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  1. #11
    Senior Member Temperjoke's Avatar
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    Yeah, they were reacting to the Kyuubi's chakra and lifeforce. But where does the Kyuubi get his chakra? http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/611/8 seems to imply that it's gathered from nature, similar to Sage mode. Sorry, I was a bit tired when I posted that earlier, I accidentally left out that part. I also forgot, if the Mokuton is directly related to Natural Energy, that would explain why the Hashirama cells could suddenly go out of control when a person infused with them is weak or near death: http://www.mangapanda.com/93-46287-1...apter-480.html, the cells are still gathering Natural energy, but with nothing to control it.

  2. #12
    Senior Member knife eater's Avatar
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    i can be certain tsunade's "byakuya" is a technique utilizing sennin transformation.

    1) juugo had to heal sasuke after bee destroyed sasuke's neck and chest. to heal him he used his cells in "sennin transformation" or "cursed seal" form and the cells rapidly cured sasuke yet made juugo appear much younger. he then would have to have his remaining cells rapidly regenerate in order to assume appearance of his actual age within days. effectively, juugo had to age a few to several years rapidly to make up for what he gave to sasuke.

    2)tsunade's technique operates on the same principles as she uses her sennin transformation in a more complex system where it is sealed until the time she needs her cells to rapidly regenetate. she lets her cells act exactly llike juugo's but on herself when she sustains injuries like sasuke's. katsuta also appears to use juugo's variation of the technique as she offered capability to heal/repair tsunade who was split into two after her byakuya had run out. this also justifies why tsunade, "is the only person who can use her technique" as it is a special ability sealing sennin transformed cells.

    3)compare to kabuto when oro absorbed energy from kabuto while his paralyzed body was still in sennin transformation. he became youthful in appearance since he effectively was resembling the same behavior as juugo having lost cells in sennin mode.

    4)now, often when regular chakra is absorbed, the result is fatique or death and not a regression to youthful appearances followed by rapid cellular aging to compensate. only did the kyubi and maybe other very special circumstances did this happen but clearly occured to sennin transformed cells.

    -this is why sage mode is rarely used because the toll it takes on cells when gathered as well as the drawback with its healing abilities (pa explained naruto's sage mode enhanced healing). the requirements of "enormous chakra" seems to be tied now to sustaining and offsetting this effect on the cells so quickly regardless of how well the user can control chakra.

    -imo, sakura would be candidate for using tsunade's technique but perhaps not as strongly or intensely as tsunade's level.
    _____
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  3. #13
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by knife eater View Post
    i can be certain tsunade's "byakuya" is a technique utilizing sennin transformation.

    1) juugo had to heal sasuke after bee destroyed sasuke's neck and chest. to heal him he used his cells in "sennin transformation" or "cursed seal" form and the cells rapidly cured sasuke yet made juugo appear much younger. he then would have to have his remaining cells rapidly regenerate in order to assume appearance of his actual age within days. effectively, juugo had to age a few to several years rapidly to make up for what he gave to sasuke.

    2)tsunade's technique operates on the same principles as she uses her sennin transformation in a more complex system where it is sealed until the time she needs her cells to rapidly regenetate. she lets her cells act exactly llike juugo's but on herself when she sustains injuries like sasuke's. katsuta also appears to use juugo's variation of the technique as she offered capability to heal/repair tsunade who was split into two after her byakuya had run out. this also justifies why tsunade, "is the only person who can use her technique" as it is a special ability sealing sennin transformed cells.

    3)compare to kabuto when oro absorbed energy from kabuto while his paralyzed body was still in sennin transformation. he became youthful in appearance since he effectively was resembling the same behavior as juugo having lost cells in sennin mode.

    4)now, often when regular chakra is absorbed, the result is fatique or death and not a regression to youthful appearances followed by rapid cellular aging to compensate. only did the kyubi and maybe other very special circumstances did this happen but clearly occured to sennin transformed cells.

    -this is why sage mode is rarely used because the toll it takes on cells when gathered as well as the drawback with its healing abilities (pa explained naruto's sage mode enhanced healing). the requirements of "enormous chakra" seems to be tied now to sustaining and offsetting this effect on the cells so quickly regardless of how well the user can control chakra.

    -imo, sakura would be candidate for using tsunade's technique but perhaps not as strongly or intensely as tsunade's level.
    No it is not. It utilize yin release and not natural release. The Yin Seal is a sealing technique and quite possibly created by some Uzumaki, perhaps by Mito (she had a similar thing on her forehead). The Byakugou utilizes the Yin Seal Release, it's an advanced form of Sozo Saisei, the jutsu Tsunade used to heal herself at the fight against Oro. The marks on her body are pipes that channel the chakra stored in her forehead and utilizing it to auto-heal any damage.

    1. Juugo has literally shared his cells and life-force (strengthened by Natural Energy) with Sasuke. That's why he got weaker, until he absorbed someone's else life force.

    2. No, it was already explained what it is.

    3. No, his form changed presumably for the same reason why Jiraya had become more frog-like in his Sage Mode, because it was incomplete (still he could enter Sage Mode, while Oro couldn't), it's quite possible that the snake was used for similar reasons that Jiraya used Pa and Ma frogs. The reason why he started to mutate was because in Oro's cells there was a little of Natural Energy and since he incorporated Juugo's NE absorption ability, it grew dramatically, over all of his body later on.

    Of course it's possible that Kabuto had a perfect form of Snake Sage Mode and if he wasn't mutated, he would only gain the eyes and horns, maybe later on we will find out after his redemption, who knows ?

    4. That's because Oro absorbed only his own (Senjutsu) Chakra, which was the reason for Kabuto's mutation in the first place, he didn't even touch Kabuto's chakra.



    Sage mode is powerful, but there are little to none that can complete it (Hashirama seems to have a complete form, the other known person that completed it is Naruto, while it's hard to say how much completed Kabuto's was). Sage Mod's risk is greater than that of Mangekyoug Sharingan. You end blind eventually because of MS, the more you use it, the faster it comes to this, while if you made a mistake with Natural Energy, you might end up dead (most users have died because of it).


    Quote Originally Posted by Temperjoke View Post
    Yeah, they were reacting to the Kyuubi's chakra and lifeforce. But where does the Kyuubi get his chakra? http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/611/8 seems to imply that it's gathered from nature, similar to Sage mode. Sorry, I was a bit tired when I posted that earlier, I accidentally left out that part. I also forgot, if the Mokuton is directly related to Natural Energy, that would explain why the Hashirama cells could suddenly go out of control when a person infused with them is weak or near death: http://www.mangapanda.com/93-46287-1...apter-480.html, the cells are still gathering Natural energy, but with nothing to control it.
    It's hard to say. If Mokutoun was like that and Hashirama's cells were filled with Natural Energy and a weaker NE Absorbtion Ability than Jyugo's, it would mean that the risk of Hashirama's Sage Mode, is that the user might become a Tree. This could be tied with the naming of the place, the Bone Forest, perhaps suggesting that all those trees, are humans that failed to control Natural Energy.

    However, it might be that the reason why Hashirama's cells went out of control, is because of the Life Energy that they are filled with. Remember, Danzou used most of his chakra, he no longer had the necessary amount of Spiritual Energy, to balance Hashirama's Life Energy and it simply went out of control. Something similar happened with Sasuke and Oro broke out.


    Then again, it seems that all mutations are actually tied with Natural Energy somehow. That "special chakra" that mutates the Uchiha's eyes into MS and makes them crazy (like CS users) might be a type of Senjutsu Chakra. This as well would explain why they have seemingly additional source of chakra for their MS jutsu.

  4. #14
    Senior Member knife eater's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    No it is not. It utilize yin release and not natural release. The Yin Seal is a sealing technique and quite possibly created by some Uzumaki, perhaps by Mito (she had a similar thing on her forehead). The Byakugou utilizes the Yin Seal Release, it's an advanced form of Sozo Saisei, the jutsu Tsunade used to heal herself at the fight against Oro. The marks on her body are pipes that channel the chakra stored in her forehead and utilizing it to auto-heal any damage.

    1. Juugo has literally shared his cells and life-force (strengthened by Natural Energy) with Sasuke. That's why he got weaker, until he absorbed someone's else life force.

    2. No, it was already explained what it is.

    3. No, his form changed presumably for the same reason why Jiraya had become more frog-like in his Sage Mode, because it was incomplete (still he could enter Sage Mode, while Oro couldn't), it's quite possible that the snake was used for similar reasons that Jiraya used Pa and Ma frogs. The reason why he started to mutate was because in Oro's cells there was a little of Natural Energy and since he incorporated Juugo's NE absorption ability, it grew dramatically, over all of his body later on.

    Of course it's possible that Kabuto had a perfect form of Snake Sage Mode and if he wasn't mutated, he would only gain the eyes and horns, maybe later on we will find out after his redemption, who knows ?

    4. That's because Oro absorbed only his own (Senjutsu) Chakra, which was the reason for Kabuto's mutation in the first place, he didn't even touch Kabuto's chakra.



    Sage mode is powerful, but there are little to none that can complete it (Hashirama seems to have a complete form, the other known person that completed it is Naruto, while it's hard to say how much completed Kabuto's was). Sage Mod's risk is greater than that of Mangekyoug Sharingan. You end blind eventually because of MS, the more you use it, the faster it comes to this, while if you made a mistake with Natural Energy, you might end up dead (most users have died because of it).




    It's hard to say. If Mokutoun was like that and Hashirama's cells were filled with Natural Energy and a weaker NE Absorbtion Ability than Jyugo's, it would mean that the risk of Hashirama's Sage Mode, is that the user might become a Tree. This could be tied with the naming of the place, the Bone Forest, perhaps suggesting that all those trees, are humans that failed to control Natural Energy.

    However, it might be that the reason why Hashirama's cells went out of control, is because of the Life Energy that they are filled with. Remember, Danzou used most of his chakra, he no longer had the necessary amount of Spiritual Energy, to balance Hashirama's Life Energy and it simply went out of control. Something similar happened with Sasuke and Oro broke out.


    Then again, it seems that all mutations are actually tied with Natural Energy somehow. That "special chakra" that mutates the Uchiha's eyes into MS and makes them crazy (like CS users) might be a type of Senjutsu Chakra. This as well would explain why they have seemingly additional source of chakra for their MS jutsu.
    good arguments. so good as to cause me to reconsider and reassess. im going to make another point ir two not because i think they are tight but because im curios of your answers and if they help me think of a different idea..

    1) the yin release was acting as the storage locker. was her chakra itself under yin condition or was the only the seal yin based. i could see the stored chakra containing natural energy portion. as remarkable as her medical abilities are, there seems to be a limit or threshold as to just how effective chakra can act as a healing or repair agent and her byakugou is far and above that threshold. i am holding out for influence of natural energy.

    2) i was speaking as to kabuto's youthful appearance after his sennin transformation ended. he looked much younger but i could be misreading some things and duping myself. he lost his snake energy originally belonging to oro, huh? what exactly will kabuto lose now that oro's portion is missing? maybe he looked young because i forgot his natural human.appearance since he took the features of snake a long time ago.

    3) i dont recall many life force exchanges but not every severe example resulted in age reversal? tsunade - neji? chiyo did not reverse age while performing her revival of gara, though no cells were involved. i doubt that example even applies here anyway.

    cheers

    update: check this out. gamabunta has sage eyes as well as the markings all over.

    http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/503/10

    the next page has minato saying he needs enough chakra to teleport the fox and its blast away from the village. now, you could say gamabunta was summoned to simply hold the fox while minato gathered chakra but could it be he quickly went into sage mode to gather strong energies to teleport such massive forces into the distance? did he summon gamabunta because if summoned, he could offer minato sage chakra? minato knew chakra distribution methods we see naruto using with the alliance so it's feasible minato underwent a chakra exchange with gamabunta!

    these matters and similar are omissions, not necessarily impossibilities. (within and of the manga)
    Last edited by knife eater; 02-24-2013 at 07:42 AM.
    _____
    Obito is Tobirama's great grandson. The proof is in the pudding.

  5. #15
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    Rereading some old chapters, I came upon this statue:
    Spoiler!


    The eyes and the mark on it's forehead do remind me of Hashirama's Sage Mode. Perhaps Hashirama's version Sage Animal is actually a tiger ?

  6. #16
    Senior Member Nano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by knife eater View Post

    update: check this out. gamabunta has sage eyes as well as the markings all over.

    http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/503/10

    the next page has minato saying he needs enough chakra to teleport the fox and its blast away from the village. now, you could say gamabunta was summoned to simply hold the fox while minato gathered chakra but could it be he quickly went into sage mode to gather strong energies to teleport such massive forces into the distance? did he summon gamabunta because if summoned, he could offer minato sage chakra? minato knew chakra distribution methods we see naruto using with the alliance so it's feasible minato underwent a chakra exchange with gamabunta!

    these matters and similar are omissions, not necessarily impossibilities. (within and of the manga)
    *Sigh* Gamabunta looks like he is in sage mode because when you enter frog sage mode you gain frog like features. So bunta or any other actual frog would of course look a bit like Naruto in sage mode because they are in fact real frogs.....

    Yes technically Minato could have gone into sage mode to teleport the Kyuubi, but we do not have a single peice of evidence that would indicate that. Building up a massive amount of chakra simply takes time, and it in itself does not hint at sage mode. Yes he could have bonded with Bunta and possibly transfered sage chakra (if bunta had somehow anticipated Minato would summon him, so he had taken time to build natural energy - a point contridicted on the next page when he is suprised to have been summoned), but once again we are left with the fact that there is simply no panels showing anything remotely like that.

    The frogs have to take the time to build up the natural energy, just like everyone else. They are not excempt from having to wait a short time to reach the required amount - Even Fukusaku. http://www.mangapanda.com/93-414-13/...apter-409.html
    Quote Originally Posted by [JUiCE] View Post
    The virginity is strong in this one.

  7. #17
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    Hmmmm, I'm starting to wonder if Garaa's father didn't had some kind of Sage Mode, perhaps an incomplete one ? Here you can notice that he concentrates by stying still and then a marks appear around his eyes. It doesn't appear on other Magnet-elements user, while Garaa might have it because of Shukaku, similar how Naruto has whisker from Kyubi:
    Spoiler!

    It seems to give him enough boost to top a Bijuu's elemental attack.

  8. #18
    Senior Member knife eater's Avatar
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    what are the differences between hermit arts that hashirama used in 631 and sage arts? byakuya is back on the table as sage art imo.
    _____
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  9. #19
    Scanlator POW's Avatar
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    Hermit arts = Sage arts just a different terminology used by translators


    Fire type

    What chakra type are you?
    http://www.quizilla.com/quizzes/4038...lement-are-you

  10. #20
    Senior Member knife eater's Avatar
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    so is it safe to make distinction between sage mode and sage arts?

    sage mode = body enhancements and additional abilities

    sage arts = crazy ass jutsus

    are they exclusive? mutually exclusive? do you need to be in sage mode to perform sage arts?

    seems the whole sage thing has a very strange and inconsistent difficulty curve besides just being difficult to begin with.

    hashirama seems to just bust immediately some sage arts without indication of undergoing the process required of jiraya and naruto. as in.. hashirama doesn't enter a sage mode to do sage arts unless it's a special senju trait similar to juugo's clans to bust into sage territory with easier entry and less restriction.

    im convinced again about tsunade having her special brand of sage (soon to be seen in sakura) and her rebirth technique is in part a sage technique.
    _____
    Obito is Tobirama's great grandson. The proof is in the pudding.

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