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  1. #31
    Senior Member Titokhan's Avatar
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    Paul,

    I think the hollow fused to Ichigo's latent shinigami powers because his father's power was what was kept his mother safe as she was transforming. so it latched onto the type of power that was keeping it at bay.
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  2. #32
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drgnx View Post
    This is assuming Ichigo learned his proper Bankai. Didn't Byakuya not find Ichigo's Bankai strange because it compressed rather than expanded? That seemed similar to how Quincies can absorb Spirit particles. Lets not forget that Old man could have had influence on what both Itchigo and Hitchigo could access as a weapon, since it seemed Ichigo never really accessed his Zan the proper way, we don't know the full scope of what that means now... Even after the Merger with Old Man and Hollow, Ichigo's Bankai never changed much, I think it just merged with him.
    Yamamoto's Bankai is also a condensed one, plus there are still many Bankais that we haven't seen, so there might be more like his. Byakuya simply hadn't the chance to experience or see that many Bankais, plus he changed his first opinion by admitting that it is a Bankai specialized for hyper-speed combat (the speed trait was later greatly reduced so that Ichigo isn't overpowered ;P, of course it still exist but not as potent as it originally was).

    Quote Originally Posted by Yellowcardus View Post
    1. Ichigo get's powers from Rukia. - His actual powers are dormant. this has been explained early on. His Asauchi and therfore Zanpaktou, and therefore hollow powers, would not wake up either, naturally. - Makes Sense

    2. Rukia's powers are destroyed by Byakuya. Urahara decides to wake up Ichigo's actual powers. - He emerges from the pit with a mask on, and a Shinigami robe. If these powers are fused, then they would wake up together. Furthermore, his father regains his powers, because he's no logner bound to the now awakened, hollow - Makes Sense

    3. He is told the name of his Zanpaktou and summon's it - He has an Asauchi since birth, but it seems wierd that he would learn the name from an imposter... unles the name is fake - ?

    4. He almost get's killed by Zaraki who breaks his sword, he is then drawn inside his inner world, and forced to fight against Whitey. DESPITE the fact, that he's fighting to get more Shinigami powers. - Throughout the fight Whitey calls out to Ichigo, that he has a magnificent Zanpaktou, he doesn't know how to use, or try to understand. He uses Zangetsu in creative ways. - Makes Sense.

    5. When looking at Whitey all Ichigo can feel is Zangetsu's overwhelming power. at the and of the fight Juha's image, and Whitey merge. - there is but one problem in this scene. Whitey refers to Juha's image as "Zangetsu-San" which only makes sense IF Zangetsu is a made up name. Equally important is that he claims these powers will be his, in the future. - ?

    6. He learns Bankai through training with fake Zangetsu. - Unless his Bankai is also fake - Doesnt Make Sense

    7. Ichigo's hollow powers surface during the fight against Byakuya. They save his live. - The hollow continues the trend of looking down on Ichigo. Laughing at him for destroying his body with his own Bankai. He uses a new type of attack, Black Getsuga. - ?

    8. His Hollow powers start taking over during fights where he uses Bankai - This could be explained in more than one way, still, if the bankai is real (comes from Whitey), it can be true, as excecive use of shinigami powers = surfacing of hollow powers. - ?

    9. Ichigo conquers his hollow powers by defeating Whitey - If these powers are fused, and they are, then - Makes Sense

    10. He has to fight both his Quincy powers and Shinigami/Hollow powers to attain FGT form... Did he loose all powers at that time? where his Quincy powers restored by the Shinigami? - Doesnt Make Sense
    1.The first part is quite vague, but he indeed gained Asauchi the moment he took Rukia's power, seeing as he could cleanse souls and do soul burials with it (only Shinigami powers have cleansing properties).

    2. Technically, Ichigo's own Shinigami powers awakened when he was fighting his first Gilliam, during his fight with Uryu (http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...9-page-19.html). Aizen says that it was the battle against Uryu, a Quincy, that awakened his Shinigami power, quite interesting don't you think ? It wouldn't be the last time that a fight against Quincy have awakened something within Ichigo and it seems that almost always, the power that awakens within him, is the one he is currently facing (Uryu - Fake Zangetsu, Ulqiora - H2Ichigo, Opie - Quincy Techniques).

    3. The name might be true, but the one pulling the strings might have been the Old Man, since it seems that Old Man was the one that took over Zangetsu-White, thanks to his power being superior, but when White's power went up, the one in control was him (white) and he does mention that he is Zangetsu (http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...8-page-16.html,http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...18-page-9.html). He even mentions it more than once (http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...8-page-17.html). Though later on, in chapter mentioned above, when he mentions Zangetsu, he mentions it in regard to overall power that Ichigo holds, rather than a single being or a Zanpakutou and the Old Man is indeed part of Ichigo's (Quincy) Power.

    It could be said that Ichigo was drawing his Zanpakutou's power through Old Man Z, since it seems that Old Man Z was in control of Ichigo's Zanpakutou through certain part of the series. Seeing as, from what Bach said, most of Old Man Z's power was dormant until Opie's reiatsu reawakened it, thus at some point he didn't had enough power to control Ichigo's Zanpakutou and the more it was growing, the less he and Ichigo had control over it.

    Another important moment is what happened after Ichigo first activated his Shikai. On it's own will, without Ichigo's consent, it attacked Urahara, a Shinigami, with it's full might (at that time). It was wild like White is (frankly speaking, most Zanpakutou seem uncooperative), it was supposed to be, but right after that, Ichigo could use it normally, which was quite surprising at that time and up to now. Seeing as Ichigo didn't do much to gain control over it, it's safe to assume that Old Man Z put shackles on White right after that attack and from that point on was in control of it, until it grew too strong.

    It's also worth mentioning that in the inner fight between Ichigo and White, after Ichigo's Bankai starts to disappear, he mentions that the Black Sword is NOT "Zangetsu" (http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...20-page-9.html). Later on Ichigo takes the White Sword for his own.

    Though in the end White mentions that he doesn't have a name, in Ichigo vs Byakuya fight, so who knows (http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...5-page-20.html)?

    4. The one doing the actual teaching, was always White, the Old Man was leading Ichigo to learn from him. At Zaraki fight, he makes Ichigo face White in order to repair the Shikai. In order to master Bankai, Old Man forces Ichigo to unleash GT from the Zanpakutou, he doesn't teach it to him, he rather creates an opportunity were Ichigo can learn this. The same goes with the Bankai Techqniues. All Bankai technique that Ichigo learned are at least partially from White.

    5. At that point the one ruling was Old Man. Calling him Zangetsu-san might have been equal to calling him King.

    6. As mentioned, rather than teaching him, the Old Man creates opportunity, for Ichigo to learn and draw from his own Zanpakutou the GT technique. The one that shows/teaches Ichigo how to use the actual Bankai, is Whity himself (http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...66-page-5.html).

    7. He forces Ichigo to learn, since only White can actually teach him.

    8. Whity did mentions something about him taking over Old Man, thus each time when Ichigo was drawing a power from his Zanpakutou, he was drawing it from Whity (http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...8-page-18.html those translations are a little off though ). From what Zansmith said, it can be deduced that this would be the normal way, if it wasn't for Old Man Z.

    9. Throughout the whole fight, Whity is teaching and explaining things to Ichigo (if he wanted to simply take over, what point in explaining everything ?), after which Ichigo learns how to use his hollow powers a little bit.

    10. Tensa Zangetsu quite likely isn't Old Man Z and so it is even mentioned, that they are different. The Tensa Zangetsu is perhaps the part of Ichigo's Original Shinigami powers, quite likely, seeing as he only displays the enhanced speed to comes with his Bankai, without using Getsuga.

    Besides, there is a great difference between Old Man and Tensa Zangetsu, the fact that Whity can only merge with Tensa to create a new form, while on the other hand he can only be absorbed and controlled by Old Man or the other way around. Basically, the Tensa Zangetsu and Whity, are Ichigo's Zanpakutou, split between his Shinigami and Hollow traits, that's why they can fully merge into a proper form. In other words, Whity, is Ichigo's Shikai Spirit, while Whity H2 fused with Tensa Zangetsu (Fusion Zangetsu), is Ichigo's Bankai Spirit. This again means that Old Man Zangetsu is another type of power separated from the two (as it was explained in this chapter).

    The fact that Ichigo's Hollow powers and Zanpakutou are the same, is reasonable. After all, Vizards seemingly cannot use Bankai with a Hollow Mask (or at least it wasn't shown, thought the only Vizard Bankai we know of is Kensei's), while Ichigo mostly (or was it only ?)uses it in accordance with his Bankai.

    The fact that Ichigo returned to his normal form after entering H2Ichigo stage, is also quite strange. If Whity really wanted total dominance, he could have easily healed only his surface wounds from the blast, he didn't need to heal and revert completely.



  3. #33
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Titokhan View Post
    Paul,

    I think the hollow fused to Ichigo's latent shinigami powers because his father's power was what was kept his mother safe as she was transforming. so it latched onto the type of power that was keeping it at bay.
    The Whitey could not fuse with Isshin from a distance, but since it was designed to fuse with a Shingami, it fused with Ichigo or at least with his Shinigami half.

    I blieve that was in essence Ouetsu's comment.

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  4. #34
    Senior Member drgnx's Avatar
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    Zero, Fair enough
    Spoiler!

  5. #35
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    For someone that was sealed for 900 years, Bach certainly got old fast in those 100 years that he was regaining his mind and power (assuming that when he was sealed he wasn't aging). He looked much better when he was younger. Still, how come an image of Bach from 1000 years ago has sunglasses, when it still should be a few hundred years before they even come up with such a modern design like Old Man Z's, or is that it's distribution was slowed down because the creator of it was sealed for so long ;P ?

    Speaking about those that suddenly got old fast, wasn't Ishin's aging speed up a bit after Masaki's death ? The day his wife died, he looked pretty much the same way he looked as a captain. Is it stress or what (taking care of 3 children by himself should be stressful) ?

    Anyway, is it safe to assume that the reason that Getsuga Tenshou is the power of Ichigo's Shikai, is because the hollow had learned and incorporated it when Ishin partially destroyed it with it in Masaki's inner world (thus also sending to it it's energy pattern and the like ?) ? Seeing as Whitey is Ichigo's true Zanpakutou and even have an evolved version of GT in Bankai form, then this should be the case, right ?

    Now that I think about it, the reason why Ichigo's sword is mostly black and fully black in Bankai mode, is because the armor of Whitey, it's outer appearance was also black, while it's inside, the same way as Hichigo, is white. So I guess that it will remain black.

    I'm starting to wonder if perhaps the Quincy Emperor wasn't known as Yhwach "Z" Juhabach and we all know what "Z" stands for, kukukuku.

    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    Very good reading, Yellow.

    I also went back to re-read the current chapter, and I still don't get the full meaning. I sense that neither Mangastream nor Mangapanda got the thing right, and we'll egt more info over the next few chapters.

    1) There is no way that Asauchis are made from dead Shinigamis, What Ouetsu was saying was that The Asauchi he made for Ichigo will draw out Hollow Ichigo's power, true Zangetsu's power, and not The Faker OMG.

    2) He's MAY also be saying that Asauchis are made from a similar principle to Aizen's Whitey to the extent (I think), that the whitey can merge with a Shinigami's soul. In the same way Asauchis are made to Merge with a Shinigami.

    There is now a question of what would happen to OMZ. I personally feel and hope that Zangetsu remains inside Ichigo as a true ally. It was obvious when reading the chapter where Tensa Zangetsu taught Ichigo the FGT that Tensa Zangetsu really cared for/loved Ichigo. It would be a shame to have OMG removed.

    I also doubt that Ichigo can re-enter the FGT state as powerfully as he did if the quincy powers are taken away. Finally it would be wrong to think ill of all quincies and quincy powers, given that those powers are a herritage from Masaki who loved Ichigo deeply.

    I would love Ouetsu to give Ichigo a chance to talk to OMG and decide if he wants to blend him with the real Zangetsu or not.
    The Asauchi made from Shinigami Souls sounds legit, the very fact of their cleansing powers, is a prove of that, since only Shinigami's soul attacks have cleansing properties, regardless of what style they uses, supposedly. Beside, if Urahara is making anti-hollowification vaccine and a special shell from Human Souls, what would be stopping Oetsu from using Shinigami Souls (though he doesn't say if he takes portions of living ones, or full ones of the dead) ? What's more, it's quite clear that SK would have and is allowing him to do it, he even rewarded him for it. Plus, this would explain why the death of Shinigami doesn't offset the Balance, seeing as they are immediately used as a base for Asauchi after their death (that super world gate that Oetsu uses is probably for this purpose). In that case they would enter the cycle of reincarnation only after they die as Zanpakutou with their Shinigami partners.

    You do realize that Ichigo only recently awakened his Quincy Powers ? The amount of power that Old Man Z had at the beginning was small, it probably was more akin to Ichigo's above average spiritual pressure as human, since only recently the memories of his power returned, or whatever Bach was saying. Seeing as the Quincy powers were not activated, they weren't, at least not fully, incorporated into FGT. The missing spot in Ichigo's Transformation, might very well be the missing Quincy Power that was yet to awaken.

    There is really no sense in Old Man Z being the same as Tensa Zangetsu, why would he even go through a Shinigami Power Transformation from Shikai to Bankai, when he is Quincy Power and has no real relation to Ichigo's Zanpakutou (according to what Oetsu said), indifference to Ichigo's Hollow power ? Why would his personality even change after that ? In the first place Quincy don't have something like Bankai, they have something more akin to Resurrection.

    There is more, the way that Old Z and Tensa Zangetsu summon Hichigo is different. At the beginning of the series it is shown that Hichigo is being released and absorbed from/into Old Man Z, until the part that Whitey becomes too strong for his unawakened power to control him (Hichigo at some point mentions that he doesn't know where Old Man Z is, in the Vizard Inner Battle. It's more like he assumes that he was absorbed, but that might not be the case). While Tensa Zangetsu has to pull Hichigo from within Ichigo and not from within himself. Not to mention that only Tensa Zangetsu and Hichigo H2 can form a totally new being, that seems to be Ichigo's true Zan Spirit (assuming that FGT is indeed a Shinigami technique).

    We technically still need to wait for a personification of Ichigo's Fullbring Power, even though it's supposedly bases on Hollowe power, it's still active even though his Hollow Zanpakutou is being reforged at the moment. It's possible that it is in Old Man Z's control currently (Quincy proved to have the ability to absorb not only reishi but even whole spiritual creatures/beings).



  6. #36
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    Damn, been so long i've read this forum haha. Now , so many question and so many thing to search for.

    As for whitey being his shikai/bankai or zanpaktou, it's nearly impossible otherwise his Vizard power would be lost/fake.

    I don't understand how the bach illusion in Ichigo's head got the name of the zanpaktou. The point made that the zanpaktou went crazy once it was summoned and then the spirit shackled, could be reasonable as an option. But then, does quincy have so much power to hold/take over shinigami power?

    Tensa Zangetsu, was probly the real name of the zanpaktou, But as soon as he said the first part of his name ( in jap it's last name first no?) So it's would have been "zangetsu Tensa"? and as soon as the first name was said, eh was silenced and taken over. I guess i'm going overboard with this lol.

    Also... It was said the Quincy couldn't steal Ichigo's bankai. But now, wouldn't it be possible to steal it if he has a real znapaktou and a real bankai?

  7. #37
    Mind f*cked beyond repair Stev3child's Avatar
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    Ahhh so I was right and Aizen was creating Asauchi and Whitey was an example of one. Aizen just adopts everyone's genius inventions doesn't he. Urahara's Hogyoku, this guy's Asauchi. Wonder what other inventions he's appropriating for his schemes...

    So if I interpreted the chapter properly, Quincies descend from Shinigami- well, a shinigami. So when Hollows influence the human world, the result will be fullbringers. When shinigami influence the human world, the result or one of possible results, is quincies? I wonder where Orihime fits into this. She seems to be the only character that dodges classification.

    Now onto a shitload of questions this chapter has brought to my attention:

    If Ichigo and his father share Zangetsu, is Ichigo's bloodline the actual bloodline of Bach? Does this mean Bach is a Shiba clansman? What significance is the Shiba clan to SS, or all royal families for that matter?

    Assuming he is a shinigami, why would he want to create quincies? He knows that their existence would threaten the stability of Soul Society. What does this tell you about his ambition?

    Considering the above, this is the most disturbing part. If Bach is both a Shiba and the father(spiritually at least) of all quincy, does that mean Ichigo is result of some type of spiritually incestuous relationship!?

    I have a lot more questions but I'm gonna browse the thread first to see if they were already asked and I think this chapter has given me some ideas for a thread.
    Last edited by Stev3child; 06-06-2013 at 01:04 AM.
    QUOTE(s) OF THE MOMENT

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    I swear if your theories were any dumber I would be retarded...

  8. #38
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    Stev, it's more like Ichigo has shinigami power from his Dad from the shiba clan. And quincy power from his mother which is from bach bloodline.

  9. #39
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    ........................


    ....(1)....The Asauchi made from Shinigami Souls sounds legit, the very fact of their cleansing powers, is a prove of that, .....
    ....(2)....Plus, this would explain why the death of Shinigami doesn't offset the Balance

    ....(3)...You do realize that Ichigo only recently awakened his Quincy Powers ?

    ....(4)...The amount of power that Old Man Z had at the beginning was small, it probably was more akin to Ichigo's above average spiritual pressure as human, since only recently the memories of his power returned, or whatever Bach was saying. Seeing as the Quincy powers were not activated, they weren't, at least not fully, incorporated into FGT.

    ....(5)...There is really no sense in Old Man Z being the same as Tensa Zangetsu

    ....(6)...the way that Old Z and Tensa Zangetsu summon Hichigo is different. At the beginning of the series it is shown that Hichigo is being released and absorbed from/into Old Man Z,

    ....(7)...We technically still need to wait for a personification of Ichigo's Fullbring Power, even though it's supposedly bases on Hollowe power, it's still active even though his Hollow Zanpakutou is being reforged at the moment. It's possible that it is in Old Man Z's control currently (Quincy proved to have the ability to absorb not only reishi but even whole spiritual creatures/beings).
    On (1)..I doubt that Even SS would be so low as to cannibalize their own people.

    On (2)..Dead Shinigami revert to pure spiritual particles and are eventually reborn as humans

    On (3)..Outward use, yes certainly. But even if unused, that power was still inside Ichigo. This does not necessarily mean much.

    On (4)..I think that in the perfect fusion state of FGT, all powers latent or not were used.

    On (5)..The fact that it doesn't fit your theory doesnt mean that it makes no sense . Anyway Tensa Zangetsu said he was Bankai version of OMZ, and He can't even be Hichigo because he later fused with Hichigo, was he fusing with himself? If not OMZ, and not Hichigo, then what is he?

    On (6)..That's a conclusion. Things could just be different in Bankai state.

    On (7).. Well the other fullbringers don't have an OMZ in them, yet they fullbring.

    I am not perfect and I defy you to prove otherwise
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  10. #40
    Scanlator POW's Avatar
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    On (1)..I doubt that Even SS would be so low as to cannibalize their own people.
    SS routinely kills off regularly souls in the R city area to balance souls Paul


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