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  1. #91
    Senior Member janfeae's Avatar
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    @Paul oh no no, not human transformations. Even part 1 genin could tell them apart. For instance, in the Zabuza arc, Naruto threw two shuriken at two Guard Ninja. They deflected it and then the shuriken turned into Naruto, and he attacked from behind.

    Do you remember how Minato bested Obito with his FTG? If someone threw a shuriken at an opponent, and then transformed the second they dodged it, it would almost be like having a watered down Flying Raijin level 2 lol

  2. #92
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by janfeae View Post
    @Paul oh no no, not human transformations. Even part 1 genin could tell them apart. For instance, in the Zabuza arc, Naruto threw two shuriken at two Guard Ninja. They deflected it and then the shuriken turned into Naruto, and he attacked from behind.

    Do you remember how Minato bested Obito with his FTG? If someone threw a shuriken at an opponent, and then transformed the second they dodged it, it would almost be like having a watered down Flying Raijin level 2 lol
    janafeae you are talking about a Shadow technique, like the Shadow shuriken that Sasuke used against Zabuza. I am quite sure that the ninjas would be well able to use this technique during the war. The problem for the Ninjas is not how to hit the enemy (something that a Shadow technique would help to do). The Zetsus are easy to hit, the problem is that there are too many of them and they attack in waves.

    Moreover, these techniques would be pointless against Obito/Tobi, and don't even think of Madara (LOL).

    So the answer to your original question is that the "Transformation" is probably being done where it confers an advantage. It just doesn't help much when you're attacked by waves of Zetsus, some of them Transformed into you buddies with an identical Chakra configuration as your buddy.

    A Question about the Anime:

    Has anyone else noticed that twice now, the anime has depicted Zetsus being able to use/duplicate the techniques of people they have copied. Of course this has only happened in filler episodes up till now.

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  3. #93
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    The question that comes to mind indirectly having read your post is this, Is Sage Mode (TOAD STYLE) different from Snake/Dragon style, or Hashirama's?

    We have only seen people turning into Stone frogs along with the Cannot move restriction only with Toad style sage mode. Kabuto and Hashirama seem to be able to move as they please.

    On the other hand, it seems that the Quantity of Sage energy from Toad Style Sage mode seems to be overwhelmingly large, and its benefits seem to be superior to the other styles.

    If Toad Style Sage Energy is not throttled and carefully balanced, it rushes into the user uncontrollably and transforms them into a Toad and then into stone. I say it is more powerful because of the tendency for it to gush into the user who has to willfully slow it down and balance it. Furthermore, it confers resistance to injury and the ability to damage an opponent from a (small) distance

    My conclusion for the meanwhile is that Toad Style Sage mode is more powerful (conferring more natural energy)than the others.
    A different mutation appears when one attains an incomplete form, so there is some kind of difference.

    From what I have noticed, in order to enter into all of the shown Sage Modes (not counting CS) the user needs to be motionless in order to gather enough Natural Energy, so that the transformation occurs without any additional mutations. It doesn't matter what stance one takes, as long as one is motionless. The time needed to enter Sage Mode depends on the user's skill and experience with it (Naruto have shown in this war that his time was getting shorter). It's worth mentioning that by attaining Jyugo's power, Kabuto was able to draw out Natural Energy even after moving in Sage Mode and since his total pool of energy went up, the amount he would draw improved as well, making his Sage Mode the most permanent one of the known ones (this was suggested by Kabuto's implication on what he did with Jyugo).

    No it is not. The total amount of Sage Energy is depended on the user's original chakra pool. If the Sage Mode is performed perfectly, then the amount of energy should go up about 1/3, while it's quality would went even further up. The transformation's effectiveness depends on the balance between energies. The more perfect it is, the greater are it's benefits. In this case, the one that gains the greatest boost in amount of energy would have been Hashirama, since his base chakra pool is the greatest of the shown ninja up to date (though So6p might have proved to be even superior).

    Even though Chakra is composed of Physical and Spiritual Energies, there are different types of it as well. For example there is Yin and Yang Chakra, where one contains more potent physical energies while the other more potent spiritual energies (this is actually how Kyubi's Chakra was divided by Minato, since Humans are unable to divide pure energies of other beings, probably because of their intangible forms, indifference to Chakra that can be held on hand and felt by skin). In similar fashion when one's soul is stolen, or part of it, it is not solely spiritual energies that are stolen, but the Yin? Chakra that contains the most of it.

    In other words, it is likely that some Sage Modes are based on Yin Chakras (Snake ?), other on Yang Chakras (Hashirama's ?) and one that bases on true balance (Frog ?). Seeing as some people have more of certain types, one being of true balance would have been disadvantageous, since the user would never be able to fully use his energies and would be limited by an amount of truly balanced chakra that he can mold from them.

    Senjutsu Transformations is another name for Sage Modes and CS is a means of gaining a portion of that ability (from what Kabuto said, that this power can only be truly gained through training), of course there are other benefits that CS has that SM doesn't.

    CS is probably special in itself, seeing as it adapts to the user (each person had a different transformation), being able to strengthen completely different types of Kekkei Genkais. It affects the user's body as well as his mental state. The amount of people of good enough quality bodies that could survive CS2 was, 10%?(it was awhile so I'm not sure how much it actually was), while even most of those still went mad when transforming. Even Sasuke's mind was clearly affected by CS1 the first time he activated it, even though as an Uchiha he posses an above average spiritual/mind energies (in time he learned how to balance Natural Energy when transforming as seen after time skip, where he could freely transform parts of his body, which was commented on as rare).

    The power of the Natural Energy is even more vivid in Jyugo, where it clearly transforms his body and affects his mind to the point that he gains a second personality.

    Technically Sage Mode should be better than CS2, but it all depends on the user in the end. Of course CS itself is a little different from Jyuho's power, since beside it CS also contains a portion of Orochimaru's Sage Chakra (supposedly it's balance is even worse than Jiraya's, but it is still Senjutsu Chakra).
    Last edited by Zero; 06-03-2013 at 08:24 PM.


  4. #94
    Senior Member janfeae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    janafeae you are talking about a Shadow technique, like the Shadow shuriken that Sasuke used against Zabuza. I am quite sure that the ninjas would be well able to use this technique during the war. The problem for the Ninjas is not how to hit the enemy (something that a Shadow technique would help to do). The Zetsus are easy to hit, the problem is that there are too many of them and they attack in waves.

    Moreover, these techniques would be pointless against Obito/Tobi, and don't even think of Madara (LOL).

    So the answer to your original question is that the "Transformation" is probably being done where it confers an advantage. It just doesn't help much when you're attacked by waves of Zetsus, some of them Transformed into you buddies with an identical Chakra configuration as your buddy.

    A Question about the Anime:

    Has anyone else noticed that twice now, the anime has depicted Zetsus being able to use/duplicate the techniques of people they have copied. Of course this has only happened in filler episodes up till now.

    Lol, well I suppose you are right. I just feel it can be used in ingenious ways. Like when Naruto transformed a bunch of clones into rocks during the fight with the last Pein. Just feel it's a little underrated is all, even though it is an Academy basic in the world of ninjas. On the subject of powerful ninjas however, I do wonder how Madara can be defeated, and if the 5 kages will return battle ready.

  5. #95
    Senior Member Nano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    I think it's the unbalanced absorption of Sage Energy (Don't think it's really chakra), that transmutes you into a stone frog. I am therefore inclined to think that Naruto can dish some of it out in two ways, (1) as sage Energy, (2) as converted Sage Energy.

    If Naruto dished it out as raw unconverted Sage energy, the result would be the same as the Pain Fatso...except if Naruto stops dishing it out at the first sign of trouble.

    If Naruto gave out the Mixture after he had already balanced it out (as I think Pratesh was saying), then There should be No Problem whatsoever if he balances it to suit the receiver. It would be just like him giving out Kyuubi's Chakra.

    @Janafe, I rather think the Zetsus, Tobi, and Madara would notice that the transformation is not the real item. Even Kabuto would not be fooled given his assumed snake-like sense of smell.
    I get what you are trying to say, but i still dont think that would work. Fukusaku said that you needed a massive chakra in order to balance the demands of the Natural Energy - Too little and it would not do anything, and too much and it would turn you into a statue. 95% of the Ninjas in the alliance would fall under the too little category to actually use it to supplement their own Jutsu's. Meaning that they dont have the 'pool' to balance the use of it with. Those that have the pool to use it would not be able to sense it, so they could not build the amount of natural energy to match the Jutsu - how could they, they cant sense it - They would turn into Statues.

    I guess if Naruto waited until they built up the amount of chakra they wanted to use on a jutsu and Naruto added the exact amount of Natural energy it could work, but then they would not receive any of the 'body activation' that comes from the process of balancing the Natural Energy within yourself and achieving Sage Mode. So they would get none of the extra durability, speed or power benefits and Naruto would have to do that ever time they wanted to use it.

    My personal opinion is that Natural Energy is Natural energy - balanced or not - there is no difference between that which Naruto brings into his body and what he could give to others, making anyone who was not proficient at sensing and balancing it (within their own body and chakra amounts and then entering SM) it would turn them into statues.
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  6. #96
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    Although i like Sakura, has a caracter, lots more than Hinata, Ino and Tenten, i think that her power up is a little disappointed, i would like to see sage mode, but then again, we never saw or had any hint that Tsunade could.
    I'm only disappointed that, if she had that ability, she would have used it against Sasori or even Pain. Even with a non full seal, the amount of 2 years and a few months would have come in handy against Sasori, what good would it make her to die in that fight with that chakra stored in a seal that wouldn't ever be released ?

    The same against Pain, your village his completely brought down, destroyed in a heart beat and she just sits and watch and cries for Naruto ? even 2 years of chakra could make a stand against Pain until Naruto appeared.

    It's just like an arcade video game, you normally store your best power up for the bosses, but if your on the break of losing the game, you use it has a last resort, at least it's my point of view, and this is why, that at this point, her power-up seems rushed.

    But i don't think that it put's her on pair with Naruto and Sasuke, in theory, if the 3 of them completely drain their chakra levels, Naruto and Sasuke, probably after a day of rest, could have their levels full again, Sakura would need 3 years to be "on their level" again, this technique is some what like Shisui's eye, its only useful from time to time (years).

    On the sage chakra topic

    I think that it wouldn't make sense if Naruto could share sage mode/natural energy.

    A complete sage mode is attained, when oneself can perfectly balance natural energy, with its own physical and spiritual energy.

    Different shinobi, have different levels of the 2, plus to add natural energy to every single different shinobi in the field, would be a big downside (in my opinion), sage mode, is an ability only attained by a few shinobi.

    - Orochimaru had probably the most incomplete form, since he needed the cursed seal.
    - Kabuto, was next up, due to Jyuugo's cells he was constantly gathering natural energy, and not being able to fully balance it, probably having more energy that is own physical and spiritual ones, got that snake atributes.
    - Jiraya was a better sage than the previous 2, he only had a a few appearances to a frog, so a little more natural energy in is body than the one he could balanced.
    - Naruto attained a perfect sage mode, he acquires the sage eyes and the "shade" around his eyes, a perfect balance between the 3 energies.
    - Harashirama, also has what it seems to be a perfect sage mode, although he still don't know it origins.

    I could also accept and believe, that Minato could also have sage mode (even if incomplete like jiraya), but due to his style (FTG), the time needed to enter sage mode (even with the frogs in the shoulders, wouldn't fit him, but this is me drifting from the point

    To resume, unlike kurama chakra that's only normal chakra, that probably needs only a tinny "tweak" to allow Naruto giving away to anyone, natural energy requires a perfect balance between oneself energies, and everyone has different level of any of those 2.

    Just my 2 cents.

  7. #97
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    @Nano and Majere,

    Using Kuubi Chakra as analogy It is doubtfull that anyone would be able to handle Kyuubi's chakra, even with the evil mind of the Kyuubi removed. Kurama said so himself. What Naruto did was first to import Kyuubi chakra into himself, then to dsitribute the stable chakra to everyone, based on each one's physiology.

    With Sage Mode, Naruto becomes a Sage after Storing a Ballanced Mixture of Natural energy and Chakra in himself. At this point he stops ingesting more natural energy. The Natural energy he ingested is now stable and mixed with Naruto's chakra. You cannot separate the two anymore.

    In theory Naruto should be able to distribute this balanced mix he has stored inside himself, but he'd have to rebalance it for the recipient.


    Let me add a last point here. This is all fan Speculation. The Only one who knows for sure is Kishi, however, While Naruto can't share Sage itself, he might be able to share Sage energy + Chakra mix that he's already storing/using. If Kishi wanted to make this happen I don't think it violates any previously known precedents in the Narutoverse.
    Last edited by paulbee; 06-04-2013 at 01:16 PM.

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  8. #98
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    ^i maintain the visual manifestation of such a technique would cause the affected ninja to don a toad sage narucloak. that or naruto would fuse to the ninja's body like ma and pa with jiraiya.

  9. #99
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    Well in theory, there aren't any boundaries anymore in narutoverse

    I personally can't see Naruto balancing Sage Chakra to each individual shinobi, who has different levels of physical and spiritual energies, to balance with natural energy.

    It would also make no sense, that even if he could balanced it, like he did with Kuubi Chakra, due to the fact that unlike Kuubi Chakra that it represent a huge pool of chakra, Sage Mode only lasts so long, in Naruto's case, with a full "tank" of sage mode he can perform 2 WRS (wind rasen shuriken).

    Also, i do think that even if he could balanced the chakra, the receiver would still need to rebalanced it, with the rest of chakra that he/she still had, and would need to keep it balanced so that it wouldn't turn to a frog stone.

    But it's just a point of view and all are valid in our speculation

  10. #100
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Majere View Post
    Well in theory, there aren't any boundaries anymore in narutoverse

    I personally can't see Naruto balancing Sage Chakra to each individual shinobi, who has different levels of physical and spiritual energies, to balance with natural energy.

    It would also make no sense, that even if he could balanced it, like he did with Kuubi Chakra, due to the fact that unlike Kuubi Chakra that it represent a huge pool of chakra, Sage Mode only lasts so long, in Naruto's case, with a full "tank" of sage mode he can perform 2 WRS (wind rasen shuriken).

    Also, i do think that even if he could balanced the chakra, the receiver would still need to rebalanced it, with the rest of chakra that he/she still had, and would need to keep it balanced so that it wouldn't turn to a frog stone.

    But it's just a point of view and all are valid in our speculation
    I cannot disagree with anything you've said, my friend. I also appreciate the comity with which you and so many others have made these boards fun.

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