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  1. #51
    Yesss... Rlinfamous's Avatar
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    I don't consider Tobirama to be a real villain... but he definitely was responsible for destroying every opportunity Madara had to be "good." He killed Izuna, and stood as a constant reminder that the score was not equal between Madara/Hashirama. He represented the lack of trust the village had towards Madara, essentially making it impossible for Madara to feel attatchment to Konoha (of the familial sort that Hashirama hoped for, anyway). Tobirama also represented the Senju clan's hatred of the Uchiha, tainting the friendship created by Hashirama... in the end, Hashirama was the only one who stood by Madara, and that alone would have been enough if Tobirama hadn't remained as Hashirama's flesh and blood brother.

    It's sad, because as much as Madara doubted that Hashirama could part with his younger brother, even for all of Hashirama's claims that Madara was like a brother to him, I believe that Tobirama felt a similar sort of insecurity... Madara was the one who, in so many ways, stole Tobirama's brother from him, just as Tobirama did to Madara. Madara, unlike Tobirama, was the only one who could challenge Hashirama in battle; compared to the two, Tobirama was powerless. Hashirama was even willing to lay down his life, leaving Tobirama without any family, all to appease Madara for a truce... to Hashirama, this may have been a fair chance to avoid killing his younger brother and still make peace, but it's highly inconsiderate to Tobiraama's feelings.

  2. #52
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    @ Famous, I'd like you to consider things differently.

    There is no real evidence for a Senju hatred/dislike for the Uchiha beyond what all the other formerly warring clans felt for the Uchiha, and for each other. Yes, Tobirama as an individual certainly felt it hard to trust Madara and the Uchiha because there were some realy hard feelings. After all, Tobirama did lose two brothers to Uchiha attacks, and he probably was also influenced by his dad's attitudes.

    I cannot honestly blame Tobirama for Madara's rejection as Hokage.

    There was after all a Democratic vote, and this was not a Senju vs Uchiha vote. Unless I am mistaken, the other clans that wanted to join Konoha also participated inthe voting, distrust for Madara was not a Senju thing (IMO), it was Everybody, meaning that when it came down to the vote, The Akamichi, the Nara, the Sarutobi, and the Other clans, all of them felt that Hashirama was the right choice, and I think they were right. Madara would probably have made a good Hokage, but the Clans all wanted The Man With The Vision (Hashirama), to lead them into the future.

    One last word in Tobirama's defence. How could he be expected to Trust Madara really? Remember that Madara wanted Hasirama TO KILL TOBIRAMA or himself as the price for joining the Village. How can anyone be expected to warm up to the guy who's Clan Killed off your Family and to the Man (Madara) who demanded your death?

    I see here another instance of Kishimoto crafting a Lose/Lose scenario around Tobirama, the same way he crafted it around Itachi. We all considered Itachi to be a villain for killing the Uchihas initially, but he was not a true villain. He was just caught up in a circumstance that had no good endings for a Ninja.

    Tobirama was severe and untrusting, but he also had good reasons to be like that, and lets face it in the end, he didn't actually do anything unreasonable or harmful to the Uchiha, and although the indirect consequeces of his severe outlook turned out harmful, the harm would not have happened without Tobi/Madara unleashing the Fox on Konoha.

    Madara was the architect of his own downfall and the demise of his own clan by his own actions and by the actions of his chosen Avatar, Tobi, NOT by Tobirama's action. If Madara had not left Konoha, sulking because the various clans did not chose him to be Hokage, and if Tobi had not brought the fox to attack Konoha, none of the bad stuff would have happened, and the Uchihas WOULD NOT have been wiped out.

    The Hard nosed bare facts undeniable truth is that Madara did it to himself and to his clan all because he wanted to be Hokage.
    Last edited by paulbee; 03-31-2013 at 01:09 PM.

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  3. #53
    Senior Member thebulk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    I cannot honestly blame Tobirama for Madara's rejection as Hokage.

    There was after all a Democratic vote, and this was not a Senju vs Uchiha vote. Unless I am mistaken, the other clans that wanted to join Konoha also participated inthe voting, distrust for Madara was not a Senju thing (IMO), it was Everybody, meaning that when it came down to the vote, The Akamichi, the Nara, the Sarutobi, and the Other clans, all of them felt that Hashirama was the right choice, and I think they were right. Madara would probably have made a good Hokage, but the Clans all wanted The Man With The Vision (Hashirama), to lead them into the future.

    One last word in Tobirama's defence. How could he be expected to Trust Madara really? Remember that Madara wanted Hasirama TO KILL TOBIRAMA or himself as the price for joining the Village. How can anyone be expected to warm up to the guy who's Clan Killed off your Family and to the Man (Madara) who demanded your death?

    I see here another instance of Kishimoto crafting a Lose/Lose scenarion around Tobirama, the same way he crafted it around Itachi. We all considered Itachi to be a villain for killing the Uchihas initially, but he was not a true villain. He was just caught up in a circumstance that had no good endings for a Ninja.

    Tobirama was severe and untrusting, but he also had good reasons to be like that, and lets face it in the end, he didn't actually do anything unreasonable or harmful to the Uchiha, and although the indirect consequeces of his severe outlook turned out harmful, the harm would not have happened without Tobi/Madara unleashing the Fox on Konoha.

    Madara was the architect of his own downfall and the demise of his own clan by his own actions and by the actions of his chosen Avatar, Tobi, NOT by Tobirama's action. If Madara had not left Konoha, sulking because the various clans did not chose him to be Hokage, and if Tobi had not brought the fox to attack Konoha, none of the bad stuff would have happened, and the Uchihas WOULD NOT have been wiped out.

    The Hard nosed bare facts undeniable truth is that Madara did it to himself and to his clan all because he wanted to be Hokage.
    This ↑. Took the words right out my mouth n i couldnt have said it better myself.

  4. #54
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    @ Famous, I'd like you to consider things differently.

    There is no real evidence for a Senju hatred/dislike for the Uchiha beyond what all the other formerly warring clans felt for the Uchiha, and for each other. Yes, Tobirama as an individual certainly felt it hard to trust Madara and the Uchiha because there were some realy hard feelings. After all, Tobirama did lose two brothers to Uchiha attacks, and he probably was also influenced by his dad's attitudes.

    I cannot honestly blame Tobirama for Madara's rejection as Hokage.

    There was after all a Democratic vote, and this was not a Senju vs Uchiha vote. Unless I am mistaken, the other clans that wanted to join Konoha also participated inthe voting, distrust for Madara was not a Senju thing (IMO), it was Everybody, meaning that when it came down to the vote, The Akamichi, the Nara, the Sarutobi, and the Other clans, all of them felt that Hashirama was the right choice, and I think they were right. Madara would probably have made a good Hokage, but the Clans all wanted The Man With The Vision (Hashirama), to lead them into the future.

    One last word in Tobirama's defence. How could he be expected to Trust Madara really? Remember that Madara wanted Hasirama TO KILL TOBIRAMA or himself as the price for joining the Village. How can anyone be expected to warm up to the guy who's Clan Killed off your Family and to the Man (Madara) who demanded your death?

    I see here another instance of Kishimoto crafting a Lose/Lose scenarion around Tobirama, the same way he crafted it around Itachi. We all considered Itachi to be a villain for killing the Uchihas initially, but he was not a true villain. He was just caught up in a circumstance that had no good endings for a Ninja.

    Tobirama was severe and untrusting, but he also had good reasons to be like that, and lets face it in the end, he didn't actually do anything unreasonable or harmful to the Uchiha, and although the indirect consequeces of his severe outlook turned out harmful, the harm would not have happened without Tobi/Madara unleashing the Fox on Konoha.

    Madara was the architect of his own downfall and the demise of his own clan by his own actions and by the actions of his chosen Avatar, Tobi, NOT by Tobirama's action. If Madara had not left Konoha, sulking because the various clans did not chose him to be Hokage, and if Tobi had not brought the fox to attack Konoha, none of the bad stuff would have happened, and the Uchihas WOULD NOT have been wiped out.

    The Hard nosed bare facts undeniable truth is that Madara did it to himself and to his clan all because he wanted to be Hokage.
    It is clear that other clans barely knew Senju and Uchiha beside what they heard of them (you simply do not employ those that can't handle the job) and we know at that time, the Senju's propaganda (clearly stated by Hashirama and the truth revealed by Tobirama) was going around the world at that time, even to the current age it is still believed to be the truth. Then just compare Madara's somewhat-ugly face (mentioned by Hashirama) with a handsome charismatic Hashirama, and the choice is made without even looking into the matters.

    He had his reasons and it was his choice.

    Funny enough the democratic vote only happened the first time, while all other times it seems that the Hokage was chosen by the previous Hokage (it seems like it was actually targeted at Madara, to show him that he has no place in Konoha, because Madara himself was thinking that it would better that Hashirama was the one, until Hashirama insisted). The democratic vote, among the people that just came to the village, that have only heard legends and fairy tails about Hashirama and some atrocities (which in reality weren't) about Madara.

    It was quite clearly stated that Madara was misunderstood and his demand, the choices he gave, was an act of kindness (depends on translations). It was quite reasonable, a single sacrifice for the peace of all and it didn't have to be Izuna's killer (which means that it wasn't about revenge). Beside, it was more of a test, to see if Hashirama is sincere about what he was saying (remember that the young Uchiha and Senju were semi-brainwashed, in order to never trust the other side, but both Madara and Hashirama were able to overcome it).

    At the last pages of this chapter, when Madara and Hashirma were discussing the tablet, it was revealed that Tobirama WAS plotting something (clearly against the Uchiha), what's more Hashirama knew about it as well and said that he will do something about it. Then Madara asked, which would he cut down if he had to ? A righteous (stated by Hashirama) brother that is not related by blood, but detested and misunderstood by majority, or a blood related brother, that is respected by most, yet is plotting to annihilate one of the village's fundamental clans, which may lead to the village destruction itself ? Madara knew and understood why Hashirama would have been unable to cut his own blood related brother, that's why he left.

    There still might be more things that Tobirama did that we don't know about. The Kyubi attack itself was simply a drop that overfilled the cup, or rather the coup that they planned after? loosing the rest of the trust from the village, since there was no real evidence that they were the ones behind the attack. You don't destroy the country or the whole family, for a criminal act of one of it's members. If the Uchiha were trusted, then likely more of them would have been invited into ANBU and likely would assist in the defense. If they were trusted, then there shouldn't be any problem in explaining were they went, or perhaps they wouldn't even leave quietly the village, since they would be in the middle of the village rather than at the outskirts.

    Both Tobirama and Madara had reasons for what they did, but the truth is that Madara was more righteous of the two. Madara couldn't believe and trust Tobirama, since there was evidence that he was plotting against the Uchiha and even Hashirama kknew it. While Tobirama couldn't believe and trust Madara, who was Hashirama's friend, who put his complete trust in Hashirama after testing him once, without the need to fulfill his demands, simply because of the possibility that they might once get out of control. So, we have Madara that did what he did, because Tobirama was doing something, while Tobirma did what he did, because the Uchiha could have done something in the future. Neither of them were evil form the beginning, Tobirama simply was not able to overcome the mistrust that was implanted into his subconsciouses when he was just a little kid.



  5. #55
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    Zero, just a few points.

    1) The other Clans were likely no friends of either the Senju or The Uchiha at the start, since all of them were previously Mutual enemies and rivals. They had all probably been beaten by both Senju and Uchiha in previous conflicts. They would have formed their own impressions and biases about both Uchiha and Senju/ Hashirama and Madara.

    2) I think you are underestimating the effect of Madara's demand on Tobirama. For an enemy to demand your death at you brother's hand is quite a Pill to swallow, especially if you are a battle hardened Ninja. It does not matter whether Madara meant it or not, to Tobirama, it would have been unforgivable.

    3) If by Senju propaganda you mean that Senju believe in Love, but Uchiha believe in Jutsu, then you should ask yourself why Tobi/Obito, (a man who was Madara's chosen Avatar) said exactly the same thing to Sasuke. Frankly I don't think that it's a lie, it just not the complete truth.

    4) Looking at the Fox's attack, there was one distinct proof that it was under some form of control, astute ninjas like Sarutobi Hiruzen, or Shimura Danzo would have noticed that the Fox's eye had changed. While it did not have Tomes during the attack on the village, it's pupils had changed from its normal cat-like appearance.

    Even without proof of Uchiha involvement inthe Foxes attack, the Fact still remains that Tobi/Madara's attack using the Fox, precipitated the hardening of Anbu surveillance of the Uchiha, in other words, it was a self inflicted (even if unintended ) injury.

    5) Finally comparing Madara and Tobirama. Madara's suggestion that the Uchiha would be wiped out had no justification. They were distrusted, YES, Wiped out..NO.

    If Madara had stayed in the village and allowed time to heal wounds of distrust (as Hashirama said), he may never had become Hokage, but he and the Uchihas would not have been Harmed.

    If Tobi had not brought the Fox to Konoha, the Uchias would have been trusted more under Sarutobi, and they certainly would not have been harmed.

    I maintain that the demise of the Uchiha would never have happened in spite of Tobirama's distrust of them, if the two above unnecessary deeds by Madara and Tobi had never been done.

    I am not perfect and I defy you to prove otherwise
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  6. #56
    I'll be waiting, be sure. Yoru's Avatar
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    You're right Paul. Neither I think Tobirama would go as far as eliminating Uchihas (which he did not do). He kept a close eye on them and distrusted them, but he apparently didn't decide to take any actions against them, in fact i think he learned to look at them differently after having Kagami as his pupil. When Sarutobi was Hokage he trusted them a lot more than his predecessor: if there weren't Homura, Koharu, Danzo and Tobi everything would still be ok.

  7. #57
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    Of course, they are one of the founder clans, eradicating them without a good reason would be bad for the public, so making the public dislike them is the first step and it was successful (rumors, propaganda, the role of the police force, etc). The role of a police force, given only to the Uchiha, had 2 effects. First, the standard power corrupting effect and the second, the publics dislike of authorities and those that govern, hold power (already mentioned by Oro and others). Since Uchiha were the only members of the police force, automatically all that discount was transferred towards them. Tobirama claims that he at least wanted to make them useful, but in reality, the police force itself seems pointless and the Konoha right after the Uchiha massacre, was handling fine if not better without it, which means that it's real purpose was never that of guarding peace and order (it wasn't really needed), seeing as it's sudden disappearance had no effect on those. It was simply another way to keep them together in one place and monitor any of their moves. This means that Tobirama didn't even give them the chance to prove their trust. He openly states that from the very beginning he believed that they would rebel and rather than doing something in order to avoid it, he simply made preparations so that eliminating them would have been easier. In short he was planing to annihilate them eventually. When Oro states that Tobirama's actions is what pushed them into rebellion in the first place, he refers to his comment as nonsense.

    We have to remember that as long as Hashirama lived, he wouldn't allow Tobirama to do anything against the Uchiha. It seems that the police force formed after his demise as well. It's likely that Hashirama lived quite a bit, since he had time to spoil his granddaughter. If we assume that Mito first gave birth after becoming a jinchurki, then this gives him around 20-40 years after the Vote.

    Beside the Uchiha there were other risks involved with certain people living within the village, like a Jinchurki with the current time's strongest Bijuu inside, or perhaps the possibility of similar symptoms existing in other doujutsu wielding clans and of course, those clans and people that accompanied them. Yet, it seems that only Uchiha were treaded differently (though I'm still not sure when the Hyuga joined the village, there is simply no mention of it, perhaps the Whirlpool Village was made of two clans as well, the Uzumaki and Hyuga ?).



  8. #58
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    Zero,These are the Facts.

    1) There is no evidence in the Manga that Tobirama wanted to dispose of the Uchiha. This was Madara's presumption. There is every evidence that he distrusted them and had them under surveillance

    2) Tobirama did become Hokage and He didn't dispose of them.

    3) Sandaime followed Tobirama and he adopted Hashirama's views. This was one of the things Danzo hated about Sandaime and Tsunade.

    4) Both the Fox's attack and the Uchiha massacre happened under Sandaime (who was a follower of Hashirama's tolerance principle). I maintain that Had the Attack never happened, then none of these Uchiha problems would have happened either.

    If you are still not persuaded by my arguments, it's fine. Just answer this: What is Kishimoto really trying to tell us about Tobirama. Is he really painting Tobirama as a bad guy, or is he up to his patented (IMO) and subtle "no one is really bad" theme. I think it's the later, much the same as with Itachi, and even with Danzou who I personally dislike and think of as little more than a human Cockroach.
    Last edited by paulbee; 04-01-2013 at 01:18 AM.

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  9. #59
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    Zero,These are the Facts.

    1) There is no evidence in the Manga that Tobirama wanted to dispose of the Uchiha. This was Madara's presumption. There is every evidence that he distrusted them and had them under surveillance

    2) Tobirama did become Hokage and He didn't dispose of them.

    3) Sandaime followed Tobirama and he adopted Hashirama's views. This was one of the things Danzo hated about Sandaime and Tsunade.

    4) Both the Fox's attack and the Uchiha massacre happened under Sandaime (who was a follower of Hashirama's tolerance principle). I maintain that Had the Attack never happened, then none of these Uchiha problems would have happened either.
    Well, Tobirama states that annihilation is an appropriate punishment for a coup and he says that he knew that they would rebel eventually (http://www.mangastream.to/naruto-cha...0-page-12.html) perhaps it was only his believe, or perhaps it's because he was pushing them into it. He already had prepared a punishment for something he was sure that they will commit, now the only unknown is if he really pushed them into it unwittingly, as stated by Oro and Tobi (though right after that he reveals it's true purpose), or if he did intentionally. Hashirama does mention that Tobirama is a bit slow on the uptake, but for him to so surely discard Orochimaru's statement as nonsense, without even taking it into consideration, might imply that he already thought about it thoroughly (which means that he did it intentionally), or he is so blinded, or too stubborn to admit his mistake.

    Hashirama clearly state that Tobirama's actions are indeed persecutions (http://www.mangastream.to/naruto-cha...0-page-13.html) and that he warned Tobirama not to continue them (continue, which means that he was persecuting them while Hashirama was alive, if not from the very beginning). You can notice that Hashirama didn't know about it. At this point Tobirama tries to defend himself before his brother with a semi-lie or a real lie, depending if he was too blinded to realize the consequence of his action or if he knew them clearly (assuming that he was smart enough to know to what they will lead too).

    Tobi, while pretending to be Madara, does mention that Senju would eventually exterminate to Uchiha and so does the real Madara. It seems both were right, looking at the above statements and pages, where punishment and the crime were already considered as inevitable truths (at least by Tobirama and the rest of the Senju without counting Hashirama).

    Uchiha were one of the founding clans, they couldn't have been exterminated without a good enough reason for the public, but the seeds that would push them into rebellion were already sewn by Tobirama, all that was left was await the appropriate moment to annihilate them. He was sure about it, and it came, intentionally or not. The final push was the Kyubi attack, but the attack itself wouldn't push them to such extreme if it wasn't for Tobirama's previous works.



  10. #60
    Senior Member thebulk's Avatar
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    Thing is zero, I find a lot of your arguments and ideas based on heavy assumption. Aka Tobirama suspecting that the Uchiha would eventually rebel is one thing, but to jump to the conclusion that he had already prepared a punishment for them? Not far fetched but definitely not definitive. And yes whilst Tobirama does play a significant part in pushing the Uchiha into a corner, to absolve Madara of blame is frankly really naive. I mean the way i see it madara simply used Tobirama not liking him as an excuse to go ape on the rest of the village.

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