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  1. #31
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    Reading Paul's and Zero's discussion/debate about MS made me think about it, when i never really gave that a good though.

    Although all Uchiha's have the potential to awaken MS, I can't believe that all of them get Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi, and ill explain my point of view.

    The MS techniques that we know for each MS:
    Sishui - Kotoamatsukami
    Itachi - Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi
    Sasuke - Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi (been passed down to him by Itachi).
    Tobi/Kakashi - Both eyes have space-time tecnhiques, although on diferent levels, but both are Kamui's.
    Madara - ???

    So, every Uchiha has diferent MS techs, the exception beeing Itachi and Sasuke, but the second was gifted the first's techs.
    Not only that but every Uchiha has a diferent MS eye pattern, if they were to have the exact same techniques, diferent eye patterns wouldn't be necessary or even logical to be "invented", only a general pattern like the normal sharigan with tomoes, witch makes logic to the fact that diferent MS eyes have different techs.

    Witch doesnt mean that Susanoo can't be reached, i would guess that Susanoo is more likely reached by a certain power level than MS techs in both eyes, since we have read and see that the more the user gets stronger, the more "evolved" or complete the Susanoo gets.

    Also, a side note to the reference on Harashirama's arm looking burned, it doesnt really implie amaterasu, because all uchiha's have an afinity to Katon, so even "regular" fire techs performed by a strong opponent would be great counters to mokuton.

  2. #32
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    ^ Technically, Itachi passed the information about his techniques (MS and those that he copied), but since Sasuke himself isn't able to use most of them, only a few are worth mentioning.

    There is a notion that some eyes seems to have specifications, for example (without counting the supreme universal jutsu - Susanoo):
    - Itachi - Nin-Gen type, one of his eyes could cast an MS genjutsu (Tsukuyomi), while the other MS ninjutsu (Amaterasu);
    - Sasuke - Nin type, both of his jutsu can cast a ninjutsu (Amaterasu and Kagetsuchi);
    - Shisui - Gen type, he has Kotoamatsukami while his other eye was able of casting powerful unnamed MS genjutsu, or the same one as well;
    - Obito - Nin type, both of his eyes cast a similar or the same space time ninjutsu;
    - Izuna - unknown, I was hoping that this flashback would shed some light about his techniques and powers,
    - Madara - unknown, all we know is that he can use Susanoo, but looking at it's Complete weapons, it might be Taijutsu based.

    The Complete (beyond adult form) Susanoo itself often represents other MS jutsu, like Amaterasu being the source of the Strongest Shield (as can be noticed in both Sasuke's and Itachi's complete forms), Tsukuyomi the Gourd Illusion Sword, Kagetsuchi the Shape Shifting Black Ball. While Madara's Complete Susano, posses two swords of extreme raw power, which suggest his eyes might specialize in Taijutsu.

    All the jutsu that can be used with a normal Sharingan, can also be used with MS and EMS, they are simply more effective then. You could say that the technique is the same, but one of the blades is simply sharper, of course the skill in using it is still important.

    It's worth mentioning that Rinnegan can use Susanoo, though the fact that Obito didn't transplant his MS eye, for a technically more powerful Rinnegan, might mean that other MS jutsu are unusable for Rinnegan. This likely means that Susanoo is actually one of the abilities that Sharingan have retained from Rinnegan (there are other examples as well). The diversification from the Rinnegan and certain characteristics within certain individuals is what give each MS-users a separate set of special jutsu that only they can use (a Kekkei Genkai within a Kekkei Genkai so to speak). Of course, since it is still blood based, people of extremely close blood relationship, like brothers, might end up with similar set of special jutsu (in this case, Sasuke and Itachi both gained Amaterasu). For someone to have exactly the same MS jutsu, would suggest identical DNA, like twins and the like (kukukuku).

    There is one more possibility, that the MS jutsu are generation based. For example, every Uchiha can potentially achieve Susanoo, seeing as it likely comes from the first generation Rinnegan. This would mean that Madara and Izuna, as the first MS jutsu might have at best gained one additional jutsu. The same could have been said about Shisui and Obito, who are also the first or second generation of MS users (assuming that they are not directly related from a straight line to Madara or Izuna and that their ancestors didn't had an MS would make them first). In this case Sasuke and Itachi are the newest generation, they have gained 3 jutsu, which would mean that one of their ancestors have awakened an MS ability, the Amaterasu, since both of them gained it, while both of them have formed yet another new jutsu for themselves (not counting Susanoo which in this case came from So6p, or the Older Brother).



  3. #33
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    If there's one thing I've learnt about Kishimoto, it's that he won't hesitate to Re-Write the Script if it pleases him. We can't really go by previously held notions inside the Manga or the Data books either. With this in mind I accept that Susanoo may be the only common jutsu of MS. However, I have to say that it's odd that Madara had never even tried any other MS jutsu in the fights with Hashirama that we've seen so far. Even Obito who's speciality was Spac-time jutsu, also used Genjutsu to get info out of enemies, Kakashi too cast Genjutsu, it is just odd that Madara did not use any other Sharingan tools against Hashirama as far as we have seen.

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  4. #34
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    Just to add a little more vagueness to the distribution of MS abilities, I believe they represent a physical extension of the user's mental/spiritual energies. This means that the user's own personality and mental state will transform the eye, and grant techniques representative of that personality. It's hard to distinguish between this being an actual rule/tool to understand the Sharingan, or whether it's simply something Kishi does to differentiate his characters and give them a unique style. However, I believe it is applicable.

    The fact that Obito developed an ability to remove himself from reality and/or remove reality from its present dimension fits squarely with the circumstances (and his mental state) when he awakened the MS.

    Likewise, Itachi's Tsukuyomi controls one's perception of reality, which was always Itachi's forte. He had the greatest insight into his clan's position and destiny, and always lived a life seeing the illusions behind the illusions (inb4 Inception joke).

    Sasuke, unlike Itachi, is a destroyer first and foremost. Itachi wielded his Amaterasu because, as the only one who could comprehend the entire situation, he needed the strength to act as a guardian and purge certain elements to save the greater whole (culling, in a sense). Sasuke, on the other hand, is the true master of Amaterasu. He was always more of a Ninjutsu type than a Genjutsu type (so that's a strong reason for Sasuke specializing in Amaterasu while Itachi specializes in Tsukuyomi), but Sasuke's personality, especially when awakening the MS, is another reason why his eyes chose to emphasize the offensive technique.

    Madara is more of a mystery... he was motivated by his power to protect the clan and destroy its enemies. His powers could be defensive or offensive, but I doubt they would be as specialized as Itachi's or Obito's, as those characters had extremely dominant character traits that manifested themselves in their eyes. We don't know specifically when/why Madara awakened his MS. We haven't seen anything special from his Susano'o, aside from his being the first complete version shown. Maybe he's actually exceptional at manipulating it; perhaps his power to arm the Kyuubi with it represents his desire to arm/protect his clan. I think this might be a stretch, since I can definitely see Sasuke doing the same (watching Madara, I felt like it was a preview for Sasuke tag-teaming with Naruto's Bijuu Mode).

    One more thing: Doesn't the word Tsukuyomi have something to do with the moon? I feel like that could be a reason why Mugen Tsukuyomi (which literally involves the moon) could be distinct from Itachi's version.

  5. #35
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    It's hard to believe that Madara has no additional MS techniques. I think there has to be something, but if he doesn't then it would make sense why he desired the Rinnengan.

    Something else that occurred to me is that, why didn't Madara seal the Kyuubi inside himself? If he was after power anyways.

  6. #36
    Yesss... Rlinfamous's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mo916 View Post
    It's hard to believe that Madara has no additional MS techniques. I think there has to be something, but if he doesn't then it would make sense why he desired the Rinnengan.

    Something else that occurred to me is that, why didn't Madara seal the Kyuubi inside himself? If he was after power anyways.
    It's possible a Senju/Uzumaki was needed simply to house the Kyuubi, since Konoha always relied on Uzumaki to act as Jinchuuriki. Also, Madara had no way of knowing if he could successfully use the Kyuubi's power as a Jinchuuriki, since no method has been shown to work except befriending the Bijuu; I'm not even sure how he plans to control the Juubi, aside from the fact that the Juubi might not have a mind in the same sense that other Bijuu do if a mind is a gift from the Rikudou).

  7. #37
    Senior Member Inderos's Avatar
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    Perhaps we are looking past the obvious and it's Tsukiyomi that Madara uses to control the Kyuubi?

  8. #38
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    These debates seem to go in circles You need Tsukyomi and Amaterasu to awaken Susanoo. Madara has both he just doesn't spam Amaterasu because it's not his style. He obviously has Tsukiyomi or he would not talk of casting the jutsu on the moon as his ultimate goal.


    I have mentioned it before but a shinobi's fighting style is their signature and spamming those jutsu would make Madara more like Itachi & Sasuke. Kishi wants Madara to have his own unique style so is careful not to have him spam Amaterasu or Shinra Tensei etc.

    Just as Sasuke has Tsukiyomi but doesn't spam it because hes not really a Genjutsu type like Itachi and that's not his style.



    We know Madara said it took a long time for his injuries from this battle to heal. Cultivating Hashirama's cells must have taken years. How he avoided death may have simply been that Hashrima's death blow may not has been as fatal as it looks. The injury may have still been critical but not fatal perhaps he only grazed his vital spot . Madara may have lost consciousness but awoke later.


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  9. #39
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    ^ Well, Nartuto did survive with a hole in his chest (it was closed up a few seconds later ), so have Neji (it took some time), so a sword through your chest doesn't seem so impossible to survive right now.

    No, Sasuke mentioned that after acquiring both powers that his eyes have kept (Amaterasu and Kagetsuchi), he awakened the Susanoo. While Tobi said that it's rare for one to awaken Susanoo. That's all, there is no other mention as to requirements of awakening Susanoo. From this, we can conclude that Susanoo is the ultimate MS jutsu that one can awaken, but before awakening, the user needs to obtain all other powers within his eyes. This would mean that if Madara had no other powers, then he would awaken Susanoo first and last.

    Of course, seeing as Madara is the one that mentions that a pair of Sharingans works better when used at the same time/together, likely suggests that both eyes are needed for Susanoo (perhaps with each of them awakening it's special powers).

    Sasuke can't use Tsukuyomi, it was shown in the Danzou fight as well as that with Kabuto. There are occasion were it is mentioned that if Sasuke were able to use a better Genjutsu, he would have won the fight, or occasions were Itachi deems necessary to use Tsukuyomi, while Sasuke doesn't use it likely because he can't.



  10. #40
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    Still pretty confident in my theory that Madara survived using Muu's splitting technique, which he'd copied with the Sharingan. The other half of Madara is what Hashirama noticed when he looked up at the cliff after the Madara in front of him fell.

    Madara spent his time after leaving the village acquiring new powers, hence stating in his final battle with Hashirama that he was no longer the same foe Hashirama had known. The most significant power-up was controlling Kurama, but I think he also gained new jutsu.

    And why didn't Hashirama or someone transplant Madara's eyes after killing him? It'd be a major curveball if Kishi lets Hashirama join the battlefield and it turns out that, just as Madara transplanted Hashirama's cells after their battle, Hashirama transplanted Madara's eyes, and it was a Rinnegan vs Rinnegan clash. I know you're not supposed to be able to power-down transplanted eyes, and Hashirama doesn't seem the type to steal the eyes of the friend he'd just killed... but it WOULD be epic.

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