Naruto 621 Discussion / 622 Predictions

[Saiges]

Why didn't Madara use his Godmode Susano'o? The mask on Kyuubi's face looks like it but it seems much smaller!?

I always thought there was a Senju-mode (to counter the sharingan) but this one seems Hashirama-only. What's their counter jutsu to sharingan then?

Lastly, the statue reminds me of Asuma's bald-friend-no-jutsu & the battle-flashback was too short.

And why all the relationships between important characters have to start at their very childhood? Couldn't they for once have met as adult individuals with their ideas about the world in mind?

Yes seriously...This part downgraded the chapter for me (still epic though).

[Jean-Marie]

I'm surprised Harashimara tells Madara they were supposed to be friends. I thought the 2 clans were in war since the death of the so6p.

[paulbee]

It felt so damn short. It was like reading bleach!

And why all the relationships between important characters have to start at their very childhood? Couldn't they for once have met as adult individuals with their ideas about the world in mind?
I thought uchihas and senju were enemies...how was it possible for madar and hashirama to meet so randomly? werem't the uchiha guarding their territory?

I think Kishi is bending over backward to draw parallels between Hashirama and Madara on the one hand, and Naruto and Sasuke on the other.

Hashirama.. Wow.. Just wow. His Mokuton-godmode jutsu made the kyuubi with its Suitsanoo look like Webster.

LOL, Love it. (Now, where is that "Like" Button?)


All the Ninjas and their Summons vs Hashirama.....And the Winner Is...HASHIRAMA

[knife eater]

it looks like sennin transformation is a result of this "many hands" technique. i might be jumping the gun but that technique along with tsunade's byakuya regeneration are indeed at some level a sennin change from the willfull or unwitting inclusion of natural energy.

no need to associate hashirama with an animal kingdom. his style seems to spring from the plant kingdom with a spin of yggdrasil or other mythologically important tree or flower sitting at the top of the kingdom. it seems to be granting him immunity or counter to everything we have seen so far and well above any animal kingdom could offer. the "plant/tree kingdom" has a more central role to play and is the underpinning to energy and life whereas the frog or snake kingdoms merely reflect a facet within a cycle.

the many hands technique is an ultimatum? it is indeed playing on the idea of hand and fan? senju - uchiha? naruto as wind and sasuke as flame?

i think madara is supposed to answer that technique with an uchiha specific move that demonstrates the compatible destiny between senju and uchiha and hashirama's technique there is a reminder or madara will get stomped because he does not want to answer as hashirama hopes.

it looks like hashirama's move is a "be my friend or die.. last warning" bid because all those hands could be holding fans or in a grim turn of madara's pride ... be bitch slapping out the fire.

edit: how is madara's susanoo similar to the versions used against the 5 kages? each time his susanoo had 2 swords right?

also, i feel this might be important .. edo sarutobi explained that at 7 years of age, itachi demonstrated the wisdom of a hokage and had, during those years of his childhood, studied the "old ways" and teachings many others chose to forget or ignore. could itachi's boyhood studies have lead him to obscure information regarding mangekyo and its powers, thus playing a factor into why he awakened amaterasu and tsukiyomi as opposed to something else? tje uchiha, abandoning madara's pov, would likely forget alot of uchiha knowledge and history until such times their pride is stirred into a resemblence of real world nationalism. heck, madara probably left alit of secrets himself having "reached the top".

-itachi was impressively learned at age 7, before he awoke mangekyo.
-itachi's lectures to sasuke during their fight to the death shows itachi knew a detailed account of uchiha history and secrets as well as a handle on who madara was beyond the popular image of the legend.
-these things he internalized at such a young age plus maybe other learned secrets driven by his developing understanding and ultimate love for the village are why he awoke amaterasu and tsukiyomi as they, for reasons unknown to us now, the perfect abilities for protecting the village (equally so in destroying it) as he saw it.

there must be a bigger idea as to why madara chose tsukiyomi as his power of choice for his ultimate plan as well as why itachi awoke it with the feelings he had learned to have at a young age as well as why he paired his power with amaterasu. to me, madara and itachi knew something very deep and potentially grave about their heritage and the reason madara wants to use tsukiyomi to destroy is the same reason itachi would use and prepare tsukiyomi otherwise. itachi has always been inductive with sasuke, rarely direct as to allow his path to form naturally. sasuke will figure out the biz with tsuliyomi on his own.

[Lakritze]

That's not fair, Kishi! How could you...

Literally less than a week after I state that Hashirama is the only super-strong shinobi with normal eyes, Kishi proves me wrong. He isn't. He's a freaking sage, and my nice theories are crumbling apart. Damn it.

When Kabuchimaro mentioned the three sage-places - Ryuchidou (snake-related), Myoubokuzan (frog-related) and Shikkotsu - I was convinced Shikkotsu is gonna be slug-related. I was even hoping Sakura might become a slug-sage one day. However, since Shikkotsu is in a forest, and Hashirama is a wood-element-user, there is a good chance that it's the place where he became a sage.

Hashirama defines a new level of bad-ass-ness: He watches Kurama within a perfect Susano'o, and he just smiles and says something like: "Not bad, Madara. Well done. That's a funny move. You know, I like this place, maybe we should calmly walk to the shore to have more fun..." While everybody else is shitting in their pants when they are just facing one of those two.



Paulbee-counter: 5626 missing posts to catch up to him.

[knife eater]

That's not fair, Kishi! How could you...

Literally less than a week after I state that Hashirama is the only super-strong shinobi with normal eyes, Kishi proves me wrong. He isn't. He's a freaking sage, and my nice theories are crumbling apart. Damn it.

When Kabuchimaro mentioned the three sage-places - Ryuchidou (snake-related), Myoubokuzan (frog-related) and Shikkotsu - I was convinced Shikkotsu is gonna be slug-related. I was even hoping Sakura might become a slug-sage one day. However, since Shikkotsu is in a forest, and Hashirama is a wood-element-user, there is a good chance that it's the place where he became a sage.

Hashirama defines a new level of bad-ass-ness: He watches Kurama within a perfect Susano'o, and he just smiles and says something like: "Not bad, Madara. Well done. That's a funny move. You know, I like this place, maybe we should calmly walk to the shore to have more fun..." While everybody else is shitting in their pants when they are just facing one of those two.



Paulbee-counter: 5626 missing posts to catch up to him.

this may be the only chance the following statement has to be true... slugs are for girls.

oh, the reasons why madara and hashirama had a casual encounter when both clans are at war..

their personalities are as such that their reasoning does not adhere to conventional wisdom or danger. they will go when and where they please and will often have to be bailed out! these are forerunners to naruto and sasuke after all! as kids i would expect them to be oblivious and to also go unaffected by how their brethren explain the feelings they should have against enemies they don't know. they grow amd develop on their own terms and is why they become so godly. normal tactics and logic involving potential danger or enemy zones will never hamper or restrict kids like hashirama - naruto and madara - sasuke. heck, even their parents could have been laying the foundations for the first generation of peace and the kids met in the back yard. maybe they both ran away from their clan territories and chanced each other. maybe they both had the same sarutobi uncle or hyuga cousin.. point is, the reason given which makes their encounter unlikely is actually the weakest reason when considering their personalities and the fact that destiny is such an important piece to the story even when disproving destiny is reason for other characters' being.

@zero, the old panels you showed serve as evidence to part of paul bee's theory that the senju had already begun reconciliation with other clans that had splintered from the so6p situation. sakura's kamon/crest on hashirama's head is an indicator of hashirama's and senju's progress in bringing it all back together from generations being scattered. seems konaha's assortment of clans have senju blood and influence running in them now.

I've always enjoyed when old covers and panels from hundreds of chapters prior end up predicting or suggesting ideas taking place currently. good finds! like the first year cover of naruto atop the frog before we meet the sannin!

[Rlinfamous]

Hashirama, who's base chakra can shatter walls, can ALSO enter Sage Mode. While this makes sense, it just makes him 3x more overpowered... that Thousand Hand Jutsu is insanity. It's far bigger than the Juubi; remember, that's the BIG version of the Kyuubi that Madara outfitted with his Susano'o. I actually think Hashirama could compete with Rinnegan/Mokuton Madara; no matter how many techniques Madara commands, Hashirama can defeat them all with raw power.

It makes me wonder how Naruto will ever stand as an equal to Hashirama, if he ever does... I want Naruto to learn the secret to unlocking that level of power. As it stands, Kyuubu/Sage Mode will still hardly put him on Hashirama's level.

[Kenny Bones]

Great chapter Remember, this is a build up. Which means, Naruto will surpass even Hashirama. Just wonder how he will do that. It also makes me think that we'll see a time skip after the whole juubi incident. Edo kages will also enter the battle after this talk with Sasuke. And Sasuke will also join in, perhaps fight Naruto. Although, it makes me think of what reasons they have of fighting to begin with? I mean, they have no real differences. Other than Sasuke wanting to destroy Konoha. Which it looks like he won't be doing. Something big needs to happen.

[knife eater]

Hashirama, who's base chakra can shatter walls, can ALSO enter Sage Mode. While this makes sense, it just makes him 3x more overpowered... that Thousand Hand Jutsu is insanity. It's far bigger than the Juubi; remember, that's the BIG version of the Kyuubi that Madara outfitted with his Susano'o. I actually think Hashirama could compete with Rinnegan/Mokuton Madara; no matter how many techniques Madara commands, Hashirama can defeat them all with raw power.i

It makes me wonder how Naruto will ever stand as an equal to Hashirama, if he ever does... I want Naruto to learn the secret to unlocking that level of power. As it stands, Kyuubu/Sage Mode will still hardly put him on Hashirama's level.

it looks like hashirama was special because his mokuton can harness outward chakras thus making his "tree of life" angle allow him to be empowered by the scattered bloodlines that retained a shard of the reality so6p knew. the true power being realized in symbol is a given but to have it realised physically in the form of a worthy person would make sense. i am not saying hashirama learned or had the ability to master the bloodline limits of other clans, that is impossible without rinnegan granting mastery over all elements (as jiraya noted with nagato) but it stands that hashirama's goals and vision drove him to reach out to the scattered legacies and clans of so6p and those that accepted could have resulted in playing a role of how hia deeper power works. his power is not simply with wood but something deeper in the fabric of life and genesis.. so
ething conceptually necessary, imo, to realize and bind the returning image and powers of the bloodlines. it's messy, and his natural energy style would be on a different level and execution from the animal varieties and more in tune with the raw state of the juubi, not through a refined process for sake of jutsu that is then taught through a schooling process. hashirama seems to have his charisma tied to his power because it is so raw and vast idk i list my train of thought but i wanted to say that hashirama is a figure of progress bringing back many powers into one place, village, person .. madara denied the him the missing pieces so to speak.

[Lakritze]

Hashirama, who's base chakra can shatter walls, can ALSO enter Sage Mode. While this makes sense, it just makes him 3x more overpowered... that Thousand Hand Jutsu is insanity. It's far bigger than the Juubi; remember, that's the BIG version of the Kyuubi that Madara outfitted with his Susano'o. I actually think Hashirama could compete with Rinnegan/Mokuton Madara; no matter how many techniques Madara commands, Hashirama can defeat them all with raw power.

It makes me wonder how Naruto will ever stand as an equal to Hashirama, if he ever does... I want Naruto to learn the secret to unlocking that level of power. As it stands, Kyuubu/Sage Mode will still hardly put him on Hashirama's level.

I agree, Hashirama looks way overpowered like that. My personal theory was that Naruto was the natural enemy against the Rinnegan because of his sage-mode. Once someone absorbs his sage-chakra, he turns into stone, as he proved during his fight against Pain. I was sure that would play a role, but it didn't.

@knife eater: You are right, there might be chance to save my Sakura-slug-theory: I'll go on a lim here and say, that the relationship between Sakura's Haruno Clan and Senju is similar to Uzumaki-Senju. Zero's picture really brought me to the conclusion, that what we can see there is the Haruno-clan-sign. I'll even go one step further and say Tsunade is a Haruno (we don't know her last name, so why not). And that way, she might still become a sage. Let me dream a little bit...

I really feel ashamed that I considered the fight between Kakashi and Zabuza impressive.



Personal Paulbee-counter: 5625 missing posts to catch up to him.