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  1. #31
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maximo View Post
    I have a feeling that Madara and Izuna were forced to kill theyre remaining brothers as it was stated several times in the manga that Uchihas had this kind of wretched ways of obtaining more power. There had to be something drastic to corrupt the young Madara that pretty much had the same ideals like Naruto. Hashirama doesnt seem to be stupid as a kid so I assume theres the difference between him and Naruto.
    Hashirama was always a deep thinker with a heart that longed for true peace, and Yeah, Wish Kishi didn't make Naruto as stupid as he did.


    Now for a Little Sci-fi addict nerdy comedy

    Spoiler!

    I am not perfect and I defy you to prove otherwise
    Growing Old Gracefully is an Oxymoron ... Mostly Moron !

  2. #32
    Yesss... Rlinfamous's Avatar
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    Of course, Hashirama's greatest insight in these flashbacks is that childlike simplicity that lets him look beyond the standards of his own society and look to a more ideal possibility... Naruto may be thicker in some ways, but he's able to take those ideals even further and actually back it up with his actions.

    Look at Hashirama's treatment of Kurama, where he states that Kurama's power is too great to run wild, and that only hatred will come of it.. the same could be said of monsters like Hashirama/Madara. Naruto, on the other hand, viewed Kurama as a person, an equal, and that, to me, shows all the difference between the two.

    EDIT: Also, upon re-reading, while slow... this is one of the best-written chapters in a long time. There's a lot to appreciate here. I can't wait to be able to re-read this chapter after 5-10 chapters of development, when my thirst for future development has subsided and my appreciation for depth/detail can be fully explored.

    I was not really looking forward to leaving Naruto/the Juubi for Sasuke's story arc... but these flashbacks and insights into history have really delivered! After a slump in quality since the Juubi was revived (imo), things have finally gotten fresh/exciting again. These flashbacks feel much more "complete" than the Obito flashbacks, which felt rushed and half-assed for the most part. I enjoyed the Kabuto flashbacks but... what can I say, Hashirama/Madara's history is just so much more interesting than Kabuto's!
    Last edited by Rlinfamous; 02-28-2013 at 02:35 AM.

  3. #33
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    Looks like Bee is actually part Senju as well, well at least it seems he is from the younger brother lineage, since:
    Senju Itama:
    Spoiler!

    looks a little like the previous 8-tails jinchuriki (he was chosen partially because of his lineage):
    Spoiler!

    and Bee is that previous jinchurki's cousin.


    Anyway, how do they hair color works ?

    Oh right, I almost forgot to mention that the black hair for Senju seems to work like the Red hair for Uzumaki. It is a symbol of extraordinary life force. Well, it does seem that, especially looking at Itama's hair being somewhat partially eaten/over taken by the black one.

  4. #34
    Yesss... Rlinfamous's Avatar
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    I think Senju Itama simply was half light/half dark-colored hair to represent being the "middle brother" between his parents.. Hashirama obviously resembles their father, whereas Tobirama resembles their light-haired mother... Itama is half light, half dark, demonstrating that he's a mix between their mother and father. There's not much more to it than that.

  5. #35
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    @Famous,

    Naruto had an advantage over Hashirama. For starters, Naruto is the Jinchuuriki, both he and Kurama were tied together whether they wanted it or not, this inevitably gave them time to finally get to know each other. Even so, Naruto had always thought of Kurama as a Monster, and as a demon fox that was evil. Had he not been involuntarily tied to the Fox, he'd have done the same thing that Hashirama did.

    In fact you could say that Naruto was worse than Hashirama in a way. It was always Naruto's intention to take away Kurama's Chakra and use him as a tool. Hashirama on the other hand sought to contain Kurama, not to use him. What made Naruto and Kurama able to successfully bond was that they each discovered that they needed each other for survival sake. Kurama on one hand needed to ally himself with Naruto in order to prevent being enslaved by Madara. Naruto on the other hand found that he needed Kurama's full strength to be able to save his friends.

    I think More Credit Should actually go to Kurama, he was the first to reconsider his position vis-a-vis Naruto, and he held out an Olive Branch to him (or his clone), during Madara's River of Trees Attack.

    I guess that I don't agree that Naruto was necessarily more tolerant than Hashirama was. Naruto was just the Right Person, with the right circumstance (was the Jinchuuriki) With the Right Lineage (minato and Kushina's child), and living in the Right Era facing the right opponent (Madara).

    I suppose that is why he was the Child of Prophesy.

    I am not perfect and I defy you to prove otherwise
    Growing Old Gracefully is an Oxymoron ... Mostly Moron !

  6. #36
    Yesss... Rlinfamous's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    @Famous,

    Naruto had an advantage over Hashirama. For starters, Naruto is the Jinchuuriki, both he and Kurama were tied together whether they wanted it or not, this inevitably gave them time to finally get to know each other. Even so, Naruto had always thought of Kurama as a Monster, and as a demon fox that was evil. Had he not been involuntarily tied to the Fox, he'd have done the same thing that Hashirama did.

    In fact you could say that Naruto was worse than Hashirama in a way. It was always Naruto's intention to take away Kurama's Chakra and use him as a tool. Hashirama on the other hand sought to contain Kurama, not to use him. What made Naruto and Kurama able to successfully bond was that they each discovered that they needed each other for survival sake. Kurama on one hand needed to ally himself with Naruto in order to prevent being enslaved by Madara. Naruto on the other hand found that he needed Kurama's full strength to be able to save his friends.

    I think More Credit Should actually go to Kurama, he was the first to reconsider his position vis-a-vis Naruto, and he held out an Olive Branch to him (or his clone), during Madara's River of Trees Attack.

    I guess that I don't agree that Naruto was necessarily more tolerant than Hashirama was. Naruto was just the Right Person, with the right circumstance (was the Jinchuuriki) With the Right Lineage (minato and Kushina's child), and living in the Right Era facing the right opponent (Madara).

    I suppose that is why he was the Child of Prophesy.
    I suppose I can't disagree with that... however, I wonder if Kurama (the Nine Tails) had the same reputation during Hashirama's era. Was it feared/hated by the Shinobi world, or were Bijuu perceived somewhat more neutrally prior to Madara's attack on Konoha using the Kyuubi as a weapon? After all, who (prior to Madara) had the power to forcibly involve the Bijuu in human conflicts?

    Basically, perhaps Hashirama had a chance to have a more neutral attitude towards Kurama, yet chose to instead enslave him, whereas Naruto (who has every reason to hate Kurama) instead chose to understand him.

  7. #37
    Senior Member tinatinaww's Avatar
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    I like the releationship of little Madara and little Hashirama. I found little Madara's so nice, he has a short temper though...

  8. #38
    Master of Bludging ChaosMaster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rlinfamous View Post
    I suppose I can't disagree with that... however, I wonder if Kurama (the Nine Tails) had the same reputation during Hashirama's era. Was it feared/hated by the Shinobi world, or were Bijuu perceived somewhat more neutrally prior to Madara's attack on Konoha using the Kyuubi as a weapon? After all, who (prior to Madara) had the power to forcibly involve the Bijuu in human conflicts?

    Basically, perhaps Hashirama had a chance to have a more neutral attitude towards Kurama, yet chose to instead enslave him, whereas Naruto (who has every reason to hate Kurama) instead chose to understand him.
    Wasn't it said that Hashirama had most of the Bijuu under his control, however he chose to share them with the other nations as a peace treaty? I'm guessing he never really used any Bijuu summoning because he felt he could fight better without them, not to mention Kurama is clearly stronger than the others.

  9. #39
    [̲̅ə̲̅٨̲̅٥̲̅٦̲̅] guy's Avatar
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    This is probably in an old discussion, but I wonder if that the Uchihas kept that tradition of killing brothers secret up to the point of the massacre. Saskue was raised to be killed like a sheep.

    A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.

  10. #40
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rlinfamous View Post
    I suppose I can't disagree with that... however, I wonder if Kurama (the Nine Tails) had the same reputation during Hashirama's era. Was it feared/hated by the Shinobi world, or were Bijuu perceived somewhat more neutrally prior to Madara's attack on Konoha using the Kyuubi as a weapon? After all, who (prior to Madara) had the power to forcibly involve the Bijuu in human conflicts?

    Basically, perhaps Hashirama had a chance to have a more neutral attitude towards Kurama, yet chose to instead enslave him, whereas Naruto (who has every reason to hate Kurama) instead chose to understand him.
    Don't know the answers to these questions 'Famous, but I do know that the Kin/Gin brothers were from that era, and Raikage seemed to be saying that the Cloud had been trying to capture Kurama in that Era (chapter 527). I would put the Kin/Gin attempt at a time before Madara Trapped and used Kurama as his Tool.

    I am not perfect and I defy you to prove otherwise
    Growing Old Gracefully is an Oxymoron ... Mostly Moron !

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