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  1. #101
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    Wasn't it stated somewhere that only Madara could summon the Kyuubi, if that is true would it be some kind of contract (willing or unwilling), or whether the Kyuubi's chakra just somehow interferes with the summoning attempt.
    Technically Obito can summon it as well, along with Gedou Mazou as well (but it seems that only after he obtained Rinnegan eye).

    I believe that there is a contract formed the same way it is with other summoning animals. The same ritual is performed in order to summon it after all. Of course the contract is done unwillingly, but with the MS's powers, it is quite easy to form it on the spot. Rather, MS's properties seem to allow to form a summoning contract without need of the blood contract. Even Sasuke formed a contract with a hawk, by seemingly only using his MS (hax ). Perhaps it is then done on spiritual level, by sharing a bit of their spiritual energies, rather than through blood, which seems to have rather physical aspects. This might suggest that it was the Elder Brother's or his descendants that first formed summoning contracts with animals. This isn't surprising at all, because it's another watered down power of the Rinnegan's Animal Path, that Sharingan/MS inherited.

  2. #102
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    Well Obito Had Hashirama's cells...............

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  3. #103
    Senior Member knife eater's Avatar
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    i dont believe minato's ftg of the kyubi will be anything close to a standard summon. the mechanism is too different to guess similarity. ftg on the kyubi was a manipulation and accounting for an object according to how ftg works, same as with a kunai or beast bomb, the chakra amount and preparation required depends on the size and nature of the teleportation object. summoning works on a completely different board of logic with bindings of two party contract and spiritual affinities and hostilities being as important or more than chakra.

    i guess we will never know just how much chakra minato could store but i think the consensus so far is close. i can rest easy now with the opinion that chakra control is an area that demonstrates a shinobi's level of bad assness as much or more than chakra amount. we can now have new threads arguing minato's superiority over itachi :0 ...... nevermind

    on that note, is there an old thread somewhere discussing space time jutsu's? it seems to be possible only to shinobi with highest skill of chakra control. it would surpass genjutsu imo and is why we see fewer space time wielders than genjutsu wielders. sharingan ofc bypassing the requirements a non uchiha must overcome.

    oh, the stone tablet's secret was the sharingan's destiny to control the kyubi. it would not be limited to madara but apparently he was the only uchiha with the gumption to do it.
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  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by knife eater View Post
    given that minato could pass out so many ftg seals to a trench full of shinobi, perhaps he stocked up on some other things too. would frog oil have worked outside the mountain? i don't want to stress workarounds and there was no sign of sage energy channeling through his body at the time he redirected the bijuudama.. it just goes to show that even though i totally believe he qualified to be a sage, even beyond jiraya's level.. the fact that he was never confirmed a sage shows you how boss minato really was to have dealt with suge huge amounts of hostile chakra at one time by using the output of his own energy.

    as far as controlling chakra goes, i would say minato is pretty much at the top. if that is more palatable to some then wouldn't that be as impressive, if not more than simply having large stores of chakra?

    what are some other examples of impressive feats of chakra to compare to minato's ftg the kyubi's chakra twice (beast bomb then entire bidy) as well as the strength to yank the kyubi's yin chakra (dead demon seal doesn't do all the work, as sarutobi found out).

    i'd like to get a contrasting scale to put minato where he belongs because he is more often downplayed when my impression has always been the opposite. there is very little in the way of impressive chakra coping and relrase above ftg use when tobi attacked. above that you have pein's moon (meh), dust release (three elements! ) madara's susanoo, hashirama's mokuton. this is all non bijuu non sage conventional human chakra.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rlinfamous View Post
    To me, teleporting a large creature with FTG is probably about the same thing as summoning them with a regular Summoning Jutsu. If that took a significant toll on Minato, I wouldn't peg him as a "Chakra Beast" like Naruto/Kisame/etc. He's all about finesse. To me, he represents the highest level of power for a ninja with no special bloodline and no substantial chakra capacity.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    @Knife, I can tell you that Minato's chakra pool is probably on similar level to what Kakashi had (slightly power upped by the Kyubi) when he was teleporting 8-tails. Teleporting a whole bijuu seem to take tool on both of them, although in Kakashi's case, his limited compatibility takes additional tool on him, but you have to remember that Kakashi had to first send the bijuu into other dimension and then teleport it back. It can be probably compared to the chakra used in Minato's fight with Tobi + sending the bijuudama and then the whole Kyubi with the bijuudama. Yes Minato did much more than Kakashi, but he simply has better compatibility with his jutsu.

    Strangely enough, summoning or unsummoning something, or even an animal of similar size to a bijuu, takes much less chakra than other space-time jutsu that teleports them. The creator of the summoning jutsu must have been quite a genius to make it so effective and low chakra cost compared to other S-T jutsu of that caliber. Assuming that the blood works only as a marker and that the summoning animal doesn't give a little of it's own chakra when being summoned.
    Although you make good points Knife eater, but believe partly because of pa frogs words + a couple of signs throughout the manga that the indications are more towards what Zero said more so in the second paragraph. In fact I would even take it a step further that either a lot of the jutsus he created probably really were created with the intention of requiring much less chakra than we might be used to seeing in the present day jutsus ( especially seeing how well and detailed he thought into the future of completing rasengan, another move thought of with power, speed + efficiency seemingly it's main goals), or space/ time/ teleportation jutsus by their very nature don't use up that much chakra.

    I mean yes Minato could be a chakra monster from just starting out as a ninja till death, (but something in the consistent way thru the few times and time periods we've been shown of him how his chakra levels/ usage/ jutsus that can be performed seems to stay consistently basically the same would indicate that unlikely; as with Naruto a large chakra pool should also grow over time, largely ,which Minato's doesn't really seem to do), or as a slight pattern can be somewhat seen that space/ time/ teleportation might naturally reduce/ reuse/ or just use less/ or even a portion of the energy burden be 'shunted' onto the space/ time it teleports to ; or possibly during war time/ missions to pull possibly in a range of a hundred or more/ less teleports, ( 1 jutsu where he teleports to his kunai) ,per day, it would have made sense to come up with ways or reducing/ maybe better regulating chakra usage, no matter how big a chakra pool he might or might not have had.

    I propose either he realized since all his more original, and space time jutsus could cripple him, (make him as useless as he wouldn't want to frustratingly be), from repeated use, or realized in creating all these jutsus in the 1st place, a partial way of making weight, size, or numbers to mean less/ or nothing when dealing with space/ time/ teleportation, or space/ time/ teleportation jutsus use up less energy quite naturally (when not summoning creatures from other worlds, or just shunting them to intermediate worlds like the 1 Tobi travels thru). Which makes sense if you think of dealing with space + and time teleportation, + see how much easier it is for Tobi/ E Zombie Madara as in comparison to Kakashi. My point being Kakashi practically has 3 sources draining his chakra reserves when utilizing the jutsus especially when using only the sharnigan to produce a space/ time/ teleportation jutsu. And as far as I can remember Kakashi is the only 1 who seems to have "drains", or 'problems with size and quantity when it comes to these things which might just be due to the unnaturalness of Kakashi's eye implant. Thus The reason Minato's jutsus might seem effortlessly chakra spending, like EZ Madara and Tobi or like he draws from huge reserves; is just Minato's methods / jutsus are a bit more naturally thus more 'fluently' done, or space/ time/ teleportation is less of a cost unless working with tremendous numbers or sizes, and or Kakashi's drain, or limitations might just be greater than it sometimes seems.
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  5. #105
    Senior Member knife eater's Avatar
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    i am not disagreeing with statements about summoning, you guys are totally on the money with that one. also, the manga did indeed.demonstrate that kamui must be used twice, once to enter the kamui dimension and then once more to exit the dimension (as tobi remarked in surprise kakashi was able to exit in his fatigued state). that said, i still am not entirely convinced we have effective comparison between kakashi's kamui or fox enhanced kamui shifting hachibi in and out... and ftg. i guess we can obtain a broad yet undefined picture but imo, it is less accurate than say.. an estimation of the naruto timeline when figuring beginning to end and contrasting going backwards from end to beginning.

    some points here i hope you and zero can comment on:

    -ftg operates by a clear chakra ratio, caster/object. kamui does not make it clear it how it's caster/object ratio works. yes, kakashi explained the kamui of hachibi was not possible without kyubi's chakra but throughout the manga if or when kakashi described his kamui, he always stated that his obstacle was the physical size of the object. the struggle appears to be with opening the gate. (like a crank opening a castle gate, a crack will let a mouse through but its much harder to open when you want to let in an army).

    -the ftg ignores object intent, it will work the same even if the object wanted to resist. with kamui, at the very least, can likely benefit from a cooperative object. naruto, for example, could jump through the kamui gate on his own accord thereby reducing the duration kakashi must keep the gate open as well as whatever cost the "vortex" might incur for the strength of its "suction".

    -we don't know how ftg manages objects that do not have chakra, a refrigerator or a guitar, but it is not unreasonable to think in such cases, minato's chakra will enter ratio with the object's natural enrrgy or forces (idea needs exploring)

    -lastly while both ftg and kamui are "spacetime" techniques, it would be more fair to say ftg is a spacetime jutsu wheras kamui is a mangekyo ability. kamui being first and foremost a mangekyo ability; its foundation is laid upon the price and requirement of mangekyo sharingan, not a conversational space time jutsu.

    anyway, i hope this garners another round of discussion because i look foreward to your replies.

    edit: separate topic, i want to point out that madara does not necessarily have tsukiyomi or amaterasu because when minato fought tobi, he said "...space time technique above nidaime's and my own" + "only madara could pull it off". while that proves nothing or madara's space time tech was not an ms ability... it's at the very least, a one step in the opposite direction of him having tsukiyomi and a point for why sasuke would be so important and also suggest that ppl like obito and sasuke were seemingly cherry picked in foreknowledge of destiny (rinnegan and sharingan have overlapping function and effects with the fabric of destiny).
    _____
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  6. #106
    Senior Member Lakritze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    Technically Obito can summon it as well, along with Gedou Mazou as well (but it seems that only after he obtained Rinnegan eye).

    I believe that there is a contract formed the same way it is with other summoning animals. The same ritual is performed in order to summon it after all. Of course the contract is done unwillingly, but with the MS's powers, it is quite easy to form it on the spot. Rather, MS's properties seem to allow to form a summoning contract without need of the blood contract. Even Sasuke formed a contract with a hawk, by seemingly only using his MS (hax ). Perhaps it is then done on spiritual level, by sharing a bit of their spiritual energies, rather than through blood, which seems to have rather physical aspects. This might suggest that it was the Elder Brother's or his descendants that first formed summoning contracts with animals. This isn't surprising at all, because it's another watered down power of the Rinnegan's Animal Path, that Sharingan/MS inherited.
    Don't make things more complicated than they already are: We have absolutely no indication of Sasuke's hawk being anything else than a normal contract-summon. Even Obito wondered when he got that, and he would know if it were anything Sharingan-related.

    I know, Germans are supposed to be harsh, and if I appear as such, I don't mean it, but to say it bluntly: We are really wasting our time trying to assess Minato's chakra-pool. We simply don't have enough information on that. I am convinced he has enormous chakra, but that's just a guess, nothing more. Actually, we don't know much about all the four former Hokage's chakra-reserves. Sarutobi was old, Hashirama is considered a god, but we haven't really seen him fight (yet), Tobirama is a Senju, so... And Minato needed less than a minute to wipe the floor with Obito. And if Tsunade is at the bottom of Kage-level (Although: Never forget, that Tsunade is at least one quarter-Uzumaki), Minato certainly wasn't.

    I really enjoy our discussions here. And all I need is about 5.600 posts to catch up with Paulbee's number of posts

    One question: I would like to open a thread, because I have a few theories about Tsunade, Hashirama and the Uzumaki-Clan. Does anybody know whether there already is a thread?

    I'll stop bugging you, we are all waiting for the next chapter.

  7. #107
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    As I recall, the first time we saw Amaterasu was when Jiraiya trapped Itachi and Kisame in the Belly of the Fire Toad at the time, Itachi used Amaterasu to burst out of the toad.

    Recall then that Jiraiya immediately knew what Amaterasu was. My thinking is that Amaterasu must have been seen previously in order for Jiraiya to know about it. While this does not prove that Madara has Amaterasu, it does seem to indicate that it is a somewhat common MS power especially since few Uchihas actually advanced to awaken the MS.

    For my part, I am inclined to keep going the assumption that Amaterasu, Tsukuyomi, and Susanoo Go together as a Threesome Package until Kishimoto tells us more.


    @Lakritze,

    You can safely assume that Hashirama is a Chakra Mega-Beast. As per Madara, he and Hashirama reshaped the landscape when they fought, and those massive scale Mokuton jutsus require a lot of chakra for sure.

    I agree we won't really know much about Minato unless Kishi says something about his chakra, HOWEVER, I want to keep indulging my fantasy by believing that Minato was above average in chakra, not up to Uzumaki levels, but still above average.

    I think that all the jutsus that Minato performed when he fought Tobi were done while he had recieved injuries, and they were high level jutsus, plus he still sealed the Kyuubi in Naruto after being pierced through by the Kyuubi's claw. To me this should at least indicate an above average chakra reserve.
    Last edited by paulbee; 02-19-2013 at 05:55 PM.

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  8. #108
    The Heropon! Sirxxx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    I think that all the jutsus that Minato performed when he fought Tobi were done while he had recieved injuries, and they were high level jutsus, plus he still sealed the Kyuubi in Naruto after being pierced through by the Kyuubi's claw. To me this should at least indicate an above average chakra reserve.
    Or just an insane level of chakra control (I don't know if that's come up yet in this considerable amount of discussion). I've always viewed him as more of strategist than a powerhouse. He's very intelligent, and the intelligent ones always seem to have worse amounts of chakra, but very good control of it.

    Technically, throwing a large amount of chakra out there to grow a tree should get you the same results as using a finite chunk of chakra PERFECTLY to grow the same height of tree.

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  9. #109
    Senior Member Lakritze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    As I recall, the first time we saw Amaterasu was when Jiraiya trapped Itachi and Kisame in the Belly of the Fire Toad at the time, Itachi used Amaterasu to burst out of the toad.

    Recall then that Jiraiya immediately knew what Amaterasu was. My thinking is that Amaterasu must have been seen previously in order for Jiraiya to know about it. While this does not prove that Madara has Amaterasu, it does seem to indicate that it is a somewhat common MS power especially since few Uchihas actually advanced to awaken the MS.

    For my part, I am inclined to keep going the assumption that Amaterasu, Tsukuyomi, and Susanoo Go together as a Threesome Package until Kishimoto tells us more.
    I'd like to think so, too. Yet, are you sure Jiraiya knew about Amaterasu? What he says doesn't look that way:

    Spoiler!


    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    @Lakritze,

    You can safely assume that Hashirama is a Chakra Mega-Beast. As per Madara, he and Hashirama reshaped the landscape when they fought, and those massive scale Mokuton jutsus require a lot of chakra for sure.

    I agree we won't really know much about Minato unless Kishi says something about his chakra, HOWEVER, I want to keep indulging my fantasy by believing that Minato was above average in chakra, not up to Uzumaki levels, but still above average.

    I think that all the jutsus that Minato performed when he fought Tobi were done while he had recieved injuries, and they were high level jutsus, plus he still sealed the Kyuubi in Naruto after being pierced through by the Kyuubi's claw. To me this should at least indicate an above average chakra reserve.
    Believe me, Paulbee, I'd like to think so, too. I don't think we saw more than a glimpse of Minato's power. He was one of the few non-Jinchuuriki-shinobi who was able to deal with a Bijuu-dama so easily. But I don't have any proof, unfortunatelly. However, I hope we will see a bit more soonish.

  10. #110
    Senior Member knife eater's Avatar
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    went back to reread 500-504.. then reread the frog sennin training chapters. minato was not disqualified by sennin requirements.

    -if you disagree that minato had an impressive chakra reserve then the events he dealt with and the jutsu we see him use on catastrophe bound scale.. yoy should at least concede he is nowhere below adequate amount. he has a good helping.

    -pa frog explained to naruto that to use sage chakra you have to balance natural energy, physical energy, and spiritual energy. the balance must be perfect! it was then said that jiraya could not quite balance it perfectly in equal amounts and resulted to his partial transformation and reliance on ma and pa.

    -later in conversation, pa addressed naruto and said to withstand natural energy's influence then you need enormous amounts of chakra. "enormous" is vague because how do we reference jiraya's chakra? if jiraya had enough then wouldn't minato? compare their battles, they both use multiple high level techniques which at least some were proven to need a high price of chakra.

    unless i forgot or missed where it said minato didn't or couldn't train for sage mode with the frogs then the chances of him being capable of sage tech are substantially increased. remember, minato was also thought to be the child of destiny and that should at least have opened some doors for him in the frog mountain.
    _____
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