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  1. #41
    Senior Member MOTS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by guy View Post
    This is probably in an old discussion, but I wonder if that the Uchihas kept that tradition of killing brothers secret up to the point of the massacre. Saskue was raised to be killed like a sheep.
    Guy, I agree. That's why Itachi had ill feelings toward the clan. He loved Sasuke, but knew that Sasuke was only being raised to be killed by his own clan for his eyes. I find it strange that we don't see any other Uchia boys around Sasuke's age alive.
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  2. #42
    Yesss... Rlinfamous's Avatar
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    I don't think Sasuke was ever va sacrifice, as far as his clan was concerned. Itachi may have worried about Sasuke being indoctrinated into his clan's ideals (isolation, arrogance, hatred passed down through generations), but I don't think killing siblings to obtain the Mangekyou was particularly common... maybe relative to other clans, simply because the Uchiha have the potential to gain power from it.

  3. #43
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    The thing Sasuke is puzzling on is oddly intriguing, and I hope the answer is not something trite and underwhelming.

    For Sasuke, after all his Raging and going nigh insane, both from anger at Konoha and despair at Itachi's death, Sasuke is forced by Itachi's steadfast insistence on defending Konoha in spite of how much they wronged him, to at least try to discover what it was that Itachi was willing to give up his freedom, his good name, and his happiness for. Sasuke has gone so far as to bring back the 4 Hokages to do this.

    What I wonder is whether the Answers Hashirama and Yondaime give him are going to be any different from the things we already know. Like for instance:

    What is a Shinobi ? Answer: A shinobi is someone who endures and keeps vigil over the safety of the Village, and protects the unborn generations to come.

    What is a Village? A village is a cocoon of safety, a nursery for raising the future generations.

    What is a Clan? A clan is A family unit that joins together with other clans to comprise the Village, each clan contributing from its unique attributes to the betterment of the Village.

    I guess the question I want to ask is whether Sasuke shouldn't know this already, and whether Hashirama can tell him anything different that he doesn't/or shouldn't already know?

    Assuming that Sasuke really knows what he wants, then perhaps the answer he needs is not necessarily what he is asking, but rather the background and circumstances surrounding the Things he is asking about. As we see in this chapter, Hashirama is discussing Shinobis, and we are seeing the meaning of shinobis from Hashirama's father's view, and we are seeing how Hashirama and Tobirama are developing their own differing views on what shinobis should be like.

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  4. #44
    [̲̅ə̲̅٨̲̅٥̲̅٦̲̅] guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rlinfamous View Post
    I don't think Sasuke was ever va sacrifice, as far as his clan was concerned. Itachi may have worried about Sasuke being indoctrinated into his clan's ideals (isolation, arrogance, hatred passed down through generations), but I don't think killing siblings to obtain the Mangekyou was particularly common... maybe relative to other clans, simply because the Uchiha have the potential to gain power from it.
    Yeah my logic was there is a seven year difference in the brothers and what is more interesting the manga recently stated that at age seven, Itachi was able to have "hokage reasoning" -whatever that means.. It was too much of a coincidence in my opinion.

    But then again Fugaku asked Itachi to protect Sasuke before letting Itachi kill him and Mikoto. Also I guess fratricide wasn't an ordinary occurrence seeing as that would raise all sorts of suspicion. I'm sure someone on the senjus side has to know how they get magenkyou and eternal sharingans.


    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    The thing Sasuke is puzzling on is oddly intriguing, and I hope the answer is not something trite and underwhelming.

    For Sasuke, after all his Raging and going nigh insane, both from anger at Konoha and despair at Itachi's death, Sasuke is forced by Itachi's steadfast insistence on defending Konoha in spite of how much they wronged him, to at least try to discover what it was that Itachi was willing to give up his freedom, his good name, and his happiness for. Sasuke has gone so far as to bring back the 4 Hokages to do this.

    What I wonder is whether the Answers Hashirama and Yondaime give him are going to be any different from the things we already know. Like for instance:

    What is a Shinobi ? Answer: A shinobi is someone who endures and keeps vigil over the safety of the Village, and protects the unborn generations to come.

    What is a Village? A village is a cocoon of safety, a nursery for raising the future generations.

    What is a Clan? A clan is A family unit that joins together with other clans to comprise the Village, each clan contributing from its unique attributes to the betterment of the Village.

    I guess the question I want to ask is whether Sasuke shouldn't know this already, and whether Hashirama can tell him anything different that he doesn't/or shouldn't already know?

    Assuming that Sasuke really knows what he wants, then perhaps the answer he needs is not necessarily what he is asking, but rather the background and circumstances surrounding the Things he is asking about. As we see in this chapter, Hashirama is discussing Shinobis, and we are seeing the meaning of shinobis from Hashirama's father's view, and we are seeing how Hashirama and Tobirama are developing their own differing views on what shinobis should be like.
    So Saskue is basically asking, why would a village commit genocide on one of its clans if that is what a village is supposed to protect? ..The clans that make up the village. Third's response would be, to prevent war. Saskue's counter would be, we are in war. Third says, my bad.

    A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.

  5. #45
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by guy View Post
    So Saskue is basically asking, why would a village commit genocide on one of its clans if that is what a village is supposed to protect? ..The clans that make up the village. Third's response would be, to prevent war. Saskue's counter would be, we are in war. Third says, my bad.
    Touche!

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  6. #46
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    Don't forget that Minato tends to speak about what a Shinobi is quite often as well:
    Spoiler!

  7. #47
    [̲̅ə̲̅٨̲̅٥̲̅٦̲̅] guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    Touche!
    War is pointless to commit and pointless to avoid. The third should have looked at my sig. A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools. We humans are all fools. Just saying..

    A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.

  8. #48
    Yesss... Rlinfamous's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    Don't forget that Minato tends to speak about what a Shinobi is quite often as well:
    Spoiler!
    Yeah, I figured Minato might be the one to explain to Sasuke the meaning of a "Shinobi"...

    Spoiler!


    I like these flashbacks, because they also bring in Jiraiya's definition of a Shinobi, which probably reflects Hiruzen's / Hashirama's. It'd be a great opportunity to see how Orochimaru was impacted by Jiraiya's death, and if his perspective has changed at all. It could be a great talking point.

  9. #49
    Senior Member knife eater's Avatar
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    Omfg! This is the most amazing theory ive heard in naruto discussion in a long time.

    I believe what he said, that sasuke (and other young uchiha siblings) are indeed raised to be sacrifices for power.

    Easy points any can deduce but ill go in chronological order.

    - hashirama despises war because kids as young as SEVEN are dying in battle.

    -losing his brother, hashirama underwent change and gaibed conviction to change thevsystem, he wanted to protect his brothers all along.

    -the uchiha were known to kill siblings for ms/ems andcwas tradition level practice.

    -madara "had 4 brothers", (theorize some died as brotherly sacrifices, NOT in battle)

    -madara wants to change the system (he was sacrifice age, was escaping to river.. theorize he was emotionally syressed knowing hevwould be killed by his own family for his eyes)

    -madara and hashirama form konaha, both fuelled by the hope tobprotect their brothers and friends.

    -tobirama migrates uchiha to outskirts, shows frustration at their emotional states (not losing love, but killing their love in secret and tsking each others eyes would probably drive them all sorts of menta)

    Skip

    -itachi, age SEVEN is a genius.. had wisdom of hokage andcleanwd many secrets and jutsu, most importantly.. uchiha secrets and history.

    Theory starts..

    -itachi comes to face that sasuke will be his "spare" and be sacrificed. The uchiha tradition remained in secret. If killing the clan was the only way to protect his brother them something foul was afoot even if the third dudnt know the truth.

    -itachi lectures sasuke during their fight.. explains that uchiha were lusting for power, killing abd blindung hrithers for eyes was COMMON between uchiha for a long time!! He said it was commom! It was their heritage!

    -itachi openly says "you were my spare, sasuke".. imlying sasuke was going to be a sacrifice under uchiha's own sanction and approval!

    Ok, you can find other details from that yourself

    -itachi, having probably learned the true history of the village, likely had some focus spent on hashirama's writings or accounts, also madara's.. learned the ugly uchiha truth.. itachi adopts hashirama's answers knowing hashirama mafe a point to define shinobi and villagebas something to cherish and protect because you love your brothers.

    Given the emphasis on around seven years old, younger born being groomed as spares, the duration of uchiha "bloody tradition" abd hashirama likely being identical to itachi in belief and faith...

    The practice of blinding and killing brothers was probably at the heart of the conflict between them and konaha, NOT other political realities. It's like tge american civil war... up front it's argued the was about "state's rights" but the plain truth for cast majority was to preserve slavery in the south. I

    There are striking parallels you must admit.

    Tobirama explains that uchiha loved above all else yet STILL called them evil and cursed (stealing eyes from own brothers)
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    Obito is Tobirama's great grandson. The proof is in the pudding.

  10. #50
    Haterboy michaesikagba's Avatar
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    If killing each other for their eyes to activate ms/ems was part of their tradition, why is it that only very few people where able to activate ms? can't think of an explanation
    Sorry but I'm not interested in weaklings

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