View Poll Results: How was the chapter?

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  • SS arc (5/5)

    11 68.75%
  • TBTP flashbacks (4/5)

    3 18.75%
  • Any scene with Urahara (3/5)

    2 12.50%
  • Aizen standing still for 2 yrs (2/5)

    0 0%
  • Foolbringers arc (1/5)

    0 0%
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  1. #51
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SquadZero View Post
    Yes but each time we had seen Ichigo's hollow, it had gotten stronger and it's form had changed. But also notice that Ichigo's hollow also always had hands. This hollow seems to be a pure hollow without any human "traits"(swords instead of hands) but only human in stature leading me to believe this is the first true "pure" VL we have seen yet in the series. Ichigo's inner hollow had human traits probably because of the connection it shared to Ichigo's shinigami power which made it more of a "natural" arrancar in my opinion.
    Technically, that thing is a Hollowified Hollow, which might actually mean that it is already something beyond VL, but not yet an Arrancar (though it might have been originally an Adjuchas before Aizen's tempering, so calling it VL might be wrong, seeing as it gained partial Shinigami traits thanks to incomplete Hollowification). It is one of the incomplete Arrancars, that Ishin mentioned to have met/knew about in the past, while comparing it with a completed Arrancar Grand Fisher.

    IIRC correctly, an Adjuchas class Arrancar is already far stronger than a VL. Of course it is weaker than an VL class Arrancar.

    Basically, while Fullbringers were infected by Hollows (Vizard's boundary was simply broken), Ichigo have likely been infected by this Hollowified Hollow - Incomplete Arrancar, which means that this hollow already had traits of both, Shinigami and Hollow. It explains why Ichigo was the only one that could use a Hollow Mask in Bankai and as well why his complete hollow, H2Ichigo, is not only compatible, but capable of even better utilizing a Zanpakutou, than it's original owner.

    The instability of the hollow-arrancar that infected Ichigo, was quite likely the reason why Ichigo could revert back from complete Hollow with a Zanpakutou, to his previous state, a Shinigami with Hollow powers. It is instable, thus it could stand one foot at Shinigami or Hollow side, while the other one remaining on the line.

    Of course there is still FGT, that incorporates every mastered power of Ichigo (you can notice it was incomplete at the fight against Aizen, because there were still some powers that Ichigo haven't touched upon), that actually allows to fully and perhaps perfectly utilize all of which made is Ichigo.



  2. #52
    Senior Member SquadZero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    Technically, that thing is a Hollowified Hollow, which might actually mean that it is already something beyond VL, but not yet an Arrancar (though it might have been originally an Adjuchas before Aizen's tempering, so calling it VL might be wrong, seeing as it gained partial Shinigami traits thanks to incomplete Hollowification). It is one of the incomplete Arrancars, that Ishin mentioned to have met/knew about in the past, while comparing it with a completed Arrancar Grand Fisher.
    While it may be a partial shinigamified hollow(hollowfied hollow seems retarded I'm sorry, IDK if that's a xlation mess up or Kubo brain fart but whatever) it undoubtedly has to be of a VL level. Judging by the only descriptions we have been given which were that VLs were humanoid in stature and appearance and were stronger than normal captain class shinigami. The completed arrancars we have seen that were adjuchas or gillian had releases whose forms were not humanoid in appearance/size and were able to be handled by vice-captain level shinigami. We are probably about to see this hollow pretty much mess up Isshin, who should be one of the stronger captain class shinigami if what we see of him later is any indication. Another thing is how easily Ichigo's hollow form wiped the floor with Ulquiorra, granted that was definitely an arrancar form hollow but then again Ulquiorra was in his second release. There is no way you would be able to convince me that any Adjuchas class arrancar would ever be able to so easily handle Ulquiorra like that. So anyway, my take is that this thing is definitely a VL... pure or partially shinigamified is still up for debate though you may be right on that point.

    IIRC correctly, an Adjuchas class Arrancar is already far stronger than a VL. Of course it is weaker than an VL class Arrancar.
    To my recollection this has been neither said nor even hinted at in the manga. I may be wrong and if so I'd like to see it, but I personally doubt that this statement is true.

    Basically, while Fullbringers were infected by Hollows (Vizard's boundary was simply broken), Ichigo have likely been infected by this Hollowified Hollow - Incomplete Arrancar, which means that this hollow already had traits of both, Shinigami and Hollow. It explains why Ichigo was the only one that could use a Hollow Mask in Bankai and as well why his complete hollow, H2Ichigo, is not only compatible, but capable of even better utilizing a Zanpakutou, than it's original owner.

    The instability of the hollow-arrancar that infected Ichigo, was quite likely the reason why Ichigo could revert back from complete Hollow with a Zanpakutou, to his previous state, a Shinigami with Hollow powers. It is instable, thus it could stand one foot at Shinigami or Hollow side, while the other one remaining on the line.
    This idea makes a lot of sense and does make me reconsider that the hollow shown could indeed be partially shinigamified.

  3. #53
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    I think it's worthwhile watching Ichigo Materialise Zangetsu for the first time.





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  4. #54
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SquadZero View Post
    While it may be a partial shinigamified hollow(hollowfied hollow seems retarded I'm sorry, IDK if that's a xlation mess up or Kubo brain fart but whatever) it undoubtedly has to be of a VL level. Judging by the only descriptions we have been given which were that VLs were humanoid in stature and appearance and were stronger than normal captain class shinigami. The completed arrancars we have seen that were adjuchas or gillian had releases whose forms were not humanoid in appearance/size and were able to be handled by vice-captain level shinigami. We are probably about to see this hollow pretty much mess up Isshin, who should be one of the stronger captain class shinigami if what we see of him later is any indication. Another thing is how easily Ichigo's hollow form wiped the floor with Ulquiorra, granted that was definitely an arrancar form hollow but then again Ulquiorra was in his second release. There is no way you would be able to convince me that any Adjuchas class arrancar would ever be able to so easily handle Ulquiorra like that. So anyway, my take is that this thing is definitely a VL... pure or partially shinigamified is still up for debate though you may be right on that point.



    To my recollection this has been neither said nor even hinted at in the manga. I may be wrong and if so I'd like to see it, but I personally doubt that this statement is true.



    This idea makes a lot of sense and does make me reconsider that the hollow shown could indeed be partially shinigamified.
    There seems to be some kind of misunderstanding. Hollowfication is not a process of turning someone/something to a Hollow, but a process of leveling/blurring the boundaries between a Hollow part (that anyone has potentially access to) and other. Hollows were once Human Spirits, which held innate potential to take many forms, including Hollow and Shinigami. This means that Shinigami themselves have retained that potential even if they were born as Shinigami (most likely the first Shinigami were Human Spirits before they became one).

    Grimjow was an Adjuchas class hollow, yet his release was very VL-like. After transformation he retained many of human characteristics, even though he was a complete animal as a Hollow. It's quite possible that this Hollow looked more like the form Ichigo took when training with Vizards, but after the Hollowification process, he gained partial human traits.

    Let's not forget that from simply removing his mask, GrandFisher gained human characteristics, without using anything to stimulate the boundary interference:
    Spoiler!
    Perhaps this one has a broken part as well ?

    It's worth mentioning that all Adjuchas and above have regained a sense of self, while the moment that Ichigo became a full hollow... well he was far from being sane, neither did he seem to display a higher level of intelligence, thought it was able to mutter a word or two, but other than that, it was no different than a beast, which only the Gilliam subclass of Menos Grande and a few of the normal class tend to behave like. Of course it's quite likely that it was like that, because in this case Hichigo was merely a representation of some portion of Ichigo's being and wasn't fully him (it's possible that if he was to truly take over his host, it would behave more like it did at the fight against Byakuya).

    It's worth noting that this Hollow doesn't behave like normal Hollows, it doesn't target those with high spiritual pressure, but specifically Shinigami. This might mean a few things, like:
    - it has a grudge against Shinigami, which would make it a normal hollow of a former Quincy, seeing as Adjuchas and above level hollows have no longer memories of their past (they are agglomeration of 1000 of 1000 souls after all), unless it attacks Shinigami because of what Aizen, a Shinigami, did;
    - it is under command of Aizen, but that doesn't really seem the case, it's seems that it was merely pointed to that location, rather than given specific orders, beside something that took down Ishin, would be able to take down Aizen as well (unless he used his magical sword);
    - it targets Shinigami for the sole pleasure of hunting.

    We need to remember that VL are highly evolved beings by themselves, they do not need to eat, drink, fight, they tend to seclude themselves in the deeps of HM. It would be strange for VL to randomly attack Shinigami in the ER, unless it is forced, like Espeda, or has other reasons.


    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    I think it's worthwhile watching Ichigo Materialise Zangetsu for the first time.
    Yep, a Zanpakutou at best can only decline a person't plee for help/aid/cooperation, or hinder his performance, they can't take over a person and control it like a pupet, which means that it was in fact Hichigo that momentarily took control over Ichigo. Quite likely, it wasn't the first time, assuming that it really wasn't Grandfisher that killed Masaki.



    The Kurusoki bloodline quite likely has a special characteristic (every member of the SR seem to have as well). Seeing as Uryu has no Quincy Battle Experience Soul Memory thing, passed from his Quincy parent like Ichigo, it is quite likely it. This explains why Masaki, seeminlgy without any real training, was powerful enough to take down something that a Captain-class Shinigami couldn't. If all of her techniques were passed to her through Soul Memory by someone like Bach, then it's no surprise at all.
    Last edited by Zero; 03-16-2013 at 08:24 PM.



  5. #55
    Senior Member SquadZero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    There seems to be some kind of misunderstanding. Hollowfication is not a process of turning someone/something to a Hollow, but a process of leveling/blurring the boundaries between a Hollow part (that anyone has potentially access to) and other. Hollows were once Human Spirits, which held innate potential to take many forms, including Hollow and Shinigami. This means that Shinigami themselves have retained that potential even if they were born as Shinigami (most likely the first Shinigami were Human Spirits before they became one).
    Oh I understand the terminology involved here. My bone is that whomever chose the terminology, be it Kubo or translators should have used a better term, something more neutral or just plain shinigamifying when it is used on hollows. I have explained it before as being like two ends of a spectrum and the process sort of moves a person along the spectrum. So going one way towards being a hollow would be hollowfication while going the other way, like hollows do, would be shinigamification. I am aware that the process does not actually happen that way, it is more of a tearing down of a barrier, but for the sake of classification it would make more sense this way.

    Grimjow was an Adjuchas class hollow, yet his release was very VL-like. After transformation he retained many of human characteristics, even though he was a complete animal as a Hollow. It's quite possible that this Hollow looked more like the form Ichigo took when training with Vizards, but after the Hollowification process, he gained partial human traits.
    Again, we have no solid proof that Grimjow was in fact still an adjuchas when he was turned into an arrancar. I tend to believe that he was if not a true VL then pretty damned close when he was turned into an arrancar soley BECAUSE of his released form. I would venture to say it is a good bet that from Grimmjow on up in the espada were VL class hollows/arrancars also because of their released states and the power they wielded. I thought I remembered an interview or something done with Kubo where he said something to the effect of that there were definitely VL class hollows among the espada. I could be misremembering but I believe that was the case.

    Let's not forget that from simply removing his mask, GrandFisher gained human characteristics, without using anything to stimulate the boundary interference:
    Spoiler!
    Perhaps this one has a broken part as well ?
    Yes, Grand Fisher did have a human like appearance so far as he had a humanish type face and two arms and two legs, but he definitely was not human sized in stature nor was he especially powerful. It seems to me that the more compact a hollow's true form the stronger they are, sort of like Ichigo's zangetsu... which may reflect the hollow influence on his own power.

    It's worth mentioning that all Adjuchas and above have regained a sense of self, while the moment that Ichigo became a full hollow... well he was far from being sane, neither did he seem to display a higher level of intelligence, thought it was able to mutter a word or two, but other than that, it was no different than a beast, which only the Gilliam subclass of Menos Grande and a few of the normal class tend to behave like. Of course it's quite likely that it was like that, because in this case Hichigo was merely a representation of some portion of Ichigo's being and wasn't fully him (it's possible that if he was to truly take over his host, it would behave more like it did at the fight against Byakuya).
    Yeah that time where Ichigo's was in full hollow mode, I don't think you could really say that Ichigo's hollow actually took over. As you said it would have behaved more like in the fight with Byakuya. It seemed more like his own power took over and was just running on Ichigo's instinct which was to kill the MF'er standing in front of him and to protect Orihime.

    It's worth noting that this Hollow doesn't behave like normal Hollows, it doesn't target those with high spiritual pressure, but specifically Shinigami. This might mean a few things, like:
    - it has a grudge against Shinigami, which would make it a normal hollow of a former Quincy, seeing as Adjuchas and above level hollows have no longer memories of their past (they are agglomeration of 1000 of 1000 souls after all), unless it attacks Shinigami because of what Aizen, a Shinigami, did;
    - it is under command of Aizen, but that doesn't really seem the case, it's seems that it was merely pointed to that location, rather than given specific orders, beside something that took down Ishin, would be able to take down Aizen as well (unless he used his magical sword);
    - it targets Shinigami for the sole pleasure of hunting.

    We need to remember that VL are highly evolved beings by themselves, they do not need to eat, drink, fight, they tend to seclude themselves in the deeps of HM. It would be strange for VL to randomly attack Shinigami in the ER, unless it is forced, like Espeda, or has other reasons.
    Yeah we still don't know enough about this particular hollow to take a good stab at what it's motiviations are, but those guesses are as good as anything else. It would explain some of it's peculiarities at least.

  6. #56
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    Anyway, the Hollow inside Ichigo is certainly at least an imperfect Arrancar, after all it uses a Black Getsuge (it is the Hollow's technique), which is very similar to the Black Cero that only high level Arrancars can use, as mentioned by Ulq.

    Speaking of Ulq, while rereading, I noticed that he said that he is the only one that "reached" and not "has" the second level of release (http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...1-page-10.html), which means that all Arrancars have potential to achieve it (so it seems that it's not that he split his power in more than one stage, but that he really achieved something more than the rest). It's good to know that Grimjow has or will get a power up like that. After achieving the second form, Ulq is again even less human, so perhaps that Hollow that Ishin is facing, might be something closer to it, or even almost the same in terms of power as H2Ichigo. Maybe the power input of the Second Stage Arrancar, is what truly released Ichigo's Second Hollow Form, seeing as after the first one, from an unreleased stage, his Hollow power did grow noticeably. This would fit with the first contact with a Hollow (Grandfisher) awakening and wounding Masaki (IIRC, Ichigo doesn't quite remember that moment, in similar to how he didn't remember when he fought Ulq in H2 form and it was raining that day...). Funny enough, it seems that H2Ichigo threw a sword at Uryu not because he tried to stop (he didn't mind much), but rather that he was screaming "Kurosaki" to him...



    Hmmmm, I'm starting to wonder if Hashvald is truly so powerful to brake a condensed and sturdy bankai as that of Ichigo's with easy, or did he pointed it at a crack that was already there ? The place that Ichigo's Bankai was cut, is the same that True Zangetsu cut it in (two pages):
    Spoiler!

    It's possible that point of the sword, after the inner battle Ichigo had, have became the weakest point, which Haschvald took advantage of. After all, Uryu's Heavenly Arrows are so impressive, because they can destroy Bankais even without using the Blood Attacker, while Oppie after going Complete & Fusion mode, couldn't even scratch Ichigo's, though he seemingly couldn't utilize the Blood Attacker because of Ichigo's speed. The Quincy are afraid/vary of Bankai, since it has the power to overpower as well as withstand the Blood Arts.

    Speaking of Ichigo's Bankai, it's worth nothing the significance of it's chain, seeing as since the time of the Time Tunnel Training, it represents Zangetsu's power level (his sword does become able to blow mountains later on). You can notice that after the TTT, it's so long that it has to be warped around his arm (it's power is at a whole other dimension, even stronger than at the time that H2Ichigo was using it) yet before it was quite short. After regaining his power, his chain is quite long (longer than the hilt), to the point that it swings loosely on the wind and is seemingly connecting the guard with the hilt. The moment that Ichigo comes to face Baah, the chain is a little more than half of the hilt, no longer connected to the guard (unless there was a drawing/redrawing error and the chain fades into the black color of Ichigo's clothes). Then the moment it is cut in half and after that, the chain disappears, or is simply off-panel after that, but then again, at the moment of the cut, it should be visible seeing as the white part of his clothes were it's background then. In some pages, after entering H2From the chain is longer than the hilt. It's possible that Kubo is just sloppy and constantly changes it's length or even forgets to add it .

    Interesting enough is that the point end of Ichigo's current bankai (and shikai), is near identical to that of Baah's sword (compare it with the picture above):
    Spoiler!


    It's possible that Ichigo's weapons is the same as those of the current Quincy and it simply gained additional Zan-like characteristic from his Shinigami parent (like release states; technicaly, the swords of Arrancars as also like that, while not being true Zans). Then again, Quincy powers seem to be rather displayed through their bodies, rather than their weapons, thought there are those like that as well, for example As Nod and his fear imbuing thorns.



    I wonder if Ichigo will start wearing some symbols on his clothes, like the Bleach manga logo, the Quincy symbol, the Shiba symbol, or even all fused into one ?



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