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  1. #61
    After this chapter, where does Ohnoki's flashback fit in? It seems the leaf didn't have forehead protectors with the village symbol at the time Madara left, and if I remember correctly, Madara was wearing a leaf forehead protector during his quick scuffle with Muu and Ohnoki.

  2. #62
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thebulk View Post
    Thing is zero, I find a lot of your arguments and ideas based on heavy assumption. Aka Tobirama suspecting that the Uchiha would eventually rebel is one thing, but to jump to the conclusion that he had already prepared a punishment for them? Not far fetched but definitely not definitive. And yes whilst Tobirama does play a significant part in pushing the Uchiha into a corner, to absolve Madara of blame is frankly really naive. I mean the way i see it madara simply used Tobirama not liking him as an excuse to go ape on the rest of the village.
    No, I'm not absolving Madara from what he did, I just say that what Madara did is because of what Tobirama (and the rest of the senju) were doing and to what would it lead eventually. Or so it seems, it's likely that the Uchiha would have a chance to survive and truly bond with the village, the moment that the 4th Hokage was chosen. This is an important event, the war was over, so there was a time of peace to bond together with each other, the leader was someone that wasn't persecuting Uchiha and his right hand (3rd Hokage) was someone that would certainly back him up in reconnecting the village with the Uchiha. This was the first time in Konoha's history that Uchiha truly had the chance, the first time that leadership of the village was more fair than it ever was.

    We have to remember that the village was first ruled by Hashirama and the rest of people like Tobirama (he was his right hand), then by Tobirama and people chosen by Tobirama, then by students chosen by Tobirama (of course without Kagami Uchiha). The first light of hope, was that one of his students (Hiruzen) was only a co-student, since partially he was educated by Hashirama (and as mentioned by Danzou, he inherited Hashirama's teachings and not Tobirama's). Still the rest of the ones ruling Konoha had pretty much similar mindset to Tobirama, again leaving only the Hokoga as the person that could protect the Uchiha. The moment that there were 2 people in power that could relight the bond between Uchiha and the village, was truly something that could change their relations for better. Unfortunately, that chance was lost the moment that the Kyubi attacked. The fact that the Uchiha weren't present imply that they had some gathering, perhaps in order to reconsider if it's possible to bond with the village again thanks to the village's new government. The tablet supposedly says that when two opposing forces combine, true peace can be achieved, so of course, discussing it (the new possibility) while looking at the tablet, sounds like something that the clansmen would do.

    Looking at it this way, I can see what Tobi meant by the fact that Konoha was ruled by the Senju (at least until 4th Hokage was chosen, but after his death, it was pretty much over for them). I can see as well what Madara meant that Uchiha would become the Senju's dogs, though he was mistaken to believe that it would always be like that. It seems that if he and Uchiha were strong enough to withstand persecutions long enough, until the 4th came, then it would have been possible to overcome it. In a way, they are in a much better position than a Jinchurki, since they still had each other. Still, statistically most Jinchurki fail and are unable to overcome all that hate and persecutions, so it's natural that a bigger population would fail the same, with a few individuals being able to overcome them (like Shisui and Itachi).

    Quote Originally Posted by lunchroomclassic View Post
    After this chapter, where does Ohnoki's flashback fit in? It seems the leaf didn't have forehead protectors with the village symbol at the time Madara left, and if I remember correctly, Madara was wearing a leaf forehead protector during his quick scuffle with Muu and Ohnoki.
    Someone already mentioned that it was likely that this event happened after Madara left, since he left right after Hashirama was chosen. What's more, it's likely that the headbands were created after Hashirama married with Mito, since the Uzumaki clan symbol is a part of the Konoha's symbol. Beside, Madara's words and actions at that event, were so full of hate, obviously harmful to Konoha, that it is likely that he did it after leaving the village.



    BTW I'm still wondering about Tobirama's red eyes. It seems that he inherited his white hair and red eyes from his mother, one of his brothers seems to have inherited it partially as well. Thus I have to wonder, if it's possible that their mother was a far relative to the Uchiha ? Man, that would be a little wicked if it turned out like that after what he was doing to them . Perhaps he himself was being influence by that chakra without knowing ? Man, this could really turn out interesting .

    Edit: this looks like a fun way in which they could have cooperated (though Hashirama and Madara alone could have done it ):
    Spoiler!
    Last edited by Zero; 04-01-2013 at 02:03 PM.



  3. #63
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    and his right hand (3rd Hokage) was someone that would certainly back him up in reconnecting the village with the Uchiha. This was the first time in Konoha's history that Uchiha truly had the chance, the first time that leadership of the village was more fair than it ever was.


    Looking at it this way, I can see what Tobi meant by the fact that Konoha was ruled by the Senju (at least until 4th Hokage was chosen, but after his death, it was pretty much over for them).

    Edit: this looks like a fun way in which they could have cooperated (though Hashirama and Madara alone could have done it ):
    Spoiler!
    1) Sarutobi Hiruzen (sandaime) was a follower of Hashirama's policies...This was explicitly stated by Danzo. Danzo himself was also not a Senju.

    2) Sarutobi Hiruzen (sandaime) Was NOT a SENJU.

    3) The Fourth Hokage (Yondaime) may also not have been a Senju

    The village was not being ruled by Senjus for the longest part of its history. The Uchiha may have felt humiliated, but the idea of wiping them out (for no reason) was a figment of Madara's imagination. There is No Evidence to support it.

    I am not perfect and I defy you to prove otherwise
    Growing Old Gracefully is an Oxymoron ... Mostly Moron !

  4. #64
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    It was shown that Hokage is merely a part of the government, yes the most influential part, but if every other part is against him, then even he cannot do much.

    Senju were governing the Konoha, not by using the Senju name, but through their teachings. The only or especially the time that all of Tobirama's students (beside Hiruzen) who govern the village (the councilors and black ops leader), were agreeing, is in accordance to Uchiha. Tobirama's teaching have clearly prevailed at that part. Even when the fifth was chosen, they were still part of the Konoha's government (the Hokage has changed, yet their influence, positions and power did not; the only time there was some bigger change, was at the 4th's time).

    The problem was not only that an Uchiha would never be chosen as Hokage, but that they would never be part of the government as well, thus greatly reducing their influence, not to mention that most people in the government were against them. It is mentioned by Tobi to be one of the reasons of forming the police force (http://www.mangastream.to/naruto-cha...9-page-13.html). Looking at Oro's comments and Tobirama's behavior, it does seem to be true.


    Speaking of Oro, I'm quite interested in Oro's real intentions in destroying Konoha (http://www.mangastream.to/naruto-cha...21-page-4.html, http://www.mangastream.to/naruto-cha...21-page-5.html). I see some notions that Tobriama's actions might have affected him personally. Oro is a genius and he does seem to have noticed many things about the village and it's darkness, but to want to destroy it rather than simply leaving it... a grudge, or perhaps... well, it will probably be revealed in a couple of chapters.


    In Naruto, there is no such thing as inheritable, or truly evil people. There are only humans, who under adverse circumstances, made the wrong choices.

    For example, for the demise of the Uchiha, there was not a single person that was fully responsible, frankly speaking, if even one of the choices made by certain people were different, then it might not have lead to it. It's the chain of choices that many people made, that lead to it, even though all of them had a possibility of choosing a different one. In other words, there is no one to blame, beside themselves.

    Let's see, for example here:
    Spoiler!

    The Senju were obviously stronger than the Uchiha, what's more, Madara - the clan head - would soon lose his power because of his progressing blindness, his brother - the second strongest Uchiha at time - would soon fallow his footsteps, the one proposing the truce - the leader of the Senju - was once his friend, they once saved each others lives, so trusting him isn't unreasonable. Madara was a reasonable guy at that time, you can notice that he truly considered it, but his brother's voice, his distrust against the opposing clan and the fact that he was the last of Madara's family, were enough to stop him (Hashirama himself would make a similar mistake later on, for the same reasons, even if both of their younger brothers were partially wrong). At this point, if Izuna would not have stopped Madara, or if Madara could see beyond his brotherly love (it's similar later on with Hashirama and Tobirama), then they would make the truce at the spot and quickly take care of the wounded from both sides. Even if they wouldn't be able to save Izuna's life, the act of trying to save it would have been an important factor later on.

    There are other examples of other people that could make the difference by choosing a different path, there are even those that were able to overcome their shortcomings or disadvantageous circumstances and see the bigger picture, like Shisui, Itachi, Hiruzen, Naruto and soon likely Sasuke and Kabuto as well.



  5. #65
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    Just wandering why you chose Tobirama as an exemplar of Senju Teachings? After all there were Hashirama's teachings too, a prime example of which is the Will of Fire. Also the majority of Ninjas seemed to be opposed to someone like Danzo becoming Hokage.

    Anyway I don't now see Konoha as a Senju Haven, it is amixture of many clans, nor do I see the Senju ideology as being anything nefarious given their belief in the will of fire.

    Finally, To really understand Kishimoto's intended portrayal of Konoha, you only have to re-read Itachi's comment :-


    I am not perfect and I defy you to prove otherwise
    Growing Old Gracefully is an Oxymoron ... Mostly Moron !

  6. #66
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    Just wandering why you chose Tobirama as an exemplar of Senju Teachings? After all there were Hashirama's teachings too, a prime example of which is the Will of Fire. Also the majority of Ninjas seemed to be opposed to someone like Danzo becoming Hokage.

    Anyway I don't now see Konoha as a Senju Haven, it is amixture of many clans, nor do I see the Senju ideology as being anything nefarious given their belief in the will of fire.

    Finally, To really understand Kishimoto's intended portrayal of Konoha, you only have to re-read Itachi's comment :-

    What do you mean why ? He was the most influential Senju after Hashirama and his ideals, believes were much closer to the Senju's clan than Hashrama's. It's natural to pick an influential person, that also represent the Senju mindset, rather than some random unnamed Senju.

    Those showcasing the will of fire in actions and not only words, are a minority. Hashirama and Itachi are obviously a minority within their clans. Naruto is even a minority within the village, seeing as most of them would have slaughtered Nagato if they had the chance (the best way to take care of your enemy, is to turn him into your ally/comrade).

    Funny enough, the will of fire was somewhat lighted by Madara, by his test that showcased one's readiness to lay your own life for the good of all/village. Speaking of which, it's a little strange that Tobirama was shitting his pants thinking that his brother will kill him. Oh come one, were they brothers in name and blood only ? How could he really expect for his brother to kill him ? I think that Kishi went a little too far with this one, they have spend many years with each other, he should know better...

    Speaking about Tobirama, it's a little strange that it was unfair for Madara to test Hashirama like that, even though later on he tested his students in a similar way...

    The majority of the village didn't even know Danzou, if they have somehow heard something about him, it obviously wasn't anything good, beside the current Hokage was alive, only in a short come, so choosing someone without a proper fame, which village know little to nothing about, is something that most normal people would be even against (you can notice that Kakashi was better fulfilling those conditions than Danzou, even if he wasn't able to protect what he had and promised to...).

    I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of the village would have been opposed to Tobirama's being a Hokage, if they heard about what he was doing to a certain clan, simply from the fear of the possibility that they might be the next one's target by him. It's all politics in the end. Nevertheless, Tobirama did protect the village, even if not the original dream that Hashi and Madi had, new generations, who had the chance to change thins, were still born in there.

    The will of fire is not a Senju's but Hashirama, the founder's will, so it's not a surprise that the village would try to follow it.

    Every village and every thing has it's good and bad sides, it's natural. Sometimes you just need to accept it, but sometimes, you need to break the system, if the system is wrong...



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