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  1. #21
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    Hey guys, I just thought of this amazing idea, instead of Madara using some technique himself, what if Kakuzu found him and helped heal him?

    I say this because, he lived at a time where he had a mission to assassinate the first hokage, but he failed, so he went back to his village and killed the elders and learned his secret techniques. He must carry a great hatred towards Hashirama, and may have wanted to help Madara because they shared a common enemy.

    Also I remember that Kakuzu stitched back Hidan's head, so perhaps he has good healing techniques to use on mortals? Wat do you think?

  2. #22
    watchmen milystic's Avatar
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    maybe at this point madara already had some sort of zetsu made. if madara and hashi were as close as it seemed it wouldnt have been hard to gather some DNA. maybe this was the first prototype of sorts? a bit of a stretch i know...

  3. #23
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mo916 View Post
    Hey guys, I just thought of this amazing idea, instead of Madara using some technique himself, what if Kakuzu found him and helped heal him?

    I say this because, he lived at a time where he had a mission to assassinate the first hokage, but he failed, so he went back to his village and killed the elders and learned his secret techniques. He must carry a great hatred towards Hashirama, and may have wanted to help Madara because they shared a common enemy.

    Also I remember that Kakuzu stitched back Hidan's head, so perhaps he has good healing techniques to use on mortals? Wat do you think?
    I don't think so, I mean Hidan could live as a severed head, for I guess as long as he had energy, so he was somewhat half-immortal ? It's not like Kakuzu could connect nerves with those stitches, I think. I think that Daider made his new arm from the clay that he made bombs and was manipulating it similarly. It's not like those mouths on his chest or hands were natural as well.

    Beside, Kakuzu was all about money (he lost trust in humans after the village betrayed him for failing his mission or something like that IIRC), rather he would take Madara's head and pretend that he was the one that captured that S-rank criminal. His eyes itself would have been worth a billion or two.


    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    Wow, Zero that's stretching it..a lot.

    Just because Madara had not used Tsukuyomi does not say he doesn't have it, and Obito will be using Madara's Eyes which posses his EMS and the Rinnegan for the Eternal Tsukuyomi.

    To say it is not Tsukuyomi even when it is name Infinite tsukuyomi, is far less likely to be the case than for Infinite Tsukyomi being an Infinite Version of the regular Tsukuyomi.
    Not really, the jutsu were named similarly for different reasons anyway. It was mentioned that Itachi's Tsukuyomi is the only jutsu that can manipulate the perception of time. There is simply no need for Madara's illusion to have that, since it is supposedly meant to remain active for eternity.

    Mugen Tsukuyomi derives it's name from the fact that it uses the moon like a mirror, thus referring to the Moon Goddess who often holds one as well. The infinity in the name is for the fact that it is meant to be active for eternity, or at least until the end of the world.

    The reason Itachi named the jutsu Tsukuyomi, is likely not important . It just might be that he named it in accordance with his other jutsu, Amaterasu, which it's name obviously fitting the jutsu. I mean sure, Sharingan is sometimes called the Mirror Eye, so you can connect dots there, but it probably doesn't have as much meaning as the Mugen Tsukuyomi.

    Madara himself doesn't really look like a genjutsu type, so having an MS genjutus would be quite strange (Shisui was a genjutsu type, while Itachi was gen-ninjutsu type). There is no mention if Madara even have other MS jutus. There are few examples of Uchiha that had one MS jutsu and since Madara was extraordinary gifted in spiritual department, he might have automatically awakened only Susanoo.

    Tobi mentions that it is rare for one to awaken Susanoo, but he doesn't state that everyone needs to have other jutsu to activate it. It seems like 2 other jutsu were needed for Sasuke and perhaps for Itachi, but that doesn't really means that it's like that for everyone as well. It might even be that Sasuke could use it from the beginning, he might have just realized it later on that he can, after exploring his powers. Of course, it does seem that the other MS jutsu complete the Susano beyond the Adult from, but in that case, it just might mean that Madara has no other jutsu, since his Complete Susanoo's spiritual swords don't seem to have anything special beside raw power.


  4. #24
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    I don't know Zero,

    I have a theory that all Uchiha who have MS are going to have Susanoo, Amaterasu, and Tsukuyomi. Tobi's MS has only shown Kamui, but that could an added extra or it could be a consequence of the eye missing its Twin.

    Now on to what you said about Itachi. True Itachi's Tsukuyomi could manipulate the perception of time (Not Time Itself) of the victim, However Itachi did not use time manipulation everytime he invoked Tsukuyomi. He for example did not invoke time manipulation when he and Sasuke used Mutual Genjutsu to break out of the Tayuya's Sound flute genjutsu that they were hit with while fighting Kabuto.

    So here are the main points.

    1) Itachi's Tsukuyomi could manipulate time perception only when Itachi chose to do so, but it does not necessarily have to manipulate time perception everytime it is invoked. (Incidentally, Time perception manipulation may be a handy ability to have if you plan to genjutsu the whole world).

    2) For Tobi and Madara to Name their technique Infinite Tsukuyomi would be excessively redundant if it were not related to Tsukuyomi. They could have called it Infinite Genjutsu instead. The fact that the word Tsukuyomi was used instead of genjutsu strongly suggests that the technique is a version of Tsukuyomi.

    3) Since we don't know everything about MS powers, I agree that it may be possible to acquire Susanoo without other MS abilities. However the reference to Infinte Tsukuyomi suggests Madara had Tsukuyomi.

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  5. #25
    Senior Member janfeae's Avatar
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    ^^^ There is also Shisui and his Koto Amatsukami. I remember Zero once said that he believed Amatserasu was Itachi and Sasuke's only, and I think he may be right. Different MS users seem to have one unique ability.

  6. #26
    Konjiki Ashisogi Jizō Daemon Spade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoru View Post
    Good guess! If the techniqe could be copied it would make sense! Madara fell to the ground smiling so he must have had some hope his plan would be accomplished, it wasn't the death of someone losing all he wanted. The real madara dies while his split self survived as a shell of his former self and lived until aging completely.
    I wouldnt even be mad if this was the case.
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  7. #27
    Senior Member Maximo's Avatar
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    I think the only clue about how Madara survived the last stand against Hashirama is the body. If it was an Izanagi then not only would the death body disappear but the user would loose one sharingan in the process. Neither happened so its safe to say that it wasnt Izanagi. In fact, it couldnt been any other type of genjutsu either bcs the body did not disappear.

    As it was stated, it could have been a splitting-body technique. When Hashirama was taming Kyuubi Madara had perfect opportunity to split himself into 2 bodies, that would be one guess. However, it seems like there was a large portion of battle cut out from the moment when Hashirama landed before Madara bcs at that time theyre armores were in tact and then suddenly they were all torn up.

    It also seems that Kishimoto is planning to keep Madaras MS jutsus a "question mark" for the time being. He could have shown something else beside Susanoo in these flashbacks, which is very strange that he didnt. Now we do not know if he had the same "set" as Itachi/Sasuke or a different type like Obito. I think Tsukyiomi and Susanoo are a given, but then there should be 2 other. Maybe one of those MS jutsus has something to do with how he survived. Anyhow, Im pretty sure he doesnt have Amaterasu bcs it would be a very powerfull weapon against Hashiramas wooden jutsus.
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  8. #28
    Senior Member Temperjoke's Avatar
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    The weird thing is, Madara's body is laying in a different position in Hashirama's flashback, than it was previously shown. I can't find the chapter and page right now, but before Madara was kneeling, impaled with a number of weapons. I wonder why there is a difference?

    As for obtaining Hashirama's cells, well, that could have been done at any point, after all, they're using bladed weapons, and it looks like Hashirama has several cuts/gashes.

    There are a couple of things I'm wondering though. Supposedly, the Kyuubi was sealed inside Mito Uzimake during this fight, but we haven't seen her. http://www.mangapanda.com/93-54942-5...apter-500.html I'm also curious as to how Hashirama strippped away Susanoo from the Kyuubi during the fight.

    Damn! I just realized we didn't get any more details about Hashirama's transformation!

  9. #29
    首はねスレイマン Saiges's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    I don't know Zero,

    I have a theory that all Uchiha who have MS are going to have Susanoo, Amaterasu, and Tsukuyomi.

    I have the same thought, this is thanks to Itachi's explanation about MS activation.
    Anyway, in this chapter, the burned-like left arm of Hashirama may hint to the use of Amaterasu.
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  10. #30
    Senior Member Kenny Bones's Avatar
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    I was reading some theories about the supposed time skip in this chapter. After we see the close up on Madara's EMS and the next page shows the moon and Madara without his armor and Hashirama's left arm all torn up.
    That theory said that "it's suddenly night", because of the panel with the moon.

    But it was already night when they fought. Here, you see that page from the previous chapter 620:
    Spoiler!


    And here in this chapter:
    Spoiler!


    So it couldn't have been a very long time skip. But something did happen between those two panels. The kyubi is not there as well either, so Mito must have sealed away the nine tails during this time. I'm sure we'll see how Madara lost his armor and why Hashirama's arm is so torn up.

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