Naruto 622 Discussion / 623 Predictions

[Rlinfamous]

If killing each other for their eyes to activate ms/ems was part of their tradition, why is it that only very few people where able to activate ms? can't think of an explanation

Yeah, I believe Madara and Izuna were said to be the first to awaken the MS, too, which is the main reason Madara became clan leader. Also, I believe that Kishi's purpose in showing that Madara/Hashirama lost many brothers to war is to draw a link between them and explain why they were able to look past clan differences and realize than an alliance is the only way to stop future bloodshed. I think Madara's brothers being killed as sacrifices would demean that point.

I don't think we should really put too much stock in Itachi's words that the Uchiha Clan piled up "many sacrifices" throughout its generations... we know now that the MS can only be awakened by sincere emotional trauma/suffering... simply sacrificing someone because you desire power isn't enough, you have to actually love that person, too. It takes extreme circumstances for that sort of mentality to arise, where one's desire for power overcomes their dearest bonds... Sasuke is the only Uchiha in the series so far to have tried to willingly kill someone for the MS, and even he couldn't go through with it. Every MS shown has been activated accidentally after a life-changing trauma.

During their fight, Itachi was trying to make Sasuke fear/hate him, and did so by lying about why he needed Sasuke and why he murdered the clan.

This may be a weaker point, but Tobirama's description of Uchiha awakening the MS when they come to lose "intense feelings of love" does not seem to imply any willingness to sacrifice such feelings... you'd think someone as informed on the Uchiha as Tobirama would have some idea that intentional sacrifices were occurring. You'd think Hashirama would have learned of this, too... after all, he and Madara entered into an alliance and were close friends. Why wouldn't Madara open up to Hashirama about the Uchiha clan's "curse" if it involved intentional sacrifices?

In my opinion, the "Curse" of the Uchiha clan is just as Tobirama described: an excess of Yin/mental energies that can run out of control and affect their reasoning if left unchecked after extreme circumstances. And the age of 7 isn't some magical clue, it's probably pure coincidence.

[guy]

If killing each other for their eyes to activate ms/ems was part of their tradition, why is it that only very few people where able to activate ms? can't think of an explanation

This is could be why, but not every Uchiha even has the ability to have a sharingan. And according to the manga, it takes someone with true feelings of loss to gain MS. They never felt that pain in peace time. So I guess they had the ability for MS on standby for the Uchiha coupedeta/revolution? lol what?

The age seven thing in that Itachi was such a great shinobi(hokage level) at that age, that his parents could have thought that they should bring back the old tradition of killing a sibling to gain more power. Saskue was born when Itachi was seven. But knifeeater is making a interesting point of Hash saying that but I too believe that is a coincidence because that was for Hash's own sibling right..? However is it just me or there are no children are participating/dying in the current war?

[Jean-Marie]

Yes, we had "true villains". Hidan and kakazu. To a lesser extent, the gold and silver brothers.

Not untrue but still...
Hidan was insane and thought he was doing the right thing regarding his religion.
Kakazu was normal all his life before his failure to assassinate Hashirama. Only after he became consumed by hate.
We've seen only the edo version of the G&S brothers.
All of them were in the story only for the time of a battle (or almost), so they didn't have the opportunity to show their good side if any.

The thing Sasuke is puzzling on is oddly intriguing, and I hope the answer is not something trite and underwhelming.

For Sasuke, after all his Raging and going nigh insane, both from anger at Konoha and despair at Itachi's death, Sasuke is forced by Itachi's steadfast insistence on defending Konoha in spite of how much they wronged him, to at least try to discover what it was that Itachi was willing to give up his freedom, his good name, and his happiness for. Sasuke has gone so far as to bring back the 4 Hokages to do this.

What I wonder is whether the Answers Hashirama and Yondaime give him are going to be any different from the things we already know. Like for instance:

What is a Shinobi ? Answer: A shinobi is someone who endures and keeps vigil over the safety of the Village, and protects the unborn generations to come.

What is a Village? A village is a cocoon of safety, a nursery for raising the future generations.

What is a Clan? A clan is A family unit that joins together with other clans to comprise the Village, each clan contributing from its unique attributes to the betterment of the Village.

I guess the question I want to ask is whether Sasuke shouldn't know this already, and whether Hashirama can tell him anything different that he doesn't/or shouldn't already know?

Assuming that Sasuke really knows what he wants, then perhaps the answer he needs is not necessarily what he is asking, but rather the background and circumstances surrounding the Things he is asking about. As we see in this chapter, Hashirama is discussing Shinobis, and we are seeing the meaning of shinobis from Hashirama's father's view, and we are seeing how Hashirama and Tobirama are developing their own differing views on what shinobis should be like.

Interresting discussion.
Sasuke is slowly starting to amend himself and the story of Hashirama is too good. I don't expect Sasuke to decide to attack the leaf after that. But...
On the other hand the whole story of Uchiha being a curse clan and Madara being stonger than anyone because of the eye he developped when falling further in darkness than anyone... well is it not kind of hidden message that Sasuke will fall even lower?
I predict redemption now, fall later, and eventually redemption in the last chapter as Naruto can't be a hero if he can't save his friend.
Still an issue with this Theory. How could Sasuke fall again? He has no bonds now. To Naruto somehow but Naruto will not die now. Would he develop a strong bond now to someone else? To Hashirama? To his parents (they might be revived from the eyes in the jars at Obito's place). Not likely. I'm still puzzled.

[janfeae]

Wait a minute guys...I thought the Mangekyo Sharingan was a very rare and legendary thing. At least I believe that is what Sasuke's father said. Madara was first followed by his brother, and is the main reason he became leader of the clan. Other than that, only Itachi, Shisui, Obito, and Sasuke awakened the Mangekyo sharingan. Since this was such a rare happening, I don't believe killing young ones was common practice.

[Rlinfamous]

Wait a minute guys...I thought the Mangekyo Sharingan was a very rare and legendary thing. At least I believe that is what Sasuke's father said. Madara was first followed by his brother, and is the main reason he became leader of the clan. Other than that, only Itachi, Shisui, Obito, and Sasuke awakened the Mangekyo sharingan. Since this was such a rare happening, I don't believe killing young ones was common practice.

I agree, it's supposedly rare. However, Tobirama claims to have seen the Mangekyou awaken "countless times" when Uchiha lose those dear to them and are crushed by grief... however, that still doesn't support the idea that sacrifices were common.

[StareIntoMySharingan]

I agree, it's supposedly rare. However, Tobirama claims to have seen the Mangekyou awaken "countless times" when Uchiha lose those dear to them and are crushed by grief... however, that still doesn't support the idea that sacrifices were common.

Don't shoot me but I assumed that Tobirama is speaking about the standard Sharingan being activated due to stress, NOT the Mangejyou sharingan. A sharingan is activated by Uchiha members all the time, particularly due to some emotional stress of some kind or another(like in times of war for example). Examples being, Sasuke activating when Itachi slaughtered their parents, then when Naruto's life was in danger, and there's also Obito protecting Kakashi who just sacrificed his eye for Obito.

http://manga-access.com/manga/N/Naruto/chapter/619/18

^^ This is exactly what happened to Sasuke's brain and eyes when the following happened, I assume.

http://manga-access.com/manga/N/Naruto/chapter/403/10
http://manga-access.com/manga/N/Naruto/chapter/403/11

The activation of the standard sharingan seems to create a new chakra within the brain of the uchiha member.

[Rlinfamous]

Good point... I guess I focused too much on the necessity of a massive trauma such as losing loved ones, coupled with the phrase "considerable boost in power" (I probably focused too much on the "considerable" and "power", not the fact that it's a relative statement)... and the fact that it was considered a trait of the Sharingan (meaning the Sharingan had already awakened. However, it's definitely true that even the base Sharingan is activated/powered up by negative emotions, and treating the Mangekyou as an extension of that instead of a new type of requirement/activation is probably best.

[StareIntoMySharingan]

Good point... I guess I focused too much on the necessity of a massive trauma such as losing loved ones, coupled with the phrase "considerable boost in power" (I probably focused too much on the "considerable" and "power", not the fact that it's a relative statement)... and the fact that it was considered a trait of the Sharingan (meaning the Sharingan had already awakened. However, it's definitely true that even the base Sharingan is activated/powered up by negative emotions, and treating the Mangekyou as an extension of that instead of a new type of requirement/activation is probably best.

Right, also the pictures in Tobirama's explanation makes it clear, or at least it seems to, that he's speaking of the base sharingan(since it's the sharingan that Kishi drew rather than a random mangekyou or at least something which alludes to the mangekyou sharingan) being activated; the base sharingan being activated is something that Tobirama is sure to have witnessed in the middle of his clan's battling with the Uchiha clan "countless times." Battles in which specific uchiha members probably saw the death of a loved one, and in that said battle, activated the base sharingan, "countless times" in front of Tobirama.

I didn't make the connection though that the abse sharingan really does have with the MS, in regards to activation, nice catch.