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  1. #11
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    I don't think that tobirama is a villain. He is jsut very prejudice when it comes to the uchiha. All that has happened and he still holds a grudge toward them. War does that to people and i feel Tobirama has the best intentions gone wrong. He jsut wants to protect the village and he feels the uchiha will kill everyone. His mistakes led to more deaths in his village then he realized. But you have to look at the bigger picture too. Could the villages have been united if it wasn't for madara's moon eyes' plan?

  2. #12
    Senior Member Temperjoke's Avatar
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    Well, something to keep in mind, most villains feel that their actions are truly justified and required. It's rare to have a chaotic villain who does stuff just because. From Tobirama's perspective, his concerns about the Uchiha were totally valid. After all, their clans had been at war for a long time, with many deaths on either side. Sure, from our outside view as readers we can totally see that he's in the wrong, but I can understand why Tobirama wouldn't trust Madara or the Uchiha.

    As for the Hokage thing, it makes a lot more sense why Hashirama would be chosen over Madara, given that almost all of the efforts to bring the clans together was from Hashirama's side, and he demonstrated a willingness to sacrifice his own life for the village even before it was formed.

  3. #13
    LOL, U MAD? Arbitrary's Avatar
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    The finger movement seems to suggest a genjutsu (think: Itachi) was done.

    But! It's Hashirama, I just don't know if that was the precise moment he let his guard down.

  4. #14
    Senior Member thebulk's Avatar
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    Like many have already mentioned I don't like how Tobirama is being portrayed as the so called villain here. Sure he was biased and had hard hitting policies toward the uchiha but they were totally valid. Not to mention it always takes 2 hands to clap and madara sure as hell didn't exactly do anything to ease the tension.

    Ultimately Madara's fall into darkness if he already wasn't in already was completely his own doing despite the actions of tobirama. I mean itachi was put in fairly shitty situations as well but he still made the best decisions out of it.

  5. #15
    Senior Member kuroihikari's Avatar
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    Tobirama also changed between then and now. Note how he blamed the Uchiha's fickleness on hatred in this chapter, while in the present time he blamed it on love.

    Clearly something big happened in between then and before Tobirama's death.

  6. #16
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kuroihikari View Post
    Tobirama also changed between then and now. Note how he blamed the Uchiha's fickleness on hatred in this chapter, while in the present time he blamed it on love.

    Clearly something big happened in between then and before Tobirama's death.
    Well, he was traveling with a young Uchiha (Kagami) that probably was his student. He probably started seeing them a little differently after spending quality time with him, maybe. Although, he mentions that he could no longer allow himself to believe in Uchiha after what Madara pulled (the kuybi ?) suggests he was warming up to them before Vote, probably around the time that Madara was gone from the village.



  7. #17
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    Note, The Sarutobi Clan are not Senju. I bet the Akamichi and Nara were not Senju either.

    The Village is not and was not just about Senju power, else Sandaime Sarutobi would not have become Hokage, that is one hole in Tobi's plot of lies he's fed to Sasuke.


    Quote Originally Posted by yutterh View Post
    I don't think that tobirama is a villain. He is jsut very prejudice when it comes to the uchiha. All that has happened and he still holds a grudge toward them. War does that to people and i feel Tobirama has the best intentions gone wrong. He jsut wants to protect the village and he feels the uchiha will kill everyone. His mistakes led to more deaths in his village then he realized. But you have to look at the bigger picture too. Could the villages have been united if it wasn't for madara's moon eyes' plan?
    I agree. Madara did not have to react the way he did, and none of the other clans felt prejudiced by not becoming the Hokage.

    I think the "Evil chakra" together with Tobirama's tough guy approach did them in. I wonder if Tobirama is aware of the The Senju's ancestral links to the Uchiha?

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  8. #18
    Senior Member Maximo's Avatar
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    I really liked this chapter. As it turns out, Madara was a victim of prejudice but also his genetics. Without the sharingan, he would have been much better person. Although one can argue about about just what exactly does the sharingan do to make people "evil". I mean, Itachi boosted his sharingan up to Mangekyo and yet he was above his hatred.

    Why wasnt Madara ? Was it Madaras cocky and self-centered attitude that the sharingan "exploited" and turned him evil ? Or maybe there is a way of controling the hatred, through some sort of willpower or meditation techniques ? I would really like if Kishi atleast touched on this subject and tell us maybe how Itachi battled his hatred.
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  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maximo View Post
    I really liked this chapter. As it turns out, Madara was a victim of prejudice but also his genetics. Without the sharingan, he would have been much better person. Although one can argue about about just what exactly does the sharingan do to make people "evil". I mean, Itachi boosted his sharingan up to Mangekyo and yet he was above his hatred.

    Why wasnt Madara ? Was it Madaras cocky and self-centered attitude that the sharingan "exploited" and turned him evil ? Or maybe there is a way of controling the hatred, through some sort of willpower or meditation techniques ? I would really like if Kishi atleast touched on this subject and tell us maybe how Itachi battled his hatred.
    I was just thinking about this, too. Itachi was not born into the same shinobi world as Madara was. Sure, there was subterfuge and a lot of things going on under the surface, but he was born into a much more peaceful world. He had his Mom and Dad and little brother and understood that the village was an extension of all of them, and he was praised up and down.

    Madara was not accepted by the village, or even his only friend's brother, and could look only inward to his own power to validate his existence. the only way to test and hone that power was to battle his only friend (Hashirama) who wanted nothing more than to be the bridge of peace that connected Madara to the village.

    Itachi had great power and used it to protect his village but mistakenly relied too much on himself. With nothing and no one to protect, Madara felt cast out and rejected and turned to his power as the only way to validate his existence and he could only rely on himself.

    The saddest part of it is that Hashirama had no true supporter besides Madara. Imagine what would have happened if Hashirama realized that and decided to fight with Madara instead of for the ideals of peace... The two of them could have put an end to the shinobi world by themselves.

    random thought: Madara seems kind of like a bored kid who learned to the password to God Mode in a game. he's got nothing else to do, no one to care about, no goals or ideals, and he just wants to play with the unlimited power but it gets boring alone...

  10. #20
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maximo View Post
    I really liked this chapter. As it turns out, Madara was a victim of prejudice but also his genetics. Without the sharingan, he would have been much better person. Although one can argue about about just what exactly does the sharingan do to make people "evil". I mean, Itachi boosted his sharingan up to Mangekyo and yet he was above his hatred.

    Why wasnt Madara ? Was it Madaras cocky and self-centered attitude that the sharingan "exploited" and turned him evil ? Or maybe there is a way of controling the hatred, through some sort of willpower or meditation techniques ? I would really like if Kishi atleast touched on this subject and tell us maybe how Itachi battled his hatred.
    That's simple, loneliness and hatred towards your entire being, that pretty much make everyone in the series evil. That's pretty much how a Jinchuriki feels. Madara was alienated, misunderstood, hated and detested. No one believed in him (besides Hashirama) and he could not keep any of the promises he was forced to keep, by the sacrifice of the most important people to him. On the other hand, Itachi was different. Almost everyone believed in him, they did not force their wishes upon him, they strengthened his own wishes and choices. His decisions were accepted and understood by many, the Hokage, the Root(), Shisui and even his own parents, even though they and their clan was annihilated by him and now even the love of his brother has returned. If Madara had at least half of what Itachi had/experienced through crucial interaction with others, he likely would have been different, his fate might have been much better.

    Sure, if Madara had accepted peace around the time that both, he and Hahsirama have become the clan heads, then perhaps it would have ended differently.


    @paul, seeing as Sarutobi was born around the time that the village already existed, it might be that one of his parents was a Senju (it might have been the final push that made them join the Senju X Uchiha alliance). Then again, it might be more about that the Hokages were in reality chosen by the Senju (through spreading despicable rumors about the opposition as it seems, like that Uchiha fought for power/jutsu an not love/peace and the like) and not real, fair democracy. The First was chosen partially through Tobirama's background work, Tobirama then was chosen because of the already existing legend and to tribute to his older brother, then Sarutobi solely chosen by Tobirama (a little funny, when previously Tobirama was demanding democracy ), then Namikaze chosen by Sarutobi and then Tsundae chosen partially by her name (well, Tsunade might not be included into that countdown ).

    Until we learn the background and family trees of all Hokage (which we don't know too well), we can't really dismiss what Tobi said about the Senju controlling the village.



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