell him anything. I mean ok, that theme is present in every manga, but I think it's especially bad in Bleach. The last chapter is a good example, for example why does Ōetsu know how Ichigo's inner world representation looks like? Hasn't Ichigo had enough exposition done to him in the last couple of chapters (let alone last couple of arcs -.- )

    Like for once, don't let Ōetsu be correct about what OMZ truly is. Or let Ichigo develop a new techinque or power up without somebody saying that it was just as expected. I mean in the Bleach world, Ichigo is really unique, there should be a lot more surprises about him and his development that nobody should be able to forsee, yet nothing ever happens without half a dozen characters mentioning how everything went as they had planned. Ichigo truly is a puppet at the palm of the hands of not just Aizen, but Isshin, Urahara, Juha Bach, Ginjou, the whole Zero Squad and most likely Ikumi. The same thing kinda applies to Ishida too, but since he is not the main character, it doesn't happen that often.

  7. #57
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kiduka View Post
    @Zero

    I'm not convinced OMZ was pretending to be Ichigo's Shinigami power,

    I don't think OMZ was pretending at all, going by what Bach said Ichigo's reiatsu memories were dormant. What if OMZ was convinced he was Zangetsu because the reiatsu memories were predominantly Shinigami. It could explain the shinigami power struggle between OMZ and Whitey.
    Oetsu implies that OMZ knew it from the very beginning, that not only he pretended to be his Zan, but even was pulling a cloth on his eyes so that Ichigo wouldn't notice things about himself (while, supposedly, everyone else noticed, thus Oetsu saying that Ichigo was the only one in the dark). Of course, he can always be wrong.


    Quote Originally Posted by Argonar View Post
    1.Even though OMZ is said to be Ichigo's quincy powers I don't think that necessarily means that Ichigo was using quincy powers all along. The reason Ichigo's Bankai cannot be stolen so easily is most likely because his power source is a combination of shinigami, hollow, fullbring and quincy. Since all of Ichigo's powers seem to clad him in his own power, it seems to be difficult to take them away to begin with. (Everbody else's bankai is more like a tool or increased weapon)

    2.I think OMZ will still be called Zangetsu as it seems to be the name of his power, not just his Zanpakuto's name. But what really is strange, is that Ichigo's Bankai makes him look like Juha Bach, I mean everybody elses Bankai draws attributes from the Zanpakuto's representation. So why does Ichigo get Juha Bachs coat instead of origina white's armor. Still I do think it is his true Bankai, because White used the same Bankai during their fight, it wouldn't make any sense for white to use a fake banaki. That doesn't mean that a Banaki cannot evolve though and Ichigo's Bankai is most likely going to evelove soon.

    3.Also I'm not convinced that Zangetsu's signature power is Getsuga Tenshou, just because Isshin has used it once on white. Isshin's and Ichigo's Zanpakutos both follow the moon theme, with the name AND with the powers. Why would Ichigo transform into Getsuga itself (like he said when fighting Aizen) during Final Getsuga Tenshou if Getsuga was a copied/stolen power. And if Final Getsuga Tenshou is something Ichigo can only achieve with both shinigami and quincy powers, why did Isshin know about it? And why did Isshin know that Ichigo's Zanpakuto would go wild this time, when he sent him to his inner world? There are many questions to be answered yet.

    4.I guess the first question that will be answered (hopefully next week) is the following: "Why is there an afterimage of Juha Bach within Ichigo's inner world?"

    5.What I really hope though is that there will come a time, when Ichigo discovers something, that nobody knew beforehand. It is kinda depressing that everybody and his mother seem to know everything (and I mean literally everything) about Ichigo, yet do not feel the need to ever tell him anything. I mean ok, that theme is present in every manga, but I think it's especially bad in Bleach. The last chapter is a good example, for example why does Ōetsu know how Ichigo's inner world representation looks like? Hasn't Ichigo had enough exposition done to him in the last couple of chapters (let alone last couple of arcs -.- )

    6.Like for once, don't let Ōetsu be correct about what OMZ truly is. Or let Ichigo develop a new techinque or power up without somebody saying that it was just as expected. I mean in the Bleach world, Ichigo is really unique, there should be a lot more surprises about him and his development that nobody should be able to forsee, yet nothing ever happens without half a dozen characters mentioning how everything went as they had planned. Ichigo truly is a puppet at the palm of the hands of not just Aizen, but Isshin, Urahara, Juha Bach, Ginjou, the whole Zero Squad and most likely Ikumi. The same thing kinda applies to Ishida too, but since he is not the main character, it doesn't happen that often.

    1. I think Ichigo using Quincy Powers was something more like Ichigo using Rukia's power before he activated his own Core. Basically, he was using the very minimum of power, until his Core was (fully?) activated.

    It was easy for Ginjou to steal Ichigo's Fullbring , even though a portion of Shinigami power was also, supposedly, there.

    2. When Ichigo wanted to call OMZ "Zangetsu", Oetsu stopped him, by saying: "wrong, try again" which probably means that he is not called Zangetsu.

    When H2 Hichigo combined with Tensa Zangetsu, they didn't call themselves Zangatsu, so Ichigo's total power is seemingly not called Zangetsu.

    Ichigo doesn't gain Bach's coat. Ichigo's clothes have a red under the black, just how his Black Getsuga Tenshou is (in the anime at least). It was a hint, that under Ichigo's Shinigami Powers, lie his Hollow Powers, what's more that they are part of the same coin. Ichigo's clothes in Bankai are more similar to those of H2 Hichigo and since he is the true Zanpakutou, it makes sense.

    It's quite interesting that it seems not only in Ichigo's case is that the inner world is reversed compared to normal (when it's about the Shnigami powers). Zabimaru's Spirit Form is that of a Monkay with an attached Snake, while his Bankai is the other way around, It's a Giant Snake with a monkey attached to it.

    3. Well, Zangetsu signature power is to be able to shoot energy beams similar to Cero. Getsuga Tenshou is a shikai technique that utilizes that principle (it's possible that indifference to Ichigo, Ishin can't spam it since his Zan doesn't specialize in it).

    From what was shown, Ishin's Zanpakutou Powers are completely different from Ichigo's. Engetsu is a pure Fire Elemental Zanpakutou, with a capability to expand upon the user's blood. While Ichigo's is a physical type with a capability to shoot energy blasts. Hence, the reason why one is called "Fiery Moon", while the other is called "Cutting Moon". GT is a Sword Technique for Ishin, while it is a Shikai Technique for Ichigo. The Moon in the name is more to show a direct blood relation between the two. After all Kaien's Zan was named completely different even though he seems to be Ishin's nephew, or something along those lines.

    "Final", by simply using this word, he might have suggested what he really means is the "Final Quincy Mode", so that OMZ would know what he means without reveling the truth to Ichigo that both of them wanted to hide.

    It seems that most Bankai Spirits are aggressive and uncooperative. Their technique can no longer be forced out (from what Ishin said) and thus you need time to gain their cooperation. By saying that they don't want to teach us those techniques, he might have meant Bankai Techniques in general. Especially seeing as GT is Ishin's Sword Techniqe and not Zanpakutou (for now that is), though he might be able to use it in his Shikai (though from his battle with Whitey it doesn't seem like it).

    4. It might be simply a representation of his Quincy Powers, since they come from a living person (it's possible that Shinigami are the only ones that are able to personify their types of power, hard to say since we only saw Ichigo's inner world). The fact that it looks like Bach 1000 years ago, it means that Kurosaki Quincy Bloodline started 1000 years ago.

    The other possibility is that it is in fact a portion of Bach's Soul, which memories and personality intact of that 1000 years ago (something similar to what Stark did with his Wolfe's it seems).

    5. His parents were silent about it, because they wanted to give him a chance to live a normal human being's lives, Urahara and Ishin even discuss this in the Fullbring Arc.

    Oetsu is the Zansmith, he seems to able to see, the flame's shade and what is inside each person... or one of his Zanpakutou told him. IIRC, in the SS Arc, after Renjii was thrown into prison after his battle with Ichigo, his Zan materialized and said that he is ready and he will not lose to Zangetsu this time, even though, in that battle, it's name was never mentioned. This means that Zanpakutou can communicate which each other, or even see the other's inner world (Ichigo understanding a person from clashing his swords with another, might come from this). It is even shown that one can see and hear the screams of other Zan's, as shown in the fight between Ichigo and Zaraki.

    6. Nah, I'm pretty sure that he is right, that it is Ichigo's Quincy Power, but he might be wrong as to motives behind his actions (well, he didn't state that he was evil or anything, only that he was lying this whole time).

    When you are special, you bring other's attention to yourself, even if unknowingly, not to mention that this attention is rarely a good thing, since those "others" almost always have an ulterior motives in accordance to you being "special". In that regard, both Ichigo and Ishida are special (though Ichigo is on a other whole level ).


    It's also worth mentioning that Power Cores for Shinigami and Quincy are differently placed, so them combining doesn't seem probable (though they are obviously connected to each other). The Quincy core is located a few mm from the heart (make sense, after all being near the heart is the best place to insert reiatsu to veins and artery, quite likely it is strongly connected to the workings of the Blood Arts), while Shinigami Power Core is located somewhere along the spine in the lower abdomen, the place from which the chains spreads, something like that .
    Last edited by Zero; 06-08-2013 at 12:53 PM.



  8. #58
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    I think you are reading way too much into some of those thngs.

    1) I don't think Ichigo has ever used a quincy power before activating Blutvene, never.
    Ginjou could steal the Fullbring, but t was prevously established that smilar things had happened before, it was nothing special. Even more because the fullbring powers seem to be based on a single item, they don't come from within your soul and thus also don't have a representative in the inner world. Besides there is a difference between stealing a fullbring and stealing a technique.

    2) Yea he did stop him, but only to tell him that the spirit is Bach and not his zanpakuto's soul. The point wasn't to say that the name was incorrect. Who knows how OMZ will call himself from now on. It's a name, nobody can tell for sure.
    Yes the coat is red on the inside, but no Bankai does look exactly like the Zanpakut's spirit (at least not the 3 we know of). It still looks more OMZ inspired than anything else.

    3) First of all under normal condtions, since Ichigo's Zanpakuto is always in shikai mode, nobody would be able to tell if Ichigo could use Getsuga Tenshou with just the sealed sword after learning it from OMZ. But the thing is, Ichigo already used it once against the first Menos, before actually knowing how to do it. And nobody knows if Isshin isn't able to shoot a flame version of Getsuga Tenshou, we have hardly seen anything from him yet.

    Assuming that the word final in Final Getsuga Tenhsiu has anythin to do with the final form of a quncy ist imo. just wrong, becuase both words are not even said in the same language. In this regard, final implies that it is the final time someone will be able to use his power. (Of course, in a manga, final is never final ;-) )

    4) It's meaningless to speculate, since there are hundrets of possibilities and we will get the asnwer soon.

    5) His fahter had more than 2 years to tell him everything after he stopped "living a normal life", as well as Urahara and several others while they were training or doing something similar.

    As for Zabimaru knowing Zangetsu's name, I actually can't remember if it really was never mentioned during their fight, but it might just as well be an error on Kubo's side (which is most likely the case).

    6) I didn't mean about OMZ being the Quincy powers but maybe there could be additional details that nobody knows of yet.

    Imo. Ichigo and Ishida being special and thus drawing attention is a lame excuse, just because everybody is intersted in you, doesn't mean that they should always know everything about you. They could study him a lifetime or two and the results could still be unexpected. I think it's just a lame way to write the story (and several character) in a more mysterious way than it (they) has (have) to be. It's more than okay to a certain degree but imo. Kubo is really overdoing it.

  9. #59
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kiduka View Post
    @Zero

    I'm not convinced OMZ was pretending to be Ichigo's Shinigami power,

    I don't think OMZ was pretending at all, going by what Bach said Ichigo's reiatsu memories were dormant. What if OMZ was convinced he was Zangetsu because the reiatsu memories were predominantly Shinigami. It could explain the shinigami power struggle between OMZ and Whitey.
    Kiduka,

    I am very close to agreeing with you. Right now in Bleach, it feels as though the Quincies are the new Bogie men, and Juha Bach is the new Aizen. I hope it won't be that cut and dried.

    1) If Ichigo's Shinigami powers had not been mixed with Whitey, WOuld his inner Avatar have resembled Isshin?
    2) If Ichigo's Quincy powers were from Masaki...A good person, why would his inner Quincy be a bad person? After all the Inner Quincy in Masaki didn't make her bad, so it was not bad or it could be controlled by the Quincy him or herself.
    3) There hasn't been any evidence that Juha Bach can control a quincy's actions through the inner Quincy. If he could, then Ryuuken would be in his grasp already (except if he is and we just don't know it yet).
    4) There is every chance that:

    a) OMZ really thinks or thought he was Zangetsu, or had no idea he was a quincy, or perhaps the source of power in the inner world was irrelivant and the first Avatar to become sentient assumes that he/it is THE AVATAR of the powers inside the inner world.

    b) The More dominant Avatar controls whatever powers there are inside the inner world. If OMZ was more dominant initially (since Ichigo's own Shinigami powers was still being Shackled by being turned to Whitey, and if Ichigo really would have died if OMZ did not reveal himself to Ichigo, Then OMZ claiming the Position and Power to save himself and Ichigo was a fair thing to do.

    5) Going forward, I'd like to see Ichigo come to terms with Hichigo/Whitey and OMZ, and I'd like to see Ouetsu permanently merge/fuse them into one. Hopefully this would keep Juha Bach from grabbing OMZ from Ichigo.

    6) Ichigo is already not a pure shinigami since Whitey is mixed in with his shinigami power, What would really make Ichigo a TRULY UNIQUE being is if he inseparably merged all three powers with his humanity. This where I hope Kubo is headed, This what Aizen wanted to find out about regarding Ichigo, AND I think this merging would somehow bring him closer to the Spirit King himself (purely speculation )

    I am not perfect and I defy you to prove otherwise
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  10. #60
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    ^ I think that soon enough we will also see the situation from Quincy's point of view, seeing as there is a lot of emphasis on it being war and that war happens when both sides are right/good.

    The Arrancars themselves weren't that bad either, most of them were forced to cooperate, plus their standard jungle law, that the strongest person is the leader.

    Quote Originally Posted by Argonar View Post
    0) I think you are reading way too much into some of those thngs.

    1) I don't think Ichigo has ever used a quincy power before activating Blutvene, never.
    Ginjou could steal the Fullbring, but t was prevously established that smilar things had happened before, it was nothing special. Even more because the fullbring powers seem to be based on a single item, they don't come from within your soul and thus also don't have a representative in the inner world. Besides there is a difference between stealing a fullbring and stealing a technique.

    2) Yea he did stop him, but only to tell him that the spirit is Bach and not his zanpakuto's soul. The point wasn't to say that the name was incorrect. Who knows how OMZ will call himself from now on. It's a name, nobody can tell for sure.
    Yes the coat is red on the inside, but no Bankai does look exactly like the Zanpakut's spirit (at least not the 3 we know of). It still looks more OMZ inspired than anything else.

    3) First of all under normal condtions, since Ichigo's Zanpakuto is always in shikai mode, nobody would be able to tell if Ichigo could use Getsuga Tenshou with just the sealed sword after learning it from OMZ. But the thing is, Ichigo already used it once against the first Menos, before actually knowing how to do it. And nobody knows if Isshin isn't able to shoot a flame version of Getsuga Tenshou, we have hardly seen anything from him yet.

    Assuming that the word final in Final Getsuga Tenhsiu has anythin to do with the final form of a quncy ist imo. just wrong, becuase both words are not even said in the same language. In this regard, final implies that it is the final time someone will be able to use his power. (Of course, in a manga, final is never final ;-) )

    4) It's meaningless to speculate, since there are hundrets of possibilities and we will get the asnwer soon.

    5) His fahter had more than 2 years to tell him everything after he stopped "living a normal life", as well as Urahara and several others while they were training or doing something similar.

    As for Zabimaru knowing Zangetsu's name, I actually can't remember if it really was never mentioned during their fight, but it might just as well be an error on Kubo's side (which is most likely the case).

    6) I didn't mean about OMZ being the Quincy powers but maybe there could be additional details that nobody knows of yet.

    Imo. Ichigo and Ishida being special and thus drawing attention is a lame excuse, just because everybody is intersted in you, doesn't mean that they should always know everything about you. They could study him a lifetime or two and the results could still be unexpected. I think it's just a lame way to write the story (and several character) in a more mysterious way than it (they) has (have) to be. It's more than okay to a certain degree but imo. Kubo is really overdoing it.
    0. There is no such thing as over thinking in Bleach, seriously. The amount of foreshadowing and hinting is enormous and they can be grouped into a few levels (from one that most should notice, to those, that one would be lucky to notice). Kubo himself even confirms this.

    1. Old Man Z was appearing, interacting and doing something for the most part of the series, how can you say that he wasn't active ? Him being active, means that some part of the Quincy Powers were also active, just not fully. His Hollow Powers were originally inactive (because they were subdued by Ishin), until the Hollow himself showed up (something about it forming itself into a proper form), thus also braking the bondage between himself and Ishin. It's likely that OMZ was always active and trying to communicate with Ichigo (that's why it seems even more likely that only Shinigami can personify their powers, since it doesn't seem to be the case for Ishida).

    Ginjou not only stole Ichigo's Fullbring, but was even able to copy Getsuge Tenshou. What's stopping Whitey from doing the same, when their powers work on similar principles (Fullbring comes from Hollows after all) ?

    Fullbring powers come from within, it is using your own soul to alter and strengthen the soul within an object that one have bonded with. How that soul in the object is altered, is mainly depended on the user's own power (It's possible that some Quincy use Fullbring along their Quincy Powers, like one that turned into an ape, seems similar to Chad's own Fullbring of altering his own skin's soul).

    2. I think that it would have been phrased differently, like saying: "not quite", but he directly states that it's "wrong".

    It does seem a little strange that the Zan Spirit, that is a personification of Zan Power, would need to change, when it already, from the very beginning, holds all the power. Ichigo's Inner Spirits are always shown holding his sword in different releases, so what's the point of changing the Spirits, when it's only about changing the sword ? When Whitey, who is seemingly his true Zanpakutou, activated Bankai, it only changed his gear, but not him itself (though one has to wonder, if the new looks with the mask is one that comes with him entering Bankai later on or something permanent ?). That's why it's possible that Tense Zangetsu is a remnant of Ichigo's original Shinigami Power and that H2-Whitey is his oryginal Hollow powers, while the Fusion Zangetsu, is how his powers have fused together, as Oetsu said, and how they properly look. This leaves OMZ as separate Quincy Powers, though Ichigo seemingly also had Fullbring Powers from the very beginning (I guess him being clad in his own power is somewhat of an indication of it).

    It's really hard to say, when we only have seen Ichigo's Inner World, because he is special among special so there might a lot of things different for him.

    3. Ichigo can use GT without his Zanpakutou, it was proven by him using it with his Fullbring, since originally, Getsuga Tenshou is a Sword Technique (then again it is mentioned that some portion of his Shinigami Power is mingled with his Fullbring). Of course, since his Zanpakutou specializes in firing something similar to it, it can shoot it better and likely more frequently, while in Bankai it gains a better version of it.

    There is also a similar, but much weaker technique, like GT every Shinigami can use (what was it called again ?) and it seems that it was it. It's the same thing, a "practice swing" that Ichigo's used before firring of GT in the Fullbring Arc against Ginjou.

    4. What do you mean meaningless ? This thread is about discussing and predicting what's going to happen, it entails speculating .

    Still, for his Quincy Powers to looks exactly like Bach 1000 years ago, means that they weren't at all altered through those years, or perhaps each Quincy gains a fresh copy of those that were first spread around.

    5. Hm ? It was a hectic time for Ichigo before since the first arc up to the final battle with Aizen (Hollows, Shinigami, Inner Hollow, Vizards, Arrancer, Aizen, there was a lot to worry about). After his battle with Aizen he once again could have returned to be a normal human, there was no point in Ishin's spilling his own guts, especially if he wanted preserve his son's normal life, seeing as it might have lead Ichigo to desire revenge, since Bach seems to be at least partially responsible for his mother's death. The current arc seems to have been right after the Fullbring arc, so after he gained his power, there wasn't that much time to talk about it.

    6. The people that are interested in Ichigo are far from normal. Aizen and Urahara are basically highly intelligent supernatural scientist with hundreds of years of experiments and the like. Bach himself knows mainly about Ichigo's Quincy Power, after all he is the source for it and they obviously have studied them for many years (thus the line about Souken's turning back from all those achievements that they made in recent decades/centuries). Why would be Aizen shocked about Ichigo, when the reason that Ichigo is the way he is, is mostly Aizen's fault ?

    Ichigo completely fusing with his own Zan was shocking as hell for Aizen. He only started to think about the proper notion and fusion between Zan and Shinigami, when he witnessed that his and Ichigo's swords are now connected/fused to their arms. This also suggests that it was perhaps a coincidence that Whitey is made the same way as Asauchi (still with Aizen you never know ).


    BTW, this page is a little interesting:
    Spoiler!

    in the top right panel, OMZ is gathering spiritual energy from the surrounding and saying that Ichigo can also do it (notice that he says that Ichigo can control spirits around him and not from within him). It seems that he actually explains how to use that disc move of the Quincy, but Ichigo doesn't understand and thus he changes the topic to how Ichigo used his Shinigami powers for similar purpose.

    Or here, look at his "strange", somewhat angry expression when he tells Ichigo that he has his own Shinigami Powers:
    Spoiler!


    If OMZ was his Shinigami Power personified, then there would be no need to find them, since they are already before him. Hence he was not his Shinigami Power, but Quincy powers from the beginning.
    Last edited by Zero; 06-08-2013 at 09:47 PM.



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