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  1. #31
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anticrobotic View Post
    I doubt that the 13th squad would be unable to find itself a vice captain for 20 years.
    Not quite. IIRC, Ukitake left that spot all along for Rukia after Kaien's death, but Rukia would not accept (believing that it was her fault) and her brother wouldn't agree at that time, but the situation have changed after the time-skip. Rukia already had a Shikai when Kaien was alive, but after his death she stopped moving forward, or perhaps even her power went down, since she subconsciously wanted to get rid of it (how fortunate for her subconsciouses that she bumped into H-cube).


  2. #32
    The French Tickler pratesh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    Not quite. IIRC, Ukitake left that spot all along for Rukia after Kaien's death, but Rukia would not accept (believing that it was her fault) and her brother wouldn't agree at that time, but the situation have changed after the time-skip. Rukia already had a Shikai when Kaien was alive, but after his death she stopped moving forward, or perhaps even her power went down, since she subconsciously wanted to get rid of it (how fortunate for her subconsciouses that she bumped into H-cube).
    Seems about right, and I believe Kiyone Kotetsu and Sentaro Kotsubaki both put in extra in order to compensate for the lack of a lieutenant.

    187422-kiyone_kotetsu_and_sentarou_kotsubaki.jpg

  3. #33
    Senior Member Anticrobotic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    Not quite. IIRC, Ukitake left that spot all along for Rukia after Kaien's death, but Rukia would not accept (believing that it was her fault) and her brother wouldn't agree at that time, but the situation have changed after the time-skip. Rukia already had a Shikai when Kaien was alive, but after his death she stopped moving forward, or perhaps even her power went down, since she subconsciously wanted to get rid of it (how fortunate for her subconsciouses that she bumped into H-cube).
    Is that so? Ok, I had missed that part about Ukitake reserving the spot for her. But wouldn't that clash with Byakuya forbidding everyone to hold a seat in any of the squads?

    In any case that means my old hypothesis about Ichigo being Kaien reborn, and Orihime being Kaien's wife reborn, might hold after all.

  4. #34
    Que gatito mas leeendo!!! hikonami's Avatar
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    but, shouldnt ishin have gone missing before kaien's death???? rukia lived with ishin and never recognize him.....she's very bright. she should have known all the captains.....
    Miau, Miau, Miau.....prrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!!!!

  5. #35
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hikonami View Post
    but, shouldnt ishin have gone missing before kaien's death???? rukia lived with ishin and never recognize him.....she's very bright. she should have known all the captains.....
    Then I guess at the time that Ishin was a captain, Rukia and Renji were still in the academy. The time flows differently in both worlds from what I remember. This would also mean that Hitsugay and Hinamori are way older than Renji and Rukia (which are over 50 years old from what I remember).

    Though Gin, Touse and Aizen are already Captains in this flashback.

    The other possibility is that Ishin was a captain only a short while and indifference to Aizen that was going around showcasing his shikai (we now know why), Ishin was sleeping at the barracks of the 10th division and was rarely seen. Normally an unseated members of other division rarely meet with Captain from other divisions. It's possible that at that time Rukia only knew that someone also from the Shiba clan was a captain of the 10th division.

    You have also to wonder for how long was the captain seat open, seeing as the next captain was Hitsugaya, which was only getting close to bankai.

    What's bothering me is also the fact that Ishin's Shinigami clothes are different from the ones he had in this flashback. His clothes when entering the body/shell, were intact. So, his words that he regained powers only after 20 years in the moment that Grandfisher attacked KON seems false, unless he somehow changed them in his inner world, otherwise there is something fishy here.


    BTW. I noticed that when the Zansmith was talking about the fact that he can sense every Zanpakutou, even within the Zero Division, the Monk himself was missing from the picture:
    Spoiler!

    This might imply that he doesn't use Zanpakutou at all.

    Also, in this mangastream version page, what Rangiku says is quite interesting:
    Spoiler!

    She says that Ishin is NOT from a lesser branch and that if he, as the Head of the Shiba Clan, will act like that, it will damage the Main Branch (basically she says, in a roundabout way, that Ishin is from and the head of the Main Branch). In other words it was Ishin's defection that truly have diminished the Shiba clan from the noble clans, just as Rangiku warned him that his actions might lead to the downfall of the clan.

    This also makes more probable that FGT is the White Emperor of the Shiba clan, since the only ones of the Shiba clan that used GT and knew FGT are Ishin (that once was the clan head) and Ichigo (his son).

    This means that Kaien became the head after Ishin disappeared and after Kaien's death, Kukaku became the clan head. Since Ishin disappeared without any notice, he didn't pass the FGT to any of the other members of the clan. Unless Kaien was never the clan head (I really don't remember about that ), but if Kaine truly was a Clan Head at some point, then this means that he died after Ishin disappeared, or that Ishin become the clan head after Kain and when Ishin disappeared the title was left for Kukaku (but seeing the place to where Rukia brought Kaien's body, the first option is more probable).


  6. #36
    Senior Member SquadZero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    Also, in this mangastream version page, what Rangiku says is quite interesting:
    Spoiler!

    She says that Ishin is NOT from a lesser branch and that if he, as the Head of the Shiba Clan, will act like that, it will damage the Main Branch (basically she says, in a roundabout way, that Ishin is from and the head of the Main Branch). In other words it was Ishin's defection that truly have diminished the Shiba clan from the noble clans, just as Rangiku warned him that his actions might lead to the downfall of the clan.

    This also makes more probable that FGT is the White Emperor of the Shiba clan, since the only ones of the Shiba clan that used GT and knew FGT are Ishin (that once was the clan head) and Ichigo (his son).

    This means that Kaien became the head after Ishin disappeared and after Kaien's death, Kukaku became the clan head. Since Ishin disappeared without any notice, he didn't pass the FGT to any of the other members of the clan. Unless Kaien was never the clan head (I really don't remember about that ), but if Kaine truly was a Clan Head at some point, then this means that he died after Ishin disappeared, or that Ishin become the clan head after Kain and when Ishin disappeared the title was left for Kukaku (but seeing the place to where Rukia brought Kaien's body, the first option is more probable).
    Actually, she is saying that Isshin IS from a lesser branch of the Shiba clan but yet somehow he is ALSO the current head of the Shiba clan. It would be interesting if we could find out all the details behind this, and hopefully somewhere either Kukkaku or Isshin can shed some light on exactly what the circumstances were that lead to the downfall of the Shiba clan. But I do agree that it seems likely that Kaien became the head of the clan after Isshin went AWOL. Perhaps the fact that two clan heads in a row disappeared/presumed dead fighting hollows lead to the downfall of the clan, especially if it were perceived(by the other noble clans) that there were no one of consequence to take over. No current shinigami in the clan would probably have been a real hard blow for such a noble clan.

  7. #37
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SquadZero View Post
    Actually, she is saying that Isshin IS from a lesser branch of the Shiba clan but yet somehow he is ALSO the current head of the Shiba clan. It would be interesting if we could find out all the details behind this, and hopefully somewhere either Kukkaku or Isshin can shed some light on exactly what the circumstances were that lead to the downfall of the Shiba clan. But I do agree that it seems likely that Kaien became the head of the clan after Isshin went AWOL. Perhaps the fact that two clan heads in a row disappeared/presumed dead fighting hollows lead to the downfall of the clan, especially if it were perceived(by the other noble clans) that there were no one of consequence to take over. No current shinigami in the clan would probably have been a real hard blow for such a noble clan.
    In the mangastream and mangareader version, Rangiku states that Ishin is the Head of the Shiba clan, but the two versions differ about Ishin belonging or not belonging to the lesser branch. Usually the Mangastream version has better translations, so this would suggest that Ishin is from the main branch, thus him disappearing (a main member of the family and a head at that) would certainly diminish the status of a family if the next head was from a branch family and only a branch family remained.

    Then again, it would also make sense if Ishin was from a lesser branch, while his (twin?)brother/sister where from the main branch, similar how it was with the twins from Hyuga clan in Naruto, where one becomes the head while the other become the branch family. Ishin quite likely is an uncle of Kaien/Ganju/Kukaku, since the aforementioned uncle would be unpleased with sending Ichigo to the Royal Palace, since then he would need to learn about his past (just like now).

    That is all assuming that Ishin wasn't married into the Shiba family, like with Masaki and the like. Having a twin would certainly explain why Kaien and Ichigo look like close (almost twin) brothers. It's also possible that Karin might end up looking very similar to Kukaku when she grows up.

    Then again, it's also possible that Ishin is Kaien's father, but an uncle to Kukaku and Ganju (basically the 3 of them have the same mother but not father in this case).
    Last edited by Zero; 05-14-2013 at 01:39 PM.


  8. #38
    Senior Member SquadZero's Avatar
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    I dunno, by the wording of what that mangastream version says, it seems to me that the "not" there is a typo. It reads like its supposed to say, "I know you're from a lesser branch, but if the head of the Shiba clan continues to act in this manner you'll do irreparable damage to the main branch!" It makes much more sense like this.

    But anyway, I do like the idea of Isshin having a twin brother. It would serve to answer a bunch of questions for us... as well as bringing up some new interesting ones.

  9. #39
    Que gatito mas leeendo!!! hikonami's Avatar
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    i think ishin could be the eldest brother and then kaien, shukaku and ganjou......., maybe yoruiche informed shukaku about who ichigo is and that's why he agreed on helping him......
    Miau, Miau, Miau.....prrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!!!!

  10. #40
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    ^ I think that there would have been some mention that they had yet another brother... especially one that mysteriously disappeared (beside there is a mention of an Unlce that has ties to Ichigo in the recent training arc). Then again, knowing Aizen he might have pulled his Illusionary Zan and framed, then executed illusionary covered up agent, in order to cover Ishin's tracks so that he could observe him and the Quincy with easy and relax, without anyone bothering to search for him.

    Still, if Ishin was the Head as branch member, then does it mean that the main branch died out ? I mean if the Kaien/Ganju/Kukaku are the main branch (they have symbols and tattoos of the Shiba clan all over them, indifference to Ishin, so I think that they are the Main branch), then why was Ishin, a branch member, chosen as the head ? Kukaku is supposedly on Yoruichi's level (so she is pretty captain-level anyway), Kaien was a Shinigami already at TBTP arc, so it's not like they didn't have any other choices for a Shinigami Shiba.

    One of the explanations I can think of, is that Ishin was specifically chosen by the previous head that have likely died... which quite likely was the aforementioned 10th Division Captain that died right before the TBTP arc. Ah yes, this would explain why Kaien said to Ukitake that he is not cut to be a captain, so that Ishin would have been chosen ?

    Hmmmm, then wait a moment again, if Ishin's brother was the previous head and captain of the 10th Division, could it mean that he also could have been the Shinigami from whom they made Hichigo :O. Oh, this would also explain why Ichigo looks like Kaien, since in a way they had the same father :O ?


    Oh right, it's also worth mentioning that Yuzu and Karin don't have a hollow in them, since the bondage was only to Ichigo... unless, the reason why Ishin doesn't or perhaps cannot release his Shikai and Bankai, is because most of his power is still holding up the Hollows inside his daughters ?


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