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  1. #61
    Scanlator POW's Avatar
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    Everyone also should keep in mind that while Kishi may have the general layout of the manga in his head some of the fine details he adds as he goes along to fill in the gaps. The fact that Izuna's injuries lead to his death may also include the idea that the Uchiha clan was attacked or got into a conflict by some unknown element and Izuna being handicapped cause of his injuries and without his sharingan died.


    I mean look at Kimimaro who was also dying of a fatal disease for some time but was still able to go into one last battle. Same with Itachi and his final showdown with Sasuke. Even though Sasuke claims he killed Itachi to the Hokages he really died of a disease but one could argue it was the battle that aggravated his condition that lead to his death.


    So all this needless nitpicking over minor details here doesn't really change the major facts that have already been laid down.

    - Madara was going blind as anyone who uses MS does.
    - Izuna gave his eyes to Madara and later dies.
    - Madara receives a peace treaty from Hashirama
    - The rest of the Uchiha clan wanted the war to end
    - Madara didn't trust the Senju and was angry that his brother sacrificed his life
    - Madara as the leader was forced to accept Hashirama's terms cause the rest of the Uchiha clan lost the will to continue fighting


    I leave it there as I want to see what details Hashirama's flashback reveals next.


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  2. #62
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rlinfamous View Post
    Well, some of Obito's lies to Sasuke were to make the Uchiha look more like victims in order to feed Sasuke's hatred of Konoha. Also, Obito lied about things like "I gave Nagato the Rinnegan" because he needed to crush Konan's pride that Nagato, a Shinobi from her country, had awakened the Rinnegan... but Obito couldn't reveal his true identity, even to someone he was about to kill, so he said it as if he were actually Madara.

    Then there's the matter of things like saying to Kushina "Do you know how long I have waited for this moment?!" When actually it wasn't very long, just a couple of years at the very most... things like that are indeed pointless and misleading, and are very frustrating.

    And things like Obito's tale to Naruto about the Rikudou Lineage and the legacy of hatred... things like "I can see that Hashirama lives on in you, the man I most admired, and hated" (I messed up the quote a bit)... that is such a WTF moment. I believe Obito hates the Senju because they represent faith in humanity/change/peace through love, all of which Obito rejects as empty words that only lead to suffering within reality. However, there's no reason for him to feel personally bitter towards Hashirama, so the act is taking things a bit far. I wonder if seeing Obito's facial expression at the time would help? Or maybe it's more complex, like Obito is examining his own lost "Will of Fire" within Naruto? And of course, Obito's personal "Hashirama" was always Kakashi, and Naruto has inherited a lot of Kakashi's principles (some of which came from Obito).

    I suppose since Obito is discussing the ideological conflict that culminated with the battle between his mentor/adoptive identity, Madara, and Hashirama (whose ideals run strongly in Naruto/Konoha), it IS a bit personal for Obito... after all, the man calls himself Madara and wears a mask 24/7, and refuses to acknowledge his own identity...

    Maybe I'm trying to read too much into Kishi's cheap tactics, trying to justify the Obito angle in my head and defend the many misdirections. However, It can be fun to re read chapters in hindsight, thinking of what Tobi's statements would mean coming from Obito, not Madara.
    In a world where animals can talk (or some ninja can freely communicate with them), a world of body switching, mind reading, a world where a roadside stone, puddle or tree, heck even your own backpack or weapon or even inside your own body and cells, lies or is an enemy spy ninja, you just don't and I mean DON'T reveal your secrets in public or even in private.You have to keep up your act thoroughly, without even giving a slightest hint, because people like Minato or Kakashi might just uncover your secrets at the spot.

    Showing his face to Kisame was an extremely risky act and if Kisame was any other person, Tobi's identity would have already been out at the time of Kisame's capture.

    It is likely that Madara showed some of his memories in the dream world, similar to how Itachi showed them to Sasuke (how they did it with 3rd person view ? Don't ask me). Seeing as Obito have copied the Spiral Zetsu's body movements (probably because his Sharingan was always active thanks to Hashirama cells ?), it wouldn't be strange if he was able to copy other things from Madara's memories as well.



  3. #63
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    @Famous,

    The best explanation for Obito that I have is that his time spent in the cave with Madara coupled with him seeing Kakashi killing Rin drove him over the Sanity edge.

    The guy suffered a mental break down and a multiple personality disorder where he actually started to believe that he was indeed the real Madara. I think that this spin would work nicely, otherwise there is no reason for him to hate Senjus (Rin was probably a Senju), and all the unlikely and improbable "lies" he told would make no sense either.

    @Pow,

    You are probably correct on Kishimoto, but just as people sit around and critically discuss other great literary works like "War and Peace" by Tolstoy, or "Romeo and Juliet" by Shakespare, we too may discuss "Naruto" by Masashi Kishimoto. It doesn't diminish our overall appreciation for Kishimoto.

    I happen to think that Kishi has Revised his plans for the ending of the Manga, and some of the seeming awkwardness reflects the revisions. Note... I have never claimed to be infallible, so I could be wrong. That's just how it looks to me today, for now at least.

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  4. #64
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    @Famous,

    The best explanation for Obito that I have is that his time spent in the cave with Madara coupled with him seeing Kakashi killing Rin drove him over the Sanity edge.

    The guy suffered a mental break down and a multiple personality disorder where he actually started to believe that he was indeed the real Madara. I think that this spin would work nicely, otherwise there is no reason for him to hate Senjus (Rin was probably a Senju), and all the unlikely and improbable "lies" he told would make no sense either.
    No, it's not like that, because now that his mission has ended (to pose as Madara until his revival and use that name throw the world into turmoil in order to easily obtain the bijuu - worked), he no longer acts like him or refers to himself as Madara. He clearly has his own distinctive personality and quite often bickers with Madara, frequently opposing his demands.

    There was no way for Obito to have any heavy mentality disorder, since right after the moment something quite shocking and world breaking happened to him, he already had something to focus on, a plan, a mission, he entirely devoted himself to it. Of course there was a short moment at the beginning, but all that steam was already blown away by his rampage, so he is fine on the mind, to the point that he can easily manipulate people with mind tricks and pretension techniques.

    He did try to reaffirm his ideas and believes with Naruto (likely to strengthen his own will), but even without it he can still move on with his plan.

    Obito was quite sane for the most part and he never believed to be Madara, as it was seen that in private, his confidant - Black Zetsu, called him Tobi and he was OK with it (someone that would believe to be Madara would not accept another name/to be called differently).



  5. #65
    Yesss... Rlinfamous's Avatar
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    I guess the Sharingan is a mental disorder once it starts imbalancing negative emotions in the user, for what that's worth. I still think Obito has good enough personal reasons to oppose the optimism the Senju stand for, even if he doesn't hate them like Madara does.
    And yeah, it wouldn't surprise me if Obito saw some of Madara's memories in a Genjutsu. Hell, Black Zetsu might contain some memories, since he's made from Madara's mental energies and is capable of recording events such as Sasuke's fight with Itachi (and revealing the events to Obito somehow, as Obito said he'd watch them later).

  6. #66
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    This flashback really hasn't revealed much yet, I am a bit disappointed I was really hoping for a lot more details. We now know that Hashirama and Madara were once friends but we really haven't seen much to explain Madara's motives or the origin of Hashirama's power. I get that Madara was angry that his entire family died but Madara had the chance to end the fighting long before he lost his brother. After Madara became the head of the Uchiha he could have easily ended the conflict, he seemed to agree that it was a good idea when he was young so what was it that made him so adamant about perusing war?

    I was really hoping this flash back would reveal the origins of Hashirama's power but no such luck. I really hope that Kishimoto has a good explanation for why Hashirama is so overpowered and why he has abilities that no one else does. We have seen how almost every other character has obtained their powers but in the case of Hashirama the source of his power has not been explained at all.

  7. #67
    Senior Member Nano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    No, it's not like that, because now that his mission has ended (to pose as Madara until his revival and use that name throw the world into turmoil in order to easily obtain the bijuu - worked), he no longer acts like him or refers to himself as Madara. He clearly has his own distinctive personality and quite often bickers with Madara, frequently opposing his demands.

    There was no way for Obito to have any heavy mentality disorder, since right after the moment something quite shocking and world breaking happened to him, he already had something to focus on, a plan, a mission, he entirely devoted himself to it. Of course there was a short moment at the beginning, but all that steam was already blown away by his rampage, so he is fine on the mind, to the point that he can easily manipulate people with mind tricks and pretension techniques.

    He did try to reaffirm his ideas and believes with Naruto (likely to strengthen his own will), but even without it he can still move on with his plan.

    Obito was quite sane for the most part and he never believed to be Madara, as it was seen that in private, his confidant - Black Zetsu, called him Tobi and he was OK with it (someone that would believe to be Madara would not accept another name/to be called differently).
    You are missing one major ingredient: Half of Obito is the Zetsu clone that would carry alot of Madaras memories, as it could have been with him for a long time prior to obito showing up. In the chapter when Madara first joined the fight against Naruto and Co. and he said something along the lines of "oh its you, you must have a plan then" and we all questioned how he could say that to Obito - knowing him as little as he does, but if you look at the panel prior http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/601/13 It is the Zetsu he is talking to (shown by the highlighted healing of the RHS of the body) - Not Obito. So he has faith in that version that he will act accordingly. So they obviously have a history that could explain some of the inconsistancies with Obito. Sometimes it was Obito trying to make sense of it and others it was the Zetsu clone laying the groundwork for the real Madaras return.
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  8. #68
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rlinfamous View Post
    I guess the Sharingan is a mental disorder once it starts imbalancing negative emotions in the user, for what that's worth. I still think Obito has good enough personal reasons to oppose the optimism the Senju stand for, even if he doesn't hate them like Madara does.
    And yeah, it wouldn't surprise me if Obito saw some of Madara's memories in a Genjutsu. Hell, Black Zetsu might contain some memories, since he's made from Madara's mental energies and is capable of recording events such as Sasuke's fight with Itachi (and revealing the events to Obito somehow, as Obito said he'd watch them later).
    Quote Originally Posted by artifice View Post
    This flashback really hasn't revealed much yet, I am a bit disappointed I was really hoping for a lot more details. We now know that Hashirama and Madara were once friends but we really haven't seen much to explain Madara's motives or the origin of Hashirama's power. I get that Madara was angry that his entire family died but Madara had the chance to end the fighting long before he lost his brother. After Madara became the head of the Uchiha he could have easily ended the conflict, he seemed to agree that it was a good idea when he was young so what was it that made him so adamant about perusing war?

    I was really hoping this flash back would reveal the origins of Hashirama's power but no such luck. I really hope that Kishimoto has a good explanation for why Hashirama is so overpowered and why he has abilities that no one else does. We have seen how almost every other character has obtained their powers but in the case of Hashirama the source of his power has not been explained at all.
    The Sharingan itself doesn't influence that much, since Madara, with already awakened Sharingan, was agreeing with Hashirama's ideas. Him showing it to his family, was more of a statement that they no longer can dream about/create that world, since their families are too far apart (yet they have the same origin ).

    From what I understood, it was the awakening of MS, that gave Madara enough power to become the clan head. The MS might have some effect on the user's mind, still it doesn't take him over completely. When Hashirama proposed a truce at Izuna's last fight, Madara was considering it, perhaps he would even agree to it if it wasn't for his brothers words of mistrust and dissent (the Databook mentions that he loved peace, yet he was the one that was fueling the conflict, by denying the truce and giving additional power to Madara along with additional reason to prolong the hate and fight between the two clans, then again, he was an Uchiha that knew Tobirama the most, so I guess he had a point in not trusting them ).

    In this chapter, Hashirama mentions that Izuna's death and EMS was what drastically changed Madara's personality. Interesting enough, after using all of his chakra and power, Madara would accept a peaceful death if it was from Hashirama. It's like the effects of EMS and that peculiar chakra have lessened, seeing as they were no longer active and circulating in his brain. Madara was even able to accept the terms, with a single sacrifice from the Senju. That is something that the current, or even the one that was fighting at Vote wouldn't accept or even propose.


    After learning some more about Tobirama, I'm actually wondering what would he do, if it was Uchiha Kagami that proposed to be the decoy and not Hiruzen ? It would probably end like this: "...alright, thank you for your noble sacrifice." and on the sdie/in his mind "your name will be forgotten, since I can't boost the village's opinion about Uchiha, so good bye sucker muhahaha", then" alright,everyone beside Kagami, we are going back !".

    Hiruzen giving a tittle of a hero (among other people, but still) to an Uchiha seems like quite some nice act compared to what Tobirama was doing .



  9. #69
    Yesss... Rlinfamous's Avatar
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    Tobirama probably wouldn't trust Kagami to sacrifice himself, and would expect betrayal. He'd be like, "A likely alliance between the Uchiha Andy the Cloud's assassins... it's just like one to keep such company."

  10. #70
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    I think that the answer we are searching for is that Obito was influenced by the Zetsu that bonded to him, by the trauma of seeing Rin die, and by the awakening of his MS. The dergree and extend of imballance in him would then vary up and down over time.

    To my mind there was no need for him to Kill the Uchihas ( he had no grudge against them as he claimed to Sasuke, the grudge was Madara's and not his). He also had no reason to tell Konan whom he was killing (without witnesses), that he was Madara, and he had no call to say that he had waited very long for the moment when he released the fox from Kushina, that would be Madara's line, not Obito's.

    Just as scholars sit down and discuss literary masterpieces, I think it's legitimate to discus the issues in Naruto too. I would like to see Kishimoto to expressly say in the Manga something to the effect that Obito was influenced by and sometimes, but not always, somewhat confused into a personality or Identity disconnected state, by the mental stresses he experienced, magnified by the Memories of the Zetsu he absorbed and the "Evil" Chakra of his MS. I think that such a statement would do much for the legacy of this great work of literary genius.

    I am not perfect and I defy you to prove otherwise
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