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  1. #31
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    Some more thoughts on Hashirama:-

    We have seen 4 types of sage mode so far. The Toads, Juugo's Clan's, The Sankes/dragon style, and then Hashirama's. I can't say for certain how the Snake/dragon style works, whether or not it permits the user to continuously gather Natural Energy while moving.

    Where I am going is this, we cannot discount the importance of Hashirama's genes/cells in his Mokuton and life force abilities. As examples, Hashirama's cells allow a none Uchiha to use the Sharingan as well as or even better than an Uchiha, and Hashirama's cells can tranform a Superior Sharingan (EMS) into a Rinnegan.

    So even if Hashirama uses Natural energy, he too like Juugo may have some genetically endowed affinity to gathering Natural Energy, that's why his cells can do all kinds or wonders (LOL).

    As I see it there are two options:

    1) Either Hashirama's Cells allow him to gather Insanely Vast amounts of Natural energy without turning into stone, or transforming into monster like features like Juugo and Kabuto. Hashirama remains physically and mentally unchanged, except for the markings on his face. This could mean that his body is able to use Natural Energy naturally and directly, Just like the Juubi.

    2) Hashirama's Chakra Reserves are Beastly, and so incredibly great, and can balance out any amount of Natural Energy without ever falling behind, while his body cells automatically gather the Natural Energy and balance it with his Chakra, without him having to concentrate on it. In other words, because of his genes the process of assimilating natural energy is automatic.

    The one thing I am not sure about is whether Hashirama had to learn the Mokuton Technique, or whether his body does it naturally and automatically. I am almost convinced he does it automatically since it seems to manifest with everybody who has ever stolen or used his cells. However, like Mutants in the X-Men, Mokuton probably didn't kick in until he was at the age of puberty.
    Last edited by paulbee; 03-11-2013 at 02:22 PM.

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  2. #32
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    ^ If something Hashirama's cells draws less NE than Jyugo's, seeing is as the CS being only a little portion of Jyugo's allows for full body changes and most of the time forced transformations additional with going crazy.

    The other reason for Hashirama's body not ending up deformed and transformed unless he goes full out, might be because just as the NE enters his body, he sends it out again into to the world/tress, in short rather than a receiver (like all other SM users) he might be a transmitter. Rather than absorbing NE and mixing it with his chakra to make more powerful jutsu, he let it goes through him while additionally giving out his Life Force, to augment everything around him and then, controlling it with his chakra. Like this, only for a really and I mean really Colossal Jutsu he would need to enter Sage Mode so that his chakra would be strong enough to control environment on a such imaginable scale.



  3. #33
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    ^ If something Hashirama's cells draws less NE than Jyugo's, seeing is as the CS being only a little portion of Jyugo's allows for full body changes and most of the time forced transformations additional with going crazy.

    The other reason for Hashirama's body not ending up deformed and transformed unless he goes full out, might be because just as the NE enters his body, he sends it out again into to the world/tress, in short rather than a receiver (like all other SM users) he might be a transmitter. Rather than absorbing NE and mixing it with his chakra to make more powerful jutsu, he let it goes through him while additionally giving out his Life Force, to augment everything around him and then, controlling it with his chakra. Like this, only for a really and I mean really Colossal Jutsu he would need to enter Sage Mode so that his chakra would be strong enough to control environment on a such imaginable scale.
    Zero,

    1) I just think that Hashirama's DNA is Just more compatible with NE than Juugo's clan.

    2) I also do think that Hshirama could possibly channel NE through his body without storing it, but I am not convinced that this is something he does all the time. I suppose that the transmission of Natural energy into an inanimate object Could BE how Kabuto cause the Stalactites in the cave to grow and impale Itachi during his fight with Itachi and Sasuke.

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  4. #34
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    Zero,

    1) I just think that Hashirama's DNA is Just more compatible with NE than Juugo's clan.

    2) I also do think that Hshirama could possibly channel NE through his body without storing it, but I am not convinced that this is something he does all the time. I suppose that the transmission of Natural energy into an inanimate object Could BE how Kabuto cause the Stalactites in the cave to grow and impale Itachi during his fight with Itachi and Sasuke.
    It would be rather strange that people from a clan capable of drawing NE naturally, would have less compatibility with NE than a single person from a clan that has no traits like that. Then again, who said that Hashirama's mother wasn't from Jyugoo's clan ? Technically we don't know much about Senju anyway, so who knows, maybe they had such traits, but lost them at some point in time ? Tobirama's tracking abilities might be closer to Naruto's in Sage Mode more than we think.

    Anyway, Yamato/Tenzou did explain that the kekkei genkai, Mokutoun, is a combination of Water and Earth element. It's just that Hashirama had simply more than just Mokutoun and that's why everyone is after his cells and not Yamato's. It rather seems that he had that kekkei genkai simply being multiplied by the power of nature and well, that's how CS and SM works, it greatly enhances the user, including his kekkei genkai (the CS2 users from part one are a great example of that).

    Of course, it's possible that SM is what awakened Mokutoun within Hashirama. After all, Fukusaku did say that SM activates/awakens the body in an incalculable ways. If there was a sleeping potential within the clan, then it wouldn't be strange that interaction with NE have awakened it.



  5. #35
    Yesss... Rlinfamous's Avatar
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    It seemed to me that, during his battle with Madara, Hashirama took a moment to gather Natural Energy. I don't think he passively gathers it in the same way Juugo's clan does. For what it's worth, Kabuto's Snake Sage Mode was only capable of this because he implemented Juugo's cells (and then had the skill/discipline to control Natural Energy, and still came out with added snake-like features).

    I agree that Hashirama's beastly chakra reserves allow him to gather/hold more Natural Energy. That's exactly how it works; the amount held must be balanced with one's own chakra, meaning it's a question of ratios. Hashirama has displayed far greater jutsu than Sage Mode Naruto, even outside of his own Sage Mode... to me, this suggests Base Hashirama has more chakra than Sage Mode Naruto (and Base Naruto is already one of the highest-stamina characters in the series, with Sage Naruto beating just about all besides Jinchuuriki, so Hashirama is incredible).

    However, in Hashirama's case, I think he's able to use his Mokuton to feed nature itself his own chakra/Life Force, basically pulling off a Reverse Sage Mode. Think of it as nature entering Hashirama Mode. He creates a living tree, which grows according to his chakra, but is part of nature, and possesses its own Natural Energy. This is evidenced by Orochimaru being able to use his Sage Mode to sense the Zetsu spores (made of Mokuton) clinging to Sasuke's body, while Sasuke himself couldn't see their chakra; they're still noticeable to a Sage, but seemingly no one else. None of the sensor types at the Kage Summit noticed the Zetsu spores, either.

    Spoiler!


    Zetsu seems to embody the connection between Hashirama and Nature... he can meld himself entirely into it. Likewise, Hashirama would share the power Edo Madara/Yamato/Zetsu all displayed, with which they can meld their bodies into the terrain. Yamato even displayed some of Hashirama's healing powers against Sasuke when he closed up his wound with Mokuton (and in doing so healed his wounds)... Hashirama can grow new body for himself. He IS the Mokuton.

    Spoiler!


    It's probably why Hashirama's cells are so valuable to transplant... they have a life of their own and can grow like a plant, even though they're human genes. They share both properties with no drawbacks other than being difficult to control. When Danzou ran out of chakra, his Hashirama cells burst into a giant tree.

  6. #36
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    @Famous,

    I do like your reasoning indeed, but.... You have to wonder why Hasirama's Cells are so miraculous on their own without assistance from Natural energy given that none of his relatives or offspring were similarly blessed.

    I'm not saying it's impossible, just saying that it's highly unusual. Madara even Remarked as to how Tsunade did not have Hashirama's powers.

    I do hope that Kishimoto does not gloss over these questions regarding hashirama, and I hope he answers all the mysteries.

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  7. #37
    Senior Member Shinhan's Avatar
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    Mokuton is a kekkie genkai that is in the dna fibers of Hashirama. It has nothing to do with his sage abilities. His sage abilities likely increase hjs mokuton, but it likely increases every aspect of his abilities. Sage mode is a technique that is learned and can theoretically be learned by anyone. If mokuton was in any way connected to sage arts it would not be in Hashiramas Dna. It is shown in the manga that Mokuton is connected to Hashirmas very cells. If this was not true than a clone of Hashirama like Yamato would not be endowed with the Mokuton ability. Yamato has no signs of sage training, sage training would not be passed down through dna, yet Yamato being augmented with only Hashiramas dna has given him access to the bloodline trait. There have been other examples as well, like zetsu, but i think yamato is proof enough.

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  8. #38
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shinhan View Post
    Mokuton is a kekkie genkai that is in the dna fibers of Hashirama. It has nothing to do with his sage abilities. His sage abilities likely increase hjs mokuton, but it likely increases every aspect of his abilities. Sage mode is a technique that is learned and can theoretically be learned by anyone. If mokuton was in any way connected to sage arts it would not be in Hashiramas Dna. It is shown in the manga that Mokuton is connected to Hashirmas very cells. If this was not true than a clone of Hashirama like Yamato would not be endowed with the Mokuton ability. Yamato has no signs of sage training, sage training would not be passed down through dna, yet Yamato being augmented with only Hashiramas dna has given him access to the bloodline trait. There have been other examples as well, like zetsu, but i think yamato is proof enough.
    Everything you said is true. However, what I'm speculating about is not Sage Mode, but use of Natural Energy by Hashirama's cells, similar to how Juugo's Clan can utilise Natural Energy without going into Sage Mode. And the reason for the speculation is that Mokuton appears to be a very Nature oriented ability.

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  9. #39
    Yesss... Rlinfamous's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    Everything you said is true. However, what I'm speculating about is not Sage Mode, but use of Natural Energy by Hashirama's cells, similar to how Juugo's Clan can utilise Natural Energy without going into Sage Mode. And the reason for the speculation is that Mokuton appears to be a very Nature oriented ability.
    I suppose if Hashirama's own body is essentially the same as his Mokuton (in the same way that Yamato can heal his wounds with Mokuton, or Zetsu parts can be transplanted onto human bodies, etc), then Hashirama might passively generate Natural Energy like a plant (and also his own Senju power). I can't wait to find out more about the Senju clan's "Rikudou Body." Tobirama himself appears to have very formidable chakra, more threatening than anyone else we've seen aside from Hashirama and Chakra Mode Naruto. However, Hashirama is on a whole different level.

  10. #40
    Senior Member Nano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    Everything you said is true. However, what I'm speculating about is not Sage Mode, but use of Natural Energy by Hashirama's cells, similar to how Juugo's Clan can utilise Natural Energy without going into Sage Mode. And the reason for the speculation is that Mokuton appears to be a very Nature oriented ability.
    But aren't Juugo's transformations his version of sage mode? When he was introduced it was explained that he drew in NE until he could no longer suppress it and his violet outbursts and transformations were the manifestation of that NE gathering. So technically you could say the transformations were his sage mode.
    Quote Originally Posted by [JUiCE] View Post
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