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  1. #41
    The French Tickler pratesh's Avatar
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    Ok, so I remember Aizen saying that his reasons for seeking a method of hollowfication is that no matter if you master all 4 of the fighting methods for shinigami, you still hit its limit. We also saw that Aizen cut down about 10 captain class shinigami in one short fight(in KT just before he started transforming and Isshin arrived). He didn't use any of his sword techniques.

    So my main question here is why the hell is Hitsugaya making such a big deal over starting training from the start when he can still fight using Hakuda, Hohō and Kidō. If you ask me, he should be practicing those techniques, because when he did have his bankai, he was always swinging around his sword. He can still do that, so why not focus on the other areas?

    When in doubt, follow the Kenpachi model. "Doesn't take anything fancy to cut down people, just raw power".

  2. #42
    Senior Member SquadZero's Avatar
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    I dunno, it seems to me that a great deal of a shinigami's power is based upon one's bankai, with very rare exceptions. It isn't for nothing that it is pretty much a prerequisite to becoming a captain. Think about it, besides those very few exceptions(Aizen, Kenpachi, Yamamoto, special cases like the Vaizards, etc), think of one shinigami that is totally rape mode without a bankai? You can talk about raw power all you want, but the vast majority of shinigami take their "raw power" and funnel that into their bankai. It's like the chicken and the egg, is a shinigami insanely strong because of his bankai or does one's bankai make them insanely strong? I don't really think it matters either way because whichever it is, it seems that most shinigami can't access that level of power without the aid of a bankai anyway. So for all intents and purposes, a captain without a bankai is really just at the VC level. And yes, i am including kido, sword forms, and all that stuff in there, because really, without bankai level power, you aren't gonna do much against enemies like the strenrittner. Just look at what happened to Rukia in the last fight, who is supposedly adept in kido(which really hasn't been shown, only referenced to).

  3. #43
    Senior Member Anticrobotic's Avatar
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    Oh no, let's not talk about kidou guys. After all KT has retconned it out of existence (primarily thinking of Byakuya's fight here).

  4. #44
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    From what I understood, from the fact that Hitsugaya tried to spoke to his Zan Spirit and it didn't answer, that by calling the Names and Bankai, they transfer the spirit into Asauchi, which transforms into their specialized weapons. This means that they can no longer use Shikai, since Shikai (partial release) is a part of the Bankai (full release).

    Normal Shinigami can grow in 4 styles:
    1) Demon Magic - there once was a special Kidou Corps that specialized only in Magic, of which the leader - likely at a captain level - was Tessei (he can wrap time-space without the use of Hollow powers, so he is boss),
    2) Hand-to-Hand Combat - in case you are unarmed, or something happened to your weapon or simply prioritize close quarter non-weapon combat, the Assassin Corps specialize in it (though seeing as for it to be truly effective it has to be fused with Demon Magic as shown by Yoruichi and Soi Fon - quite likely, one day it will be taught on regular basis, like kidou),
    3) Swordsmanship - proved to be extremely deadly, especially for ones like Kenpachi, it is the basis of the basis,
    4) Sword Spirits - the deadliest and most variant of powers that a Shinigami can posses.

    For Vizards there is one more style:
    5) Mastery of Hollow powers.

    It seems that each Shinigami (according to Aizen) is born with a limit in each style separately and the only way to move beyond is to reach Hollow powers.


  5. #45
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    I don't know what Kubo has in mind, But he could re-equip Byakuya and Hitsugaya with Asauchi and have them start retraining with Urahara's method. This way they should be able to recreate a new Shikai for themselves, if not a new Bankai.

    Since this could go several ways, perhaps the remaining Captains, and Ichigo too, could create power transfer swords for the Captains who lost their Bankais. Byakuya and Hitsugaya with Shikais are worth more in a fight that random fodder shinigamis.

    I am not perfect and I defy you to prove otherwise
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  6. #46
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    I don't know what Kubo has in mind, But he could re-equip Byakuya and Hitsugaya with Asauchi and have them start retraining with Urahara's method. This way they should be able to recreate a new Shikai for themselves, if not a new Bankai.

    Since this could go several ways, perhaps the remaining Captains, and Ichigo too, could create power transfer swords for the Captains who lost their Bankais. Byakuya and Hitsugaya with Shikais are worth more in a fight that random fodder shinigamis.
    No, they couldn't. They no longer have the Sword Spirits and since they no longer have them, they no longer can pour them onto an Asauchi. A Shikai, is basically a fragment of the Sword Spirit (that each Shinigami have, at least to a Shikai level) poured and inserted into the Asauchi, from which it become a specialized-their own Weapon. A Bankai, is a step further, it's the WHOLE Sword Spirit poured onto the blade. That's why, when Bankai is destroyed/damaged, the whole Sword Spirit is as well and it can no longer be repaired (though it can still be reshaped/reforged from what is left of it).

    Seeing as Aizen mentioned that all Shinigami styles have an inborn limit, the Sword Spirits are likely the same (they are basically one of the core's of their inner worlds) an inborn part of the soul. The Asuachi likely only helps in shaping that core/power into a certain individual personification of it (for example Hitsugaya's reiatsu itself was emanating ice clod wind, even before he became a Shinigami. Thanks to the training and Asauchi, it became a proper Sword Spirit).


  7. #47
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    Zero,

    What do you mean by the sword's spirit? I'm saying that none of us really understands what it means. If we go simply by the statement of the afro Zero Guy who invented Zanpakutous, then "that sword spirit" is an entity born from the Shinigami's Reiatu intermingled with an Asauchi.

    This my friend is the only fact specifically stated within the Manga regarding how Zanpakutos and by extension, the Zanpakutou's spirit are formed/born. Then If This Fact is extended to its logical conclusion, I see no reason why Kubo could not do this.

    I do acknowledge that there are some instances where the Asauchi didn't seem to be a factor, and Two such instances would be Hitsugaya himself and Ichigo. Hitsugaya already had Ice powers way before he became a Shinigami, and Ichigo was flinging a Zanpakuto around without the benefit of an Aauchi

    I am not perfect and I defy you to prove otherwise
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  8. #48
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    The Zan Spirit, is a crystallization of the power a person holds, it is it's personification. The moment it disappears, the power itself disappears with it, because it is the power. All the special powers and properties a person, for example a human, has can be crystallized. Quincy do it through Spirit Particle Manipulation (using that as a medium), Hollow use their own Spirit Bodies, as a medium for those things and Shinigami do that by crystallizing a Zan Spirit and putting it in an Asauchi.

    Basically, thanks to the Asauchi they learn how to condense and create a core for their special inborn properties (for example ice wind reiatsu, or like Yamamoto's flame-heat like and the like)and then link up that core with an Asauchi which becomes a personalized weapon. A Bankai is basically putting ALL of that power, into the sword, which then the Quincy steal, thus leaving a Shinigami and Asauchi without the Power Core.

    Technically, they loose their special powers/traits, since those are fully condensed and inserted into a blade that is later taken out by a third party. As the name implies it is a full release, which means that nothing is left and if there is nothing left, then you can't build something from nothing.

    Then again, if they were to gain new power or traits, then perhaps it could become a new core, but normally those are simply inborn traits. For example, it's quite likely that Aizen manipulated Bach's time perception by simply releasing his reiatsu that likely has similar properties to his Zan, as it was shown with Hitsugaya and Yamamoto (in similar fashion, after loosing his Bankai, Yamamoto's reiatsu was no longer flame-like).


  9. #49
    The French Tickler pratesh's Avatar
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    Here's my biggest problem with the concept. A bankai is unique to each shinigami and it is achieved by their power alone. No one else can provide the power necessary to awaken it. It must be earned by the user themselves.

    If we accept that Bankai is a source of power, where does this power come from? Well quite obviously, it comes from the shinigami that pours their power into the Aasuchi and creates their sword as a base/foundation for awakening that power.

    Now with that said, its safe to say that a Bankai(consider it as being a person) and their shinigami, are linked by the same reiatsu. So, even if Bach and Co did figure out a way to "seal" the bankai, doesn't it mean that they would still not be able to use the stolen bankai? So why did bach say that he could've released Yama's bankai back on him?

    So much holes to full and only one man to do it. Urahara; thank god hes got a big (walking ) stick......My attempt at humor. Anyways hope this theft thing doesn't go out of hand.

  10. #50
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pratesh View Post
    Here's my biggest problem with the concept. A bankai is unique to each shinigami and it is achieved by their power alone. No one else can provide the power necessary to awaken it. It must be earned by the user themselves.

    If we accept that Bankai is a source of power, where does this power come from? Well quite obviously, it comes from the shinigami that pours their power into the Aasuchi and creates their sword as a base/foundation for awakening that power.

    Now with that said, its safe to say that a Bankai(consider it as being a person) and their shinigami, are linked by the same reiatsu. So, even if Bach and Co did figure out a way to "seal" the bankai, doesn't it mean that they would still not be able to use the stolen bankai? So why did bach say that he could've released Yama's bankai back on him?

    So much holes to full and only one man to do it. Urahara; thank god hes got a big (walking ) stick......My attempt at humor. Anyways hope this theft thing doesn't go out of hand.
    I'm not sure what you mean by hole. If a Zan Spirit in Bankai form is basically all of their specific trait power condensed into one being, then that means that being, that core itself is a source and production mechanism for that power. Basically, they don't steal the tool only, but a factory itself. It was already proved in the Ichigo vs Kenpachi fight, that Zan's in Shikai already produce power and reiatsu independently of Shinigami. This means that they can team up and work together (like Ichigo and his Shikai) or hinder each other (like Kenpachi and it's Shikai were weakening each other by getting in the way of each other).

    The Shinigami whose Bankai were stolen, can longer produce that power, since the core with the power plant was stolen from them. As for Quincy, they have their own ways of manifesting powers, by using spirit particles, so they have both, the source and the means to draw out that power.


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