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  1. #51
    The French Tickler pratesh's Avatar
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    Draw out power, fine, but you never saw Ishida trying anything like that . What I'm saying is no matter if the Quincies can draw out power from the bankai thats fine. But they should not be able to control that Bankai to allow the power to be released in the first place. If in a fight with a shinigami, I'd accept that they might be able to draw from a bankai because its power was being released by its rightful owner. But to claim that they are able to release the Bankai itself is just nuts.

    Sure a Bankai is a source of power, but that power comes from the Individual shinigami upon creating his sword and pouring his power into it over a period of time. So how could bach "release" that power if it isn't his. In the Kenpachi vs Ichigo match Ichigo did ask Zangetsu for help. He didn't just combine powers. So in much the same way, how will Bach convince the "Sword spirits" to release their power for him when that would mean betraying their previous owners.

    Lets consider two possibilities.One, a "sword spirit" gains its power itself or two it gains it from the shinigami that uses it. Now, if its from the shinigami, it creates the problem I mention above. Some bankai's are naturally more powerful that others. If the power comes from itself, then we need to ask ourselves, what makes one "spirit" stronger than the other. It comes down to the Shinigami(again) as the Asauchi do seem to be of a standard quality.

  2. #52
    Senior Member Dabbido's Avatar
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    Am I the only one that thinks what was shown on this chapter is basically how these will fight when Juha comes back?

    Hisagi by training and Bankai, Komamura by (wasnt explained, so Im guessing) learning his past or something, like gaining the power of the "wolf" thingy tribe XD , and Hitsugaya by becoming a badass at swordsmanship, I know it seems lame with him training with those "sucky" team members, but I imagine in the end, miraculously they will all be badasses : P

    I can see it being something cheesy along the lines of beating enemies without their powers, with their new skills. I can see it happening XD

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by pratesh View Post

    So my main question here is why the hell is Hitsugaya making such a big deal over starting training from the start when he can still fight using Hakuda, Hohō and Kidō. If you ask me, he should be practicing those techniques, because when he did have his bankai, he was always swinging around his sword. He can still do that, so why not focus on the other areas?

    When in doubt, follow the Kenpachi model. "Doesn't take anything fancy to cut down people, just raw power".
    Yeah the problem with histugaya is his kido skills aren't that high... i've never seen this kid use a level 90 kidou not even an 80 kidou......even his hand to hand combat skills aren't that good..... he always relied on bankai..... i think he was force to do so after isshin was no more... and he had to become captain... and bankai is the prime prerequisite.... he relied on it too much... even he stated that he only focus on making it a "real bankai"

    Note: Hitsugaya can never do the "kenpachi model"..... kenpachi is already a monster to begin with before he even was awakened.. there is no way hitsugaya no matter what genius he is can just do what kenpachi can in raw power, especially the current one..... according to kyoraku he(histu) could surpass him by 100 years,.... compare that to zaraki were yamamoto got wary of his power for just teaching him 1 day of kendo and got the c46 scared like kittens....... probably their difference in power currently is between a 3rd seat and a captain lols

    IMO what he did was just to raise the moral of his squad by training side by side with them and ease his and his squads mind.. they are panicking....he is panicking... its just a way a leader should do.... i really don't know what hitsugaya can do now... he could seek out kyoraku maybe,.,,, or better yet seek out his former captain for help.... since they have a closer relationship hehe

  4. #54
    Senior Member SquadZero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    From what I understood, from the fact that Hitsugaya tried to spoke to his Zan Spirit and it didn't answer, that by calling the Names and Bankai, they transfer the spirit into Asauchi, which transforms into their specialized weapons. This means that they can no longer use Shikai, since Shikai (partial release) is a part of the Bankai (full release).

    Normal Shinigami can grow in 4 styles:
    1) Demon Magic - there once was a special Kidou Corps that specialized only in Magic, of which the leader - likely at a captain level - was Tessei (he can wrap time-space without the use of Hollow powers, so he is boss),
    2) Hand-to-Hand Combat - in case you are unarmed, or something happened to your weapon or simply prioritize close quarter non-weapon combat, the Assassin Corps specialize in it (though seeing as for it to be truly effective it has to be fused with Demon Magic as shown by Yoruichi and Soi Fon - quite likely, one day it will be taught on regular basis, like kidou),
    3) Swordsmanship - proved to be extremely deadly, especially for ones like Kenpachi, it is the basis of the basis,
    4) Sword Spirits - the deadliest and most variant of powers that a Shinigami can posses.

    For Vizards there is one more style:
    5) Mastery of Hollow powers.

    It seems that each Shinigami (according to Aizen) is born with a limit in each style separately and the only way to move beyond is to reach Hollow powers.
    The 4th area of combat for shinigami is hoho, high speed movement in combat ie. shunpo. I think the "sword spirit" thing falls under swordsmanship as in bringing the powers of one's zanpakuto to bear. Though I do think that using zanpakuto abilites should be it's own area like you suggest.

  5. #55
    Senior Member Dabbido's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by my2kb22 View Post
    Yeah the problem with histugaya is his kido skills aren't that high... i've never seen this kid use a level 90 kidou not even an 80 kidou......even his hand to hand combat skills aren't that good..... he always relied on bankai..... i think he was force to do so after isshin was no more... and he had to become captain... and bankai is the prime prerequisite.... he relied on it too much... even he stated that he only focus on making it a "real bankai"

    Note: Hitsugaya can never do the "kenpachi model"..... kenpachi is already a monster to begin with before he even was awakened.. there is no way hitsugaya no matter what genius he is can just do what kenpachi can in raw power, especially the current one..... according to kyoraku he(histu) could surpass him by 100 years,.... compare that to zaraki were yamamoto got wary of his power for just teaching him 1 day of kendo and got the c46 scared like kittens....... probably their difference in power currently is between a 3rd seat and a captain lols

    IMO what he did was just to raise the moral of his squad by training side by side with them and ease his and his squads mind.. they are panicking....he is panicking... its just a way a leader should do.... i really don't know what hitsugaya can do now... he could seek out kyoraku maybe,.,,, or better yet seek out his former captain for help.... since they have a closer relationship hehe
    I agree on how he cant do the "Kenpachi model", and he hasnt even been shown to use kido (unless you count the movies, in wich he used bakudou #63 Sajou Sabaku, and filler when he used #31 Shakkaho) on his hand to hand combat, we havent ever seen him so we cant tell, but at least he seems to use his body (kicking) mixed with his swordsmanship, (see Halibel fight, he uses his legs to push her, he also used that on Gins fight ) wich seemed to be advanced. I really hope he sees Isshin, that would be a huge boost.

    Also Im gonna sound fanboyish here, but its just depressing to see him going down on the "rank", hes one of the best characters IMO, and it sucks how Kubo always seems to diminish him, Im not going unrealistic here , wanting him to be as powerful as Kenpachi or anything, but at least around Byakuya levels XD but he looses credibility every time, lets review here:

    First fight: VS Gin (he seemed superior, but Gin was obviously holding back)
    2nd: VS Aizen (Complete ownage, but thats to be expected, since he beat Ichigo with a finger)
    3rd: VS Shawlong (Again, yeah he had his limiter and whatnot, still beaten to a pulp by a puny low level arrancar?)
    4th: VS Luppi (This is about the only fight where he seems to have superior control, yet he didnt kill Luppi, and he got sent off with a tentacle attack with bankai, ON defense mode)
    5th: VS Halibel (this is his biggest feat, since its freaking 3rd espada, but if it wasnt for Hyoten Hyakkaso he wouldve lost, AND again he didnt actually kill her)
    6th: VS Aizen with Captains (In this fight, he and the others do create an awesome plan, but in the end Aizen is overpowered, and he ends up stabbing Hinamori, and losing half of his body)

    So yeah.. things arent going exactly to his favor.. XD

  6. #56
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SquadZero View Post
    The 4th area of combat for shinigami is hoho, high speed movement in combat ie. shunpo. I think the "sword spirit" thing falls under swordsmanship as in bringing the powers of one's zanpakuto to bear. Though I do think that using zanpakuto abilites should be it's own area like you suggest.
    Oh right, right, I forgot . I guess it makes some sense seeing as most Shikai are still purely bladed physical weapons, or at least can still perform a function of a normal sword.

    Still there are more techniques in the Fast Movement category other than Shunpo. Soi Fon used quick movements to create clones in the fight against Aizen. I guess that it could be said that Hoho and H-t-H Combat is a specialization of the Assassin Corps, Kidou of the Kidou Corps, and Swordsmanship of the Gotei (as it was shown that most people from Kidou and Assasin Corps do not use Swords that much).

    Still, for optimal protection, members of Gotei had to learn from each style.

    Then again, some Zanpakutou work more like Kidou or have supportive role, so categorizing their power to Swordsmanship is a little of a stretch.

    Quote Originally Posted by pratesh View Post
    Draw out power, fine, but you never saw Ishida trying anything like that . What I'm saying is no matter if the Quincies can draw out power from the bankai thats fine. But they should not be able to control that Bankai to allow the power to be released in the first place. If in a fight with a shinigami, I'd accept that they might be able to draw from a bankai because its power was being released by its rightful owner. But to claim that they are able to release the Bankai itself is just nuts.

    Sure a Bankai is a source of power, but that power comes from the Individual shinigami upon creating his sword and pouring his power into it over a period of time. So how could bach "release" that power if it isn't his. In the Kenpachi vs Ichigo match Ichigo did ask Zangetsu for help. He didn't just combine powers. So in much the same way, how will Bach convince the "Sword spirits" to release their power for him when that would mean betraying their previous owners.

    Lets consider two possibilities.One, a "sword spirit" gains its power itself or two it gains it from the shinigami that uses it. Now, if its from the shinigami, it creates the problem I mention above. Some bankai's are naturally more powerful that others. If the power comes from itself, then we need to ask ourselves, what makes one "spirit" stronger than the other. It comes down to the Shinigami(again) as the Asauchi do seem to be of a standard quality.
    The Sword Spirit, is not only a representation but a system. The Shinigami itself doesn't hold the information about powers and techniques of their swords, but the Sword Spirit itself, proven by the fact that it is the Shinigami that has to learn from the Sword and not forcing the Sword to learn new techniques. Still, there are sword techniques that doesn't necessary have to rely on the Sword Spirit, as it was shown with Getsug Tenshou, were both, Ishin and Ichigo were able to use without releasing their swords (Ishin through Asauchi and Ichigo through Fullbring short sword).

    From what I noticed, the Quincy CANNOT release Bankai (otherwise they would steal Shikai which should be easier). It's more like the moment the system was started and accessed, they freeze it and then change the person behind the keyboard. The system was already accessed, what is left is to control/use it as you like. After battle, they likely put it on hibernation only to start again from the moment it previously stopped working.

    Let's not forget, a Bankai is different from Shikai. A Shikai is basically a partial release. In order to have access to more power, the user needs to draw out that power. While Bankai, a full release, is different, it constantly release a great amounts of power. Not to mention, that the minimum amount of power released is outside of the user's control and thus can be dangerous to the user as well as to those around him. A great example of it (Ichigo vs Byakuya final fight) is how Ichigo's own Bankai's reiatsu crushed him, drastically reducing his power, speed, technique and overall combat capabilities. In similar manner, the Soul Society would have been burned to crisp, because Yamamoto's Bankai minimum output is already outside his control.

    A Banki is the strongest and most dangerous weapon a Shinigami can have. The user can only make it stronger (be giving it more power than it already has), but if the user is too weak, that user himself, or even people around will perish. That's why those that have achieved "True" Bankai, rarely use it (even at Fake Karakura Arc, one of Hitsugaya's Bankai techniques was so powerful that it would likely kill most people around, if it was used at the beginning when he was in top shape - Kyouraku even mentions that in a hundred years it will be stronger than his, although it's not known if he knew that it wasn't at it's full power at the time). There are also Shinigami, like Ishin, whose Bankai is likely so powerful, that if they aren't in top shape, they can't invoke it, or will die from invoking it (although it's really hard to say since we still don't know that much about it).

    In other words, a Bankai, can be stronger than the Shinigami to which it belongs (that's why Vice Captains, even after obtaining bankai, have to still train at least for another decade to master it or something like that - was mentioned by Byakuya in SS arc IIRC). The Quincy as well have to be vary of that fact, that's why Bach mentions that only he would be able to wield Yamamoto's Bankai.

    A Zan Spirit is often (if not always, really hard to say ) a personification and system of the initial power that a person is born which. It is power and as all powers have in common, it might consume the user. For example, Hitsugaya's power was basically slowly killing his Grandmother. That's why one first needs to train himself, to be able to wield that power (that's the reason why Hitsugaya even joined the Gotei, I guess the situation with Ichigo and Hichigo is also quite similar).

    An Asauchi is a template sword, that Shinigami use as a base, to create their own personal Zanpakutou, from the power they posses.

    It's possible that a certain level of power has to be reached first, in order for that power to properly manifest itself as a Sword Spirit.



  7. #57
    The French Tickler pratesh's Avatar
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    Yeah, but where does the Spirit come from? My only argument is that the Asauchi seem like a standardised product, so overall, even if the spirit becomes seperated from the Shinigami after the sword takes shape, Initially it was part of the Shinigami.

  8. #58
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pratesh View Post
    Yeah, but where does the Spirit come from? My only argument is that the Asauchi seem like a standardised product, so overall, even if the spirit becomes seperated from the Shinigami after the sword takes shape, Initially it was part of the Shinigami.
    Technically, the Spirit should be born within the Shinigami. It is unknown why, how or at what point it happens, but it seems that this is how it is for all Shinigami. It's quite likely that another manifestation of it is the "Threads" of the Shinigami. Their "Threads" are of different color (normal have white, even Ichigo and Uryu had white ones before, quite likely the same applies to hollows) to show that they are special, different for normal Spirits and that they are the "Balancers" (it's quite likely that the term Shinigami was created by humans or even Quincy).

    How does one obtain a "Red Threads" in the first place ? Some might have been born with it, but most didn't, seeing as some Humans can become Shinigami. Then what is that "Red", is it connected to their Sword Spirits, if so, is that also connected to the Soul King ? Is Soul King the one that awards one with a "Red Threads" along with "Sword Spirit" ? It's really hard to say, but seeing as Shinigami Schools didn't exist before Seireitei, they had to be somehow chosen in another way.

    Of course, seeing as only those with above average spiritual power can enter the Shinigami School, might itself be a prove that one is chosen. Still, basing on how it was with Ichigo, it's likely that there was a "First" Shinigami, that shared a portion of it's power with another person (sounds awfully familiar and not only for Shinigami...). It's also possible that each person that completes a certain level of study also goes through something similar.



  9. #59
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    The Zanpakuto ("Spirit") is a being comprised from the Mental Energy of the shinigami, or a maybe even portion of his soul. The Zanpakutou "Spirit" is completely immersed in and is in perfect synchronicity with the Shinigami's reiatsu. Inside the sword, an Asauchi serves as a "Blank" for the shinigami's mental energy to use to mature into a complete personality. It does appear that In Ichigo and Hitsugaya's cases, their spirits are so strong that they are able to form complete personalities without the need for an Asauchi blank or to immediately reformat the blank, just as Ichigo did.

    Time in a Zapakuto's inner world might flow differently than in the outer world, unless the shinigami is currently present in there. I any case, the Zanpakuto has enough time and enough space to test it's powers and discover itself, and then to later teach what it knows to the Shinigami.

    I am not perfect and I defy you to prove otherwise
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  10. #60
    Senior Member King Of Soul Society's Avatar
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    @zero @pratesh ii think you are forgetting that the quincy can use the stolen bankai

    He Who Speaks Without An Attentive Ear Is Mute.

    Originally Posted by halaros536
    shut up you weakling!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! you are just angry because i didnt let you became my SERVANT!!!!!! but icould not accept that because you are too weak to be my servant sorry

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